51 réponses à ce sujet

[Blastaz]

Is it just me or does anyone else wonder who the final war is between? Sure it's between the Mages and the Templars but who exactly are the Mages' allies?

Almost everyone you meet in the game belives in the Maker, the game models a 'medieval' society so most people are religious. Everyone who belives in the Maker seems to think that it's ok to oppress the Mages. Therefore I don't think it is too dangerous to suggest that most of Thedas is A OK with the suppresion of the Mages.

The only people you encounter in either of the two games so far who stand with the mages are either apostates themselves, or their familys. Even many of those who have mages in their families seem extra keen to suppress the mages, due to the shame.

So when the game ends and all out religious war breaks out you have 13 circles (of 100 people each?) on one side vs the entire world on the other. It hardly seems a serious conflict, especially if Hawke wiped out the Kirkwall Circle and the Warden the Ferelden one.

It is suggested that the circles breaking free destroys the Chantry's control, why is it never forshadowed that anyone 'normal' or 'neutral' actually disagrees with the Chantry's solution?

[Crow_22]

I would think that most people who say they support the Chantry do so out of fear, and fear of being shunned.

If you disagree with the Chantry, like during the Medieval period, then you are branded a traitor, heratic, and sometimes killed depending on what the 'crime' is. Templars are, of course, Chantry enforcers and most times get say over any king, queen, or ruler because of their connection to the Chantry.

No to anyone who thinks religion is to blame, it isn't. It's just the fact that people are prone to greed, and power like the Chantry officials have.... Corrupts most.... Mages know of the Chantry's potential cruelty, and some empires, like the Teveniter Empire, will stand with mages. So it just depends on where you are and what culture is it.

And lastly, the reason why no one says anything is again, out of fear. Not ignorance.

Modifié par Crow_22, 28 avril 2011 - 03:13 .

[TJPags]

Most people probably don't think much about it, IMO.

Anyone living in a place without a Circle - and that includes a lot of Ferelden, btw - probably don't run into mages too often. The ones they may run into are either Circle mages, or apostates being hunted by Templars. Or they might simply see Templars.

I have a feeling that for most in Thedas, it's one of those "its just how things are" kind of things. Unless you have a mage in your family, or a Templar in your family.

[Blastaz]

I don't buy that at all. A lot of Bioware fans seem to like bi characters, a lot of Bioware fans like atheism. They project these modern rational values onto a scenario that seems at least in part old fashioned. I get the feeling, from the way npcs react, from what they say that Theadas is a religious society.

That it belives in the Maker out of belife not out ouf fear or ignorance but out of the joy of belife itself. These people will fear the mages, as most npcs do. These people will fear the mages even more when they become dangerous and rebel. I don't see who outside of Tevinter will ally with them.

Confirming the Templar prejudice that all mages are dangerous will just confirm people's belife in the Chantry.

Edit: Basically I am asking who will ally with the mages and make this war serious like it is suggested it is. If it is just 1300 renegade mage bandits, it is unlikely to be bringing the entire world to its knees, regaurdless of how dangerous the mages are individually. They seem to have zero support amongst the peasantry and zero support amongst the aristocracy. How this is a popular civil war that devides the world and threatens the Chantry rather than a dangerous crusade against a thousand powerful blood mages I don't understand.

Modifié par Blastaz, 28 avril 2011 - 03:27 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

I don't think mages, in such a fashion, will ever amass popular support. They will either get apathy or more likely, genuine fear. Most people fear magic and fear a return to a magocracy (whether justified or not). We heard Ferelden gossipers going as far as to say that mages should all die. And that's despite the fact that their problem in the Circle did not affect anyone outside (though Connor of course almost led to the destruction of Redcliffe).

I think most people are at least loosely religious, even if they might not agree with the Chantry completely. When they hear that magic destroyed a Chantry and killed a Grand Cleric, their fear and animosity would probably increase.

Furthermore, according to Cullen, the people always collaborated with Templars to capture mages, except Kirkwall because of Meredith's incompetence. It stands to reason that unless the Templars exceed their limits way too obviously, that most would either side with them or passively sympathize. Remember, outside of Kirkwall, Templars are seen as warriors of justice and truth and are greatly respected.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 28 avril 2011 - 03:27 .

[Crow_22]

Blastaz wrote...

I don't buy that at all. A lot of Bioware fans seem to like bi characters, a lot of Bioware fans like atheism. They project these modern rational values onto a scenario that seems at least in part old fashioned. I get the feeling, from the way npcs react, from what they say that Theadas is a religious society.

That it belives in the Maker out of belife not out ouf fear or ignorance but out of the joy of belife itself. These people will fear the mages, as most npcs do. These people will fear the mages even more when they become dangerous and rebel. I don't see who outside of Tevinter will ally with them.

Confirming the Templar prejudice that all mages are dangerous will just confirm people's belife in the Chantry.

Edit: Basically I am asking who will ally with the mages and make this war serious like it is suggested it is. If it is just 1300 renegade mage bandits, it is unlikely to be bringing the entire world to its knees, regaurdless of how dangerous the mages are individually. They seem to have zero support amongst the peasantry and zero support amongst the aristocracy. How this is a popular civil war that devides the world and threatens the Chantry rather than a dangerous crusade against a thousand powerful blood mages I don't understand.

Talking Mage wise here, Blastaz, I'm a Christian and where do you think they got the religion they use in DA? Mostly Christian values. If you look at Medieval society and society in that, they are similar, and most people are ignorent to what they are told. Templars and the Chantry tell common people a lot of things so people will be afraid to support mages, that's the exact same thing the Catholic Church did in the Medieval era, they kept people ignorent and afraid of 'pagans' when really, they weren't doing anything TO threaten the Catholic Church. 

That's why so few will support mages, because they are afraid of what the Chantry will do and what will happen to their loved ones. Mages are the same way, but like I said, people can only take so much.

[Blastaz]

Crow_22 wrote...


Talking Mage wise here, Blastaz, I'm a Christian and where do you think they got the religion they use in DA? Mostly Christian values. If you look at Medieval society and society in that, they are similar, and most people are ignorent to what they are told. Templars and the Chantry tell common people a lot of things so people will be afraid to support mages, that's the exact same thing the Catholic Church did in the Medieval era, they kept people ignorent and afraid of 'pagans' when really, they weren't doing anything TO threaten the Catholic Church. 

That's why so few will support mages, because they are afraid of what the Chantry will do and what will happen to their loved ones. Mages are the same way, but like I said, people can only take so much.

Christianity in Europe, as a general rule, was a powerful system of belife until the 1750s. People were hapilly killing each other over differences in their interpretation of Christanity in the seventeenth century. You really have to wait untill the enlightenment for religion not to be a big deal.

Dragon Age seems to be set in a 13-14th C society. People at this point were fervent. They belived in their church. Those sorts of people will not be backing a mage revolution. Look at Torquemanda or the influence of religion in the treatment of the Hussites or the Teutonic Order.

Bioware had the option to start a Reformation, and make Hawke a Martin Luther, but I guess they found the idea of a diet of Worms untasty.

[Ollymandias]

Blastaz wrote...

Dragon Age seems to be set in a 13-14th C society. People at this point were fervent. They belived in their church. Those sorts of people will not be backing a mage revolution. Look at Torquemanda or the influence of religion in the treatment of the Hussites or the Teutonic Order.

Bioware had the option to start a Reformation, and make Hawke a Martin Luther, but I guess they found the idea of a diet of Worms untasty.

While elements of the DA setting mirror a 13thC or 14thC society, other aspects are quite far from it.  I think religion is one of the latter set.  I am not sure that extrapolating from real world history works in this case.

You get Aveline who is openly athiest, talks about being openly athiest to Hawke while at work with the door open, but humours religion and says that the Chant of Light sounds pretty.  Morrigan thinks it is absolute rubbish and has to tell Leliana every chance she gets.  

The very religious characters like Sebastian and Leliana are super into the Maker, and Anders is pretty religious too despite the, you know, the shenanigans- or at least, he talks about the Maker a lot... but I think the majority, like Zevran who has been to confession but doesn't seem to care that much, or Alistair who describes himself as "not particularly religious" despite being raised in the Chantry and being ex-Templar, or Fenris who seems to be ambivalent about religion, are passive rather than fervent in their belief.

[ajm317]

Well first of all I don't know that the Circles have "a hundred people each". We don't really know how big the Circles are. I think there is at least circumstantial evidence they could be much larger. When you do the Dissent quest Anders claims the secret entrance you use has saved the lives of "hundreds of mages". This would suggest very large Circles. I wouldn't be surprised if Bioware came in and said each circle had a couple thousand mages. Then there's apostates. Who knows how many of those there are.

But yes, the mages seem doomed from the outset. I'm not entirely sure why the Templars couldn't just wipe out all the Circles at the onset of the rebellion, that is more or less in their job description and what we've seen so far suggests they're equipped to do it.

Politically I don't think it makes a whole lot of sense for any country to side with the mages based on the picture Bioware has painted thus far. That said, I would be at least a little surprised if Ferelden didn't. Ferelden maybe invaded by Orlais soon regardless of the mage-Templar war. Realistically I would think that Ferelden would want to either side with the Templars or stay out of it in order to make it more likely that they could attract allies like Nevarra or the cities of the Free Marches to their aid. Those countries are unlikely to be enthused about a resurgent Orlesian Empire, but Bioware could just ignore that aspect and choose to go with a "mages are Ferelden's secret weapon" storyline.

If it is just mages vs. templars then I suspect that the war will simply provide the opportunity for something else. A Thedas wracked by chaos and deprived of magic will fall easy prey to the Qunari or the Darkspawn. Or something like that.

[DPSSOC]

Blastaz wrote...
Is it just me or does anyone else wonder who the final war is between? Sure it's between the Mages and the Templars but who exactly are the Mages' allies?

Two words; Tevinter Imperium.  A situation like this is what the magisters have been waiting for, a chance to completely drop the charade and return to the glory days of the Imperium where they could use blood magic in broad daylight.  Now admittedly they're fending off the Qunari but I think they'd contribute something to the war effort.

Then you have the Dalish who aren't fans of the Chantry and the Dwarves who'd have a much better market for lyrium from mages than the templars

Blastaz wrote...
So when the game ends and all out religious war breaks out you have 13 circles (of 100 people each?) on one side vs the entire world on the other. It hardly seems a serious conflict, especially if Hawke wiped out the Kirkwall Circle and the Warden the Ferelden one.

True but remember we've seen a very reserved use of magic thus far.  Imagine every mage through blood magic or simple lyrium going full-tilt, that get's pretty dicey.  Also keep in mind


DA:O Spoilers (kinda)


the templars sent a group to go after Jowan (as opposed to a single cook which would've sufficed) suggesting that one-to-one the templars aren't as imposing as their shining armor and skirts would have us believe.

Blastaz wrote...
It is suggested that the circles breaking free destroys the Chantry's control, why is it never forshadowed that anyone 'normal' or 'neutral' actually disagrees with the Chantry's solution?

Probably for the same reason you didn't hear much about "normal" people disagreeing with segregation or any of the other social injustices that were tolerated for so long.  We accept a lot of things because that's how they've always been, and it isn't until someone begins an effort to change it that we start to question it.

[dreadpiratesnugglecakes]

Crow_22 wrote...

Blastaz wrote...

I don't buy that at all. A lot of Bioware fans seem to like bi characters, a lot of Bioware fans like atheism. They project these modern rational values onto a scenario that seems at least in part old fashioned. I get the feeling, from the way npcs react, from what they say that Theadas is a religious society.

That it belives in the Maker out of belife not out ouf fear or ignorance but out of the joy of belife itself. These people will fear the mages, as most npcs do. These people will fear the mages even more when they become dangerous and rebel. I don't see who outside of Tevinter will ally with them.

Confirming the Templar prejudice that all mages are dangerous will just confirm people's belife in the Chantry.

Edit: Basically I am asking who will ally with the mages and make this war serious like it is suggested it is. If it is just 1300 renegade mage bandits, it is unlikely to be bringing the entire world to its knees, regaurdless of how dangerous the mages are individually. They seem to have zero support amongst the peasantry and zero support amongst the aristocracy. How this is a popular civil war that devides the world and threatens the Chantry rather than a dangerous crusade against a thousand powerful blood mages I don't understand.

Talking Mage wise here, Blastaz, I'm a Christian and where do you think they got the religion they use in DA? Mostly Christian values. If you look at Medieval society and society in that, they are similar, and most people are ignorent to what they are told. Templars and the Chantry tell common people a lot of things so people will be afraid to support mages, that's the exact same thing the Catholic Church did in the Medieval era, they kept people ignorent and afraid of 'pagans' when really, they weren't doing anything TO threaten the Catholic Church. 

That's why so few will support mages, because they are afraid of what the Chantry will do and what will happen to their loved ones. Mages are the same way, but like I said, people can only take so much.

Ah.  I see.  People won't support the poor oppressed mages because the Chantry will come and kill them...couldn't be because people know that Tevinter mages still keep slaves and actually send slavers to other countrys to abduct people; couldn't be because people remember how the Chantry came to be; it was created out of revolution against a mage empire...no.  In your world, the evil Chantry just appeared and locked the mages up for no reason.  If you're going to participate in the debate, learn the lore.  I'm not interested in your opinion of the Catholic church or how much you don't like organized religion.  Stick to the facts of the game.

Chantry came about from Andraste's march; kicked Tevinter out of most of Thedas.  Mage rule was not benevolent or pleasant; remember the codex entry about how many thousands of slaves died so the mages could send their physical bodies into the fade.  Not all mages just want to be free to run around and chase hookers.  Some want to practice blood magic and treat common people like science experiements.  Chantry solution may not be the best but it beats having blood mages running around setting houses on fire.  Common people aren't more afraid of the chantry than the mages; remember the blood mages operating in Denerim?  The common people can remember very easily the bad old days.  Don't drag your own wishful thinking into the argument.  The mage revolution is going to create more problems than it solves.

[IanPolaris]

Blastaz wrote...

Is it just me or does anyone else wonder who the final war is between? Sure it's between the Mages and the Templars but who exactly are the Mages' allies?

Just to keep it simple, probabably many of the Anti-Orlesian nobility that has been itching to take the Chantry down a peg or three and regain control over their own lands.  Fereldan is one such, Kirkwall would be another except the Templars have taken over....but the rest of the Free Marches have learned how 'noble and altruistic' the Templars are...believe me.  Also there are potentially the Dalish, and the real wild-card is Orzammar which would probably LOVE to see the Chantry knocked down a couple of pegs so they can sell Lyrium on the open market.....and they owe Fereldan.

Really I don't think the popular opinion is going to matter much because the popular opinion in Thedas seems to be very maleable to the whims of the ruling nobility (at least in Thedas) assuming good or competant rulers.....it will be the secular royalty, nobiilty, and upper-middle class landed classes that will matter....and the Chantry (and Templars) have taken them for granted for far too long.

The Qunari are another wild-card as well.  I expect that when the mage revolt breaks out, the Qunari decide to invade.  I would in their place.  That gives the mages yet another very powerful card when dealing with the secular nobility.  Back us (or at least treat us like the human beings and elves that we are) or fall to the Qunari due to lack of magical support for your armies.

The sides are a lot more even than you think.

-Polaris

[Augustei]

Mage support will come from possibly the families of some mages, King Alistair Theirin. People might think Tevinter but I really highly doubt Tevinter will give their support since the Magisters wont want foreign mages in their realm as they are political competition. I like IanPolaris's idea of Orlesian nobility that makes sense.

Qunari? I doubt it, they are very untrusting of Saarebas so free as the mages, they kill people who talk to them.

They might possibly get Nevarran support who will want to bring Orlais down a notch since thats where the chantry is centralised. They definitly wont get Anderfels support thats for sure as they are devoted Andrastians and their Grey Warden leaders wont want to break their neutrality or divide their ranks as they recruit mages as well. Antivan crows a greedy and will go where the gold is.. which will be the chantry, Rivain might side with mages since the rivani seers which are revered are mages and they aren't really Andrastians. Free Marches I doubt it and its a centralised Templar power anyway.

So Ferelden, Possibly some Nobility in Orlais and Possibly Nevarra.. But yeah Chantry support will far outweigh Mage support thats for sure. Dwarves will go where the money is as well which will be the chantry so mages will be cut off from their lyrium as well.

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 28 avril 2011 - 06:19 .

[Ollymandias]

dreadpiratesnugglecakes wrote...

Ah.  I see.  People won't support the poor oppressed mages because the Chantry will come and kill them...couldn't be because people know that Tevinter mages still keep slaves and actually send slavers to other countrys to abduct people; couldn't be because people remember how the Chantry came to be; it was created out of revolution against a mage empire...no.  In your world, the evil Chantry just appeared and locked the mages up for no reason.  If you're going to participate in the debate, learn the lore.  I'm not interested in your opinion of the Catholic church or how much you don't like organized religion.  Stick to the facts of the game.

Chantry came about from Andraste's march; kicked Tevinter out of most of Thedas.  Mage rule was not benevolent or pleasant; remember the codex entry about how many thousands of slaves died so the mages could send their physical bodies into the fade.  Not all mages just want to be free to run around and chase hookers.  Some want to practice blood magic and treat common people like science experiements.  Chantry solution may not be the best but it beats having blood mages running around setting houses on fire.  Common people aren't more afraid of the chantry than the mages; remember the blood mages operating in Denerim?  The common people can remember very easily the bad old days.  Don't drag your own wishful thinking into the argument.  The mage revolution is going to create more problems than it solves.

Chantry says that unfettered magic results in abominations or tyranny, but that is pretty much scaremongering.

Yes the Tevinters have a horrible culture and do horrible things, but not all societies who don't lock up their mages descend into abomination-riddled carnage or tyranny of the mageocracy scenarios.

The Dalish and the Rivaini and the Chasind not being mageocratic tyrannies where the common man is enslaved demonstrate that magic does not necessarily lead straight to oppression.

[IanPolaris]

Here's how I see it breaking down:

1.  The Templars have revolted against the Chantry too.  Don't forget that detail.  That means that the Templars no longer have the sanctity of the Chanty to hide behinds, and nobles tend to take a dim view of armed thugs roaming their lands and hunting their subjects...at least not without their OK.  This is one reason why I think much of the secular nobility in Thedas will actually wind up breaking the mage's way...not because they love mages, but they love Templars a lot less, and a rogue army is a lot more real and immediate threat to noble power than a handful of apostates ever will be.

2.  The chantry has become corrupt and arrogant and has taken it's moral leadership over Thedas for granted for far too long.  You might have thought that what happened in at the end of the Orlesian Occupation of Fereldan would have been a warning to the Chanry to ease up on interfering with local politics....but the Divine(s) clearly didn't pay attention.  That's going to come home to roost.  Already by the end of DA2, we have Ferelden openly declaring itself to be a mage-haven and essentially ignoring the oversight of the Chantry.  Given Orlesian hatred in Fereldan and given that the Chantry has already been nearly expelled once, I think that Fereldan will go "Church of England" on the Chantry and the Chantry will Declare an Exalted March on Fereldan....just to discover that calling an Exalted March is kind of pointless when nobody shows up for one (which is what the RCC discovered with the later Crusades).

3.  Once Fereldan has shown that it can make an open break with the Chantry an survive, it, expect Nevarra, Antiva, and many other nations to do the same.

4.  It's at this point when the war is at it's hottest that the Qunari invade.  I am not saying the Qunari will take one side or the other.  In fact I severely doubt they would care.  However, without the support of battle-magic, the Andrastian nations don't have a snowflake's chance in hell of repelling the Qunari....and the mages aren't going to help repell the Qunari for free.......

-Polaris

[Curry Noodles]

I'd imagine that there will actually be quite a few leaders and countries who support the mages. Previously the chantry controlled all mage activity. Now, with the circles rebelling against the chantry, the normal authorities have the chance to get their own personal mages. Of course there's the danger of blood magic or mind control or whatever, but look at kirkwall; apostate mages find work with mercenary and smuggling groups, who are willing to pay a ton of money for them.

Just imagine how much a noble would pay for a personal mage to melt the faces of anybody he chooses.

[DKJaigen]

What some people already said: the chantry based states are very reliant on mages to protect them form either the qunari or the tevinter imperium. both nations will no doubt take advantage of this.

Furthermore Anders blowing up the chantry demonstrated that mages can perform acts of sabotage that is simply unrivalled in all of thedas. mages can go into form guerillia warfare that will leave most nations crippeled.

[Deztyn]

Ollymandias wrote...

Chantry says that unfettered magic results in abominations or tyranny, but that is pretty much scaremongering.

Connor, Amelia and the Tevinter Imperium are just the Chantry scaremongering?

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Blastaz wrote...

Is it just me or does anyone else wonder who the final war is between? Sure it's between the Mages and the Templars but who exactly are the Mages' allies?

This is just a theory, but considering how rampant blood magic seemed to be in Kirkwall and how blood magic is supposed to be powerful enough to influence minds, if some of the mages are organised and subtle they could gain allies through subversion.

But if you mean genuine allies, I don't know. Maybe we're supposed to believe the mages are powerful enough to be an army unto themselves (even if not all mages are interested in rebellion).

It is suggested that the circles breaking free destroys the Chantry's control, why is it never forshadowed that anyone 'normal' or 'neutral' actually disagrees with the Chantry's solution?

Varric reckons his way of telling it was better?

We keep getting reminded that all endgame information isn't to be taken as solid fact but rumour and hearsay, so...

[Maria13]

IanPolaris wrote...

Here's how I see it breaking down:

1.  The Templars have revolted against the Chantry too.  Don't forget that detail.  That means that the Templars no longer have the sanctity of the Chanty to hide behinds, and nobles tend to take a dim view of armed thugs roaming their lands and hunting their subjects...at least not without their OK.  This is one reason why I think much of the secular nobility in Thedas will actually wind up breaking the mage's way...not because they love mages, but they love Templars a lot less, and a rogue army is a lot more real and immediate threat to noble power than a handful of apostates ever will be.

2.  The chantry has become corrupt and arrogant and has taken it's moral leadership over Thedas for granted for far too long.  You might have thought that what happened in at the end of the Orlesian Occupation of Fereldan would have been a warning to the Chanry to ease up on interfering with local politics....but the Divine(s) clearly didn't pay attention.  That's going to come home to roost.  Already by the end of DA2, we have Ferelden openly declaring itself to be a mage-haven and essentially ignoring the oversight of the Chantry.  Given Orlesian hatred in Fereldan and given that the Chantry has already been nearly expelled once, I think that Fereldan will go "Church of England" on the Chantry and the Chantry will Declare an Exalted March on Fereldan....just to discover that calling an Exalted March is kind of pointless when nobody shows up for one (which is what the RCC discovered with the later Crusades).

3.  Once Fereldan has shown that it can make an open break with the Chantry an survive, it, expect Nevarra, Antiva, and many other nations to do the same.

4.  It's at this point when the war is at it's hottest that the Qunari invade.  I am not saying the Qunari will take one side or the other.  In fact I severely doubt they would care.  However, without the support of battle-magic, the Andrastian nations don't have a snowflake's chance in hell of repelling the Qunari....and the mages aren't going to help repell the Qunari for free.......

-Polaris

This is the Reformation, is it not? with the added threat of a Mongoul/Hun/Ottoman invasion in the wings...

[ddv.rsa]

IanPolaris wrote...

Also there are potentially the Dalish, and the real wild-card is Orzammar which would probably LOVE to see the Chantry knocked down a couple of pegs so they can sell Lyrium on the open market.....and they owe Fereldan.

It would be unbelievably stupid for the dwarves to involve themselves in a conflict between the mages and templars. Or even worse, a world war.

Firstly, they're locked in a perpetual war against the darkspawn and are struggling just to survive. During the Blight the majority of the darkspawn went topside to attack Ferelden. That took a lot pressure off the dwarves and put them in a position to send troops to assist the Grey Wardens (not Ferelden -difference). More than a decade later, almost all the darkspawn will be back underground, and the Broodmothers will have replaced their casualties. The battle will be back at full intensity.

So why would Orzammar put itself in the position of having to fight a very risky two front war? Sure, the Chantry controls the lyrium trade, but their mages and templars are the only real customers anyway. If the Chantry lost their monopoly these groups would just start buying directly. It's not like they would get a huge new customer base. So what's the big payoff for such an extreme risk?

On the other hand, they stand to lose many warriors and if things go badly, much needed supplies from the surface (food, wood, etc). Considering their dwindling population and the darkspawn threat, they can't afford either, much less the possible military response should the mages lose.

Lastly, how do you figure Orzammar owes Ferelden a thing? If anything, it's the other way around. The only possible way is if a dwarf noble arranged military assistance as their boon, but I'd say that's a rare case. Even then, I can't see either Bhelen or Harrowmont risking their kingdom to win freedom for mages on the surface.

[Sussurus]

From what I've seen with companions and non templar - mages.
Is that no one really gives a fig, until their house gets burned down.

Too many other problems of day to day issues are going on, it really does not matter if a mage can Abominate you when a merc can just as easily walk up behind and gut you.

With the Boom now, people will have to take sides.
Tevinter is just as strong if not more so than Orlais, Ferelden under any ruler is likely to see the advantages of mage support.
The empress sems to have a secret, and I get the feeling she may be a mage, or anti chantry somewhat.

Look at the the merc band and elven smuggler group, they'll pay a lot and keep paying for an apostate.
Think how many other groups would love an open market and are willing to side in favour of mages for their own ends.

Modifié par Sussurus, 28 avril 2011 - 11:24 .

[IanPolaris]

ddv.rsa wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Also there are potentially the Dalish, and the real wild-card is Orzammar which would probably LOVE to see the Chantry knocked down a couple of pegs so they can sell Lyrium on the open market.....and they owe Fereldan.

It would be unbelievably stupid for the dwarves to involve themselves in a conflict between the mages and templars. Or even worse, a world war.

You are looking at it the wrong way.  The Dwaves would no doubt want to stay out, but there is no way the Chantry/Templars will let them.  The supply of Lyrium to the Templars is the Templars huge Achilles Heel (and Kal Sharok doesn't seem to have access to Lyrium) so the Templars would no doubt try to force Orzammar to back them and/or the Chantry...and that would be a recipie for disaster especially given that Orzammar is smack in the middle of Fereldan, a declared mage-haven.

Firstly, they're locked in a perpetual war against the darkspawn and are struggling just to survive. During the Blight the majority of the darkspawn went topside to attack Ferelden. That took a lot pressure off the dwarves and put them in a position to send troops to assist the Grey Wardens (not Ferelden -difference). More than a decade later, almost all the darkspawn will be back underground, and the Broodmothers will have replaced their casualties. The battle will be back at full intensity.

Yes, but Orzammar (assuming King Bhelen which seems to be the default) not only is using the casteless to bolster their armies, but they ALSO are getting real military assistance from Fereledan....and that has actually given the Dwarves the upper hand at least for now.

Does King Bhelen submit to chantry threats or help his friend King Alistair who has helped him (including helping him get on the throne in the first place along with the Hero of Fereldan!)

I think that answer is clear. 

So why would Orzammar put itself in the position of having to fight a very risky two front war? Sure, the Chantry controls the lyrium trade, but their mages and templars are the only real customers anyway. If the Chantry lost their monopoly these groups would just start buying directly. It's not like they would get a huge new customer base. So what's the big payoff for such an extreme risk?

Again, you are looking at it the wrong way.  The Chantry/Templars can not and thus will not let Orzammar be.  Even the vague possibility that King Bhelen could cut off the Lyrium any time he wanted to would be too much power to let remain in "Heathen" hands in time of war...especially whose "Heathen" King is good friends with an "Enemy of the Faith" (King Alistair).

On the other hand, they stand to lose many warriors and if things go badly, much needed supplies from the surface (food, wood, etc). Considering their dwindling population and the darkspawn threat, they can't afford either, much less the possible military response should the mages lose.

Lastly, how do you figure Orzammar owes Ferelden a thing? If anything, it's the other way around. The only possible way is if a dwarf noble arranged military assistance as their boon, but I'd say that's a rare case. Even then, I can't see either Bhelen or Harrowmont risking their kingdom to win freedom for mages on the surface.

King Alistair helped the Hero of Fereldan put King Bhelen (who seems to be default) on the throne, and King Bhelen has made it very clear that he strongly supports his friends (and likewise goes to great lengthns to depose his enemies).  Dwokin makes that clear in DAA.

Yes it would be stupid for Orzammar to initiate conflict with the Chantry/Templars, but it's almost certian that the Chantry/Templars will initiate conflict with Orzammar if only to secure their lyrium in time of war.

-Polaris

[Ulicus]

King Aeducan has made it very clear that he'll do anything to get into, and remain in, power. Beyond that... I'm not so sure. I think his position would depend entirely on who had the most to offer Orzammar.

I'd like to think he'd stand by Ferelden though.And I think that makes the most sense. Ferelden are never going to be able to turn around and declare an Exalted March on him, for one thing.

Modifié par Ulicus, 28 avril 2011 - 12:06 .

[ddv.rsa]

IanPolaris wrote...

Yes, but Orzammar (assuming King Bhelen which seems to be the default) not only is using the casteless to bolster their armies, but they ALSO are getting real military assistance from Fereledan....and that has actually given the Dwarves the upper hand at least for now.

-Polaris

To the best of my knowledge, Ferelden only gives military assistance if a dwarf warden requested it as their boon. Is their any indication this happens otherwise? If not, you're talking about quite a rare case. I also don't know how many of the three pre-made Origins saves have Bhelen as king, so I can't comment on him being the defaullt.

Even if Bhelen is king, for the first time in generations they've retaken some ground. Wouldn't they need the manpower to consolidate their gains? In addition to Orzammar, they're retaken Kah'Hirol and at least a few other thaigs. That's a lot of ground to defend.