51 réponses à ce sujet

[ddv.rsa]

That's an interesting thought.. the Chantry might try to recruit the dwarves. After all, wouldn't they be the ideal soldiers to fight mages? The Chantry could also offer a lot more than Ferelden could. If Bhelen was willing to turn on his own brothers, he'll be willing to turn on his "friend" Alistair.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Orzammar would never join in the war, and neither the Templars nor the mages would try force them to. You don't go try and force a nation with absolute monopoly on the commodity you need, to join your cause. You outbit your competitor.

[Cyaxares]

Chantry is not on the side of Templars or mages. Templars who want to hunt mages are also considered rebels by chantry, as can be seen from ending video. Chantry wants to stop the war. So for Templars it would be also be difficult to find allies.

[Deztyn]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Orzammar would never join in the war, and neither the Templars nor the mages would try force them to. You don't go try and force a nation with absolute monopoly on the commodity you need, to join your cause. You outbit your competitor.

This.

If you can't conquer them outright, you have to play nice. Orzammar has the power here.

I doubt the dwarves would want to get involved, all the speculation that they'll do so by choice relies on a warden making specific decisions in game. It make some sense for a Dawrf Warden who made Bhelen king. But why would Harrowmont (Or his successor) choose to aid Anora in a war when the Warden was a City Elf?

Modifié par Deztyn, 28 avril 2011 - 05:39 .

[LobselVith8]

Blastaz wrote...

So when the game ends and all out religious war breaks out you have 13 circles (of 100 people each?) on one side vs the entire world on the other. It hardly seems a serious conflict, especially if Hawke wiped out the Kirkwall Circle and the Warden the Ferelden one.

It is suggested that the circles breaking free destroys the Chantry's control, why is it never forshadowed that anyone 'normal' or 'neutral' actually disagrees with the Chantry's solution?

I think there are 12 Circles now, since the Starkhaven Circle burned down and the Circle of Kirkwall is decimated (with "many survivors" who go to the other remaining Circles if Hawke sides with the mages). And I'd wonder if the Grey Warden mages will be able to maintain their neutrality. I can imagine that a pro-mage Hero of Ferelden who asked for the emancipation of the Circle of Ferelden (and seen as blessed by the Maker among the people of the nation, as Queen Anora stated at the royal ceremony) could be as much of a hero to the mages as a pro-mage Hawke who prevented the annihilation of the Circle mages.

Knight-Captain Cullen mentions that people are helping mages in Act I, so not everyone believes in the Chantry controlled Circles. It's the never-endng debate over who is right and wrong.

[88mphSlayer]

i think it'll mostly come down to "alliance through convenience"

at some point one side or the other is going to have to step on toes to fight the other, those toes stepped on will fight to protect themselves and form alliances

[Agamo45]

 The mages have no chance, the Chantry has the people on their side, and they seem more than willing to help hunt down maleficars.

[ddv.rsa]

Agamo45 wrote...

 The mages have no chance, the Chantry has the people on their side, and they seem more than willing to help hunt down maleficars.

Maybe so. But two things:

1) The Templars are no longer with the Chantry. Apparantley the Chantry wants peace.

2) What the people want is largley irrelevant in medieval politics. The outcome of the war depends on who rulers and nobility decide to back.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Orzammar would never join in the war, and neither the Templars nor the mages would try force them to. You don't go try and force a nation with absolute monopoly on the commodity you need, to join your cause. You outbit your competitor.

You are assuming that the Templars (or Chantry) would recognize the fact that a war with Orzammar is a war they can not win.  I don't believe based on their past behavior they would recognize that.  Based on their past behavior and the fact that the Dwarves have NO agreement with the Templars (only the Chantry), I think the Templar would think Orzammar would be a pushover (the Divine already considered an Exalted March against Orzammar) and that would be that.

-Polaris

[t0mm06]

IanPolaris wrote...

Here's how I see it breaking down:

1.  The Templars have revolted against the Chantry too.  Don't forget that detail.  That means that the Templars no longer have the sanctity of the Chanty to hide behinds, and nobles tend to take a dim view of armed thugs roaming their lands and hunting their subjects...at least not without their OK.  This is one reason why I think much of the secular nobility in Thedas will actually wind up breaking the mage's way...not because they love mages, but they love Templars a lot less, and a rogue army is a lot more real and immediate threat to noble power than a handful of apostates ever will be.

2.  The chantry has become corrupt and arrogant and has taken it's moral leadership over Thedas for granted for far too long.  You might have thought that what happened in at the end of the Orlesian Occupation of Fereldan would have been a warning to the Chanry to ease up on interfering with local politics....but the Divine(s) clearly didn't pay attention.  That's going to come home to roost.  Already by the end of DA2, we have Ferelden openly declaring itself to be a mage-haven and essentially ignoring the oversight of the Chantry.  Given Orlesian hatred in Fereldan and given that the Chantry has already been nearly expelled once, I think that Fereldan will go "Church of England" on the Chantry and the Chantry will Declare an Exalted March on Fereldan....just to discover that calling an Exalted March is kind of pointless when nobody shows up for one (which is what the RCC discovered with the later Crusades).

3.  Once Fereldan has shown that it can make an open break with the Chantry an survive, it, expect Nevarra, Antiva, and many other nations to do the same.

4.  It's at this point when the war is at it's hottest that the Qunari invade.  I am not saying the Qunari will take one side or the other.  In fact I severely doubt they would care.  However, without the support of battle-magic, the Andrastian nations don't have a snowflake's chance in hell of repelling the Qunari....and the mages aren't going to help repell the Qunari for free.......

-Polaris

Dont forget that if the Wardens do swing one way or the other (lest face it, they may or may not get involved depends if they view a world war as a good opertunity for darkspawn or not)
But IF they did swing one way it would be to fereldan, with its Warden king, and Hero. 

[Sussurus]

The wardens have no loyalty to the hero or king, sadly to say.
They have the Anderfels already, Wiesupt fortress is seen by many none native warden as just as dangerous as the darkspawn themselves.
The true power of the wardens is not your PC, at least not yet.

Orlais has the majority warden population in the area, and seems to be dependant on the empress.
Depending on her stance and if the grand cleric is a rival, she may at best be neutral.

Modifié par Sussurus, 28 avril 2011 - 11:18 .

[TJPags]

All this talk about what Orzamar will do is based on so much speculation it's basically meaningless:

1.  King Behlan - Bhelan is not always King.

2.  King Bhelen owes Alistair - See above, and Alistair may not even have been present during the events of Orzamar.

3.  King Bhelen owes King Alistair - See above, and Alistair is not always King.

4.  King Bhelen owes Ferelden - See above, and the Warden could easily have been a dwarf, or an elf.

5.  Ferelden is a mage haven - which you only learn if Alistair is King - see above.

6.  Pro-mage Warden - Who says the Warden is pro-mage?

7.  Ferelden owes the Warden who may be pro-mage - See above, and don't forget Ferelden was just ravaged by both a Blight and a Civil War.  And has never been the most powerful of nations.

It's all well and good to speculate in this manner, but it's speculation based on one world state out of so many variables it's like a house of cards.

[Wulfram]

Orsino seems to be able to get some support at the start of Act 3. Of course, that's because under Meredith the Templars are pissing everyone off by taking over the city, but it shows that the Templars can forfeit popular support.

[DPSSOC]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Orzammar would never join in the war, and neither the Templars nor the mages would try force them to. You don't go try and force a nation with absolute monopoly on the commodity you need, to join your cause. You outbit your competitor.

I wouldn't say never.  At first the war's going to be great for business because the mages are going to want lyrium by the boat load to work powerful mojo and the templars just need it.  Eventually though neither side is going to have anything to trade with at which point the Dwarves start to feel the pinch.  So eventually they're going to have to choose a side or the Noble Caste is going to lose their surface luxuries (and we'll see how well that sits).

I actually believe that who the Dwarves side with will be the deciding factor.  Whoever they choose the other side essentially has their lyrium supply cut.  For mages this means they can't do as much big magic and lyrium potions become more and more precious, and the templars just face lyrium withdrawl.

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Orzammar would never join in the war, and neither the Templars nor the mages would try force them to. You don't go try and force a nation with absolute monopoly on the commodity you need, to join your cause. You outbit your competitor.

You are assuming that the Templars (or Chantry) would recognize the fact that a war with Orzammar is a war they can not win.  I don't believe based on their past behavior they would recognize that.  Based on their past behavior and the fact that the Dwarves have NO agreement with the Templars (only the Chantry), I think the Templar would think Orzammar would be a pushover (the Divine already considered an Exalted March against Orzammar) and that would be that.

-Polaris

Why on flying earth would the Templars ever think that? The Templars arent stupid. They are not about to open a second front with a party who aren't even involved in the first place. The Templars would never try to force the Dwarves into anything. If anything it is the mages (as they lack a reputation), who would try and coerce the Dwarves into an unfavorable deal.

[EmperorSahlertz]

DPSSOC wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Orzammar would never join in the war, and neither the Templars nor the mages would try force them to. You don't go try and force a nation with absolute monopoly on the commodity you need, to join your cause. You outbit your competitor.

I wouldn't say never.  At first the war's going to be great for business because the mages are going to want lyrium by the boat load to work powerful mojo and the templars just need it.  Eventually though neither side is going to have anything to trade with at which point the Dwarves start to feel the pinch.  So eventually they're going to have to choose a side or the Noble Caste is going to lose their surface luxuries (and we'll see how well that sits).

I actually believe that who the Dwarves side with will be the deciding factor.  Whoever they choose the other side essentially has their lyrium supply cut.  For mages this means they can't do as much big magic and lyrium potions become more and more precious, and the templars just face lyrium withdrawl.

If anything, it is the Chantry which is going to force Orzammar to maintain their monopoly. Just because the Templars and Mages left, doesn't mean they are powerless. It is merely a branch which has broken off. The majority of Thedas is still Andrastian, and the Dwarves will recognize the most lucrative market. If the Chantry is the only one with Lyrium, they can force both the mages and Templars to fall in line.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Why on flying earth would the Templars ever think that? The Templars arent stupid. They are not about to open a second front with a party who aren't even involved in the first place. The Templars would never try to force the Dwarves into anything. If anything it is the mages (as they lack a reputation), who would try and coerce the Dwarves into an unfavorable deal.

The Templars and Chantry both have long-standing reputations of underestimating heathens, and in many cases they were already openly considering an Exalted March on Orzammar.  Yes, the Templars who seem to select for radical belief over brains are very prone to thinking that.  So are the Divines.  Just per a quick read of the world's history.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

If anything, it is the Chantry which is going to force Orzammar to maintain their monopoly. Just because the Templars and Mages left, doesn't mean they are powerless. It is merely a branch which has broken off. The majority of Thedas is still Andrastian, and the Dwarves will recognize the most lucrative market. If the Chantry is the only one with Lyrium, they can force both the mages and Templars to fall in line.

If the Chantry tries this, they likely force a war with Orzammar, a war they can not win.  That doesn't mean the Chantry (or Templars) aren't dumb enough to try because I think they are.

-Polaris

[DPSSOC]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
I wouldn't say never.  At first the war's going to be great for business because the mages are going to want lyrium by the boat load to work powerful mojo and the templars just need it.  Eventually though neither side is going to have anything to trade with at which point the Dwarves start to feel the pinch.  So eventually they're going to have to choose a side or the Noble Caste is going to lose their surface luxuries (and we'll see how well that sits).

I actually believe that who the Dwarves side with will be the deciding factor.  Whoever they choose the other side essentially has their lyrium supply cut.  For mages this means they can't do as much big magic and lyrium potions become more and more precious, and the templars just face lyrium withdrawl.

If anything, it is the Chantry which is going to force Orzammar to maintain their monopoly.  Just because the Templars and Mages left, doesn't mean they are powerless.  It is merely a branch which has broken off.

Black Knight: 'tis but a scratch.  Seriously though with it's military arm gone exactly how are they going to enforce their monopoly?

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
The majority of Thedas is still Andrastian, and the Dwarves will recognize the most lucrative market. If the Chantry is the only one with Lyrium, they can force both the mages and Templars to fall in line.

If all it took to keep the mages and templars in line was lyrium how'd the situation get out of control in the first place?  Even so the only group that could be reigned in by the Chantry controlling lyrium are the templars because of their addiction.  Mages could still choose to go down swinging relying on personal reserves of magic (basic mana regeneration vs lyrium potions) or turning to blood magic.

I will give you that the majority of Thedas is still Andrastian but are they really going to commit to a war against Fereldan, people who will not take kindly to foreign armies "passing through" particularly Orlesians, as well as the Dwarves?

Modifié par DPSSOC, 29 avril 2011 - 03:35 .

[Deztyn]

An Exalted March with an army drawn from all the Andrastian nations and the Templars is a bit different to a group of rogue templars with unknown resources raging a private war against a heavily fortified enemy.

Just saying.

[JnEricsonx]

So as I understand it, the core Chantry itself still is hoping for peace, like the former Elthina, but the vast majority of Templars, have, what, left the Chantry and gone on their own Mage-hunting war?

[IanPolaris]

JnEricsonx wrote...

So as I understand it, the core Chantry itself still is hoping for peace, like the former Elthina, but the vast majority of Templars, have, what, left the Chantry and gone on their own Mage-hunting war?

Pretty much and with the Templars gone, most of the Chantry's ability to "influence" nations outside of Orlais has gone with it.  I would see this as a perfect time for an ambitious King Bhelen to "renegotiate" his deal with the Templars given the Templars no longer have the support of the Chantry.....or IMHO more likely, the Templars trying to seize Orzammar by force lest the heathens get any bright ideas about extorting them with lyrium.

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Why on flying earth would the Templars ever think that? The Templars arent stupid. They are not about to open a second front with a party who aren't even involved in the first place. The Templars would never try to force the Dwarves into anything. If anything it is the mages (as they lack a reputation), who would try and coerce the Dwarves into an unfavorable deal.

The Templars and Chantry both have long-standing reputations of underestimating heathens, and in many cases they were already openly considering an Exalted March on Orzammar.  Yes, the Templars who seem to select for radical belief over brains are very prone to thinking that.  So are the Divines.  Just per a quick read of the world's history.

-Polaris

They thought about an Exalted March, it never happened. Why do you think it never happened? Because they would gain nothing from it.

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

If anything, it is the Chantry which is going to force Orzammar to maintain their monopoly. Just because the Templars and Mages left, doesn't mean they are powerless. It is merely a branch which has broken off. The majority of Thedas is still Andrastian, and the Dwarves will recognize the most lucrative market. If the Chantry is the only one with Lyrium, they can force both the mages and Templars to fall in line.

If the Chantry tries this, they likely force a war with Orzammar, a war they can not win.  That doesn't mean the Chantry (or Templars) aren't dumb enough to try because I think they are.

-Polaris

What? Why on earth would that cause a war with Orzammar? Orzammar is the supplier of Lyrium, they are the ones who get all the money in this case, they wouldn't care about who they sell it to. An open market is not more lucrative than what the Dwarves got right now.

IanPolaris wrote...

JnEricsonx wrote...

So as I understand it, the core Chantry itself still is hoping for peace, like the former Elthina, but the vast majority of Templars, have, what, left the Chantry and gone on their own Mage-hunting war?

Pretty much and with the Templars gone, most of the Chantry's ability to "influence" nations outside of Orlais has gone with it.  I would see this as a perfect time for an ambitious King Bhelen to "renegotiate" his deal with the Templars given the Templars no longer have the support of the Chantry.....or IMHO more likely, the Templars trying to seize Orzammar by force lest the heathens get any bright ideas about extorting them with lyrium.

-Polaris

And this is where you are wrong. The Templars is NOT what made the Chantry able to influence other countries. FAITH is the reason for that. For some reason you insist on believing that the Chantry has always forced all other countries than Orlais to do what they tell them to. What you fail to realize, is that the other countries aren't forced, they follow the Chantry willingly, out of faith.
If the Dwarves keep supplying lyrium, the Templars has no reason at all to go to war with Orzammar. If the Dwarves were to stop supplying Lyrium to the Templars, and keep supplying mages, then they would have a reason.

[mangiraffe dog000]

I've come to warn you about MAN-GIRAFFE-DOG!! It's the single greatest threat to humanity!! RUN AWAY!!



I'm still more Serial than ever guys.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

They thought about an Exalted March, it never happened. Why do you think it never happened? Because they would gain nothing from it.

It's only been seven years since the blight.  Not all that long....and what would the chantry gain?  Control over magic from the mine to the final distribution.  Non-control of the source of lyrium is the one ****** in the Chantry's control over magic and everyone knows it.

What? Why on earth would that cause a war with Orzammar? Orzammar is the supplier of Lyrium, they are the ones who get all the money in this case, they wouldn't care about who they sell it to. An open market is not more lucrative than what the Dwarves got right now.

Au Contraire.  Having multiple buyers when you have a monopoly on a precious resource is always more profitable.  Also the Templars are no longer with the Chantry.  You keep forgetting that.  That means the Templars can't expect Orzammar to keep supplying them unless forced and that is cause for war right there.

And this is where you are wrong. The Templars is NOT what made the Chantry able to influence other countries. FAITH is the reason for that. For some reason you insist on believing that the Chantry has always forced all other countries than Orlais to do what they tell them to. What you fail to realize, is that the other countries aren't forced, they follow the Chantry willingly, out of faith.

You think the Chantry controls other nations and has kept nations in line because of faith???

Seriously???   Really???????



The nobility (which are the ones that count) have as much faith in the Chantry as their RL counter parts did during Rennessiance Europe which is to say none at all.  The Chantry in Thedas right now is first and formost a POLITICAL animal not a religious one.  You forget this at your peril.

This is why Fereldan going "Church of Engand" is such a dire and real threat.  The Peasents don't really care who the Chantry's political masters are.... as long as they can worship they way they always have in peace.  Remember that Fereldan very nearly went Church of England already because the Chantry openly backed a hated Orlesian Occupation.

If the Dwarves keep supplying lyrium, the Templars has no reason at all to go to war with Orzammar. If the Dwarves were to stop supplying Lyrium to the Templars, and keep supplying mages, then they would have a reason.

If the Dwarves declare that the Templar contracts are null and void because they are not part of the Chantry anymore, that would be reason enough.  For that matter, the Chantry might demand the Dwarves stop selling to the Rebelious Templars which would also be reason enough.

There are lots of reasons why Orzammar is not going to be able to sit this one out, and from what I can tell will most likely gravitate to the mages because of poliitcal and geographic realilties.

-Polaris