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Buy, that's right, BUY the newest DAII DLC item packs. Really?!


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#1
Robtachi

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Seriously? After the tremendous outcry from the fanbase for some sort of compensation for the (now) months of waiting on patches to fix game breaking bugs, glitches and freezes, we get...

Three item packs, each of which include one set of armor and a weapon, for $3 each, a la Mass Effect.*

*worth mentioning though not altogether related that it is disturbing to see just how much DAII is borrowing from ME's success, rather than being left to make its own way as a franchise.

Since Dragon Age II's release, Bioware fans and forum users have been crying out for some sort of recognition of our aguish at a product that is universally accepted as having been pushed out the door too quickly.  Some indication that Bioware - a developer that would not and could not exist were it not for well over a decade of zealous dedication, hundreds of dollars worth of games purchased and thousands of hours spent playing those games by its loyal fans - acknowledges and appreciates we, the players.  No such luck.

I would like to point out something I found incredibly telling that I read only moments after seeing news about the new DLC:

David Gaider wrote...

It's true that some people seem
intent on making the forums pretty toxic. As someone pointed out above,
however, we're pretty much used to filtering out the extremes of
opinion-- for the most part I think it's safe to assume that fans are so
passionate because they care, and that those who engage in gross
hyperbole do so because they either believe this makes their opinion
more convincing or because they think that shouting above everyone else
is the only way to get heard.

That doesn't mean their problems
don't exist. We recognize that. At the same time, it doesn't exactly
make it an environment where we can engage in much discussion-- if
discussion is actually desired, which sadly doesn't seem to always be
the case.

What's good is that there are people who do make a
point of expressing their concerns in a thoughtful and intelligent
manner despite all the static. We are reading them, and while
some folks seem to take anything positive being said about DA2 as a
blanket dismissal of anyone who didn't enjoy it, that's really not the
truth. It's silly to say that no-one has issues just as it's silly to
say everyone did. As always, we'll look at the feedback and take it into
consideration as we move forward-- there's really not much more to say
at this point, other than announcements will be forthcoming from those
who make such things (which is not me).


Just so we are clear, this is in no way an attack on David Gaider in any form whatsoever, so please do NOT allow your input to degrade to that impertinent and ultimately unhelpful level.  As the Lead Writer we are all well aware he has little to do if anything at all with the manner in which DLC is released.  He simply happens to be the one making a point which I feel screams out for illumination.

I try very hard, as do most others, I feel, as a fan base to not speak in wild hyperbole and mutually destructive emotional extremes.  As Mr. Gaider says, that is no way to be heard and taken seriously.

The problem is, frankly sometimes Bioware makes it really damn hard not to, with this as a perfect example.  In a virtually unanimous voice, we have been calling for some sort of indication that Bioware, as Mr. Gaider claims they do, does actually care what their fans want and believe is fair and in the best interest of the franchise.  And yet, while some of us are STILL waiting to take our pre-ordered or release date copies of DAII off the shelf, dust them off, and finally continue with our campaign, we are given the first DLC which amounts to little more than the addition and installation of a few extra lines of code and some low resolution textures.  And what's more, we are expected to pay $9; well more than the Return to Ostagar DLC for Origins which could certainly be argued was something that significantly enriched the playing experience.

Some of us asked for a free first DLC.  Some of us asked for something in-depth to add to the story.  But the underlying theme in what was typically a common request was that whatever Bioware did next, they make it worth our trouble.  Make it worthwhile, show us that you do listen and you do care, and we can all make an effort in kind to be reasonable and patient.

I cannot state this plainly and without bias enough, but this is the dead wrong message to send to your loyalists. "By the way, your game still may not work, but in the mean time, buy this extra thing that while interesting is utterly superficial."  I am sorry, but that is not good enough.  That's not even good.  It's awful.

I am loathe to speak in such extremes because it is the shortest path to being ignored, but when being shown this level of disregard, you can only react with what is natural and what you feel is fair.

And in my fair opinion, it feels like Bioware has just hacked a metaphorical loogie right in my eye.  Again.


Ignore me if you wish.  If you feel my opinions are too hyperbolic, then it is your prerogative and responsibility to do ignore them.  But it does not change the fact that the feeling is there, and it is very, very real.

Modifié par Robtachi, 28 avril 2011 - 05:06 .


#2
Maria Caliban

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Robtachi wrote...

Buy, that's right, BUY the newest DAII DLC item packs.

Okay. ^_^

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 28 avril 2011 - 05:06 .


#3
Guest_Puddi III_*

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Yep, really.

#4
Robtachi

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Maria Caliban wrote...

Robtachi wrote...

Buy, that's right, BUY the newest DAII DLC item packs.

Okay. ^_^


Well, enjoy it. I, on the other hand, will continue to hope to see something more worthwhile come out as some kind of good faith gesture towards Bioware's fans.  And you'll be able to enjoy that DLC too, I hope.

#5
Kileyan

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Personally I don't think magical items are worth the price of this DLC, but I hold no ill will toward putting it out there. Folks that appreciate it will buy it, that is all that matters.

I do however think that the item diversity in the game, especially armor was very lacking, and should be patched, not sold.

Perhaps it is just that that the Dragon Age series itemization is kinda odd to me, especially DA2. There is basically a token set per chapter, and basically anything else you find in the entire game is trash. The only good stuff is on vendors. It is just odd and backwards to my rpg roots and tastes. I'm used to uncovering great treasures in forgotten ruins and caves. Not collecting moth eaten scarves by the dozens in old caves, so that i can shop for great magic items 80 meters from the front door to my house.

#6
Hathur

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Game is too easy as is on nightmare, I see no reason to make it easier with powerful new items. Kinda over priced as well when I think about Mass Effect 2's firepower pack DLC, etc.

Modifié par Hathur, 28 avril 2011 - 05:16 .


#7
Pacifien

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Robtachi wrote...
Seriously? After the tremendous outcry from the fanbase for some sort of compensation for the (now) months of waiting on patches to fix game breaking bugs, glitches and freezes, we get...

Back in my day, games had bugs and sometimes they were fixed, sometimes they weren't, and sometimes the game sucked, sometimes it didn't, and you just accepted it even though you spent $60 on the game. 'Cause they gave you a cloth map.

Obviously, this is what is missing from the Dragon Age franchise to ensure the fans are properly appeased.

#8
Robtachi

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Kileyan wrote...

Personally I don't think magical items are worth the price of this DLC, but I hold no ill will toward putting it out there. Folks that appreciate it will buy it, that is all that matters.

I do however think that the item diversity in the game, especially armor was very lacking, and should be patched, not sold.

Perhaps it is just that that the Dragon Age series itemization is kinda odd to me, especially DA2. There is basically a token set per chapter, and basically anything else you find in the entire game is trash. The only good stuff is on vendors. It is just odd and backwards to my rpg roots and tastes. I'm used to uncovering great treasures in forgotten ruins and caves. Not collecting moth eaten scarves by the dozens in old caves, so that i can shop for great magic items 80 meters from the front door to my house.


Well I won't argue with you there, especially if you're like me and your gaming experience thrived on that kind of questing and adventuring in a Bioware title.

What concerns me is that this was Bioware's first move after being leveled with criticism about the technical polish of DAII.  A paid DLC, which countless people still cannot use because of game-breaking issues, and one that while appealing (I never said I would never purchase it), adds little or nothing to our experience, rather than making a small sacrifice for the purpose of extended a proverbial olive branch to a jilted fan base.

It's just downright perplexing PR.

#9
Maria Caliban

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Robtachi wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Robtachi wrote...

Buy, that's right, BUY the newest DAII DLC item packs.

Okay. ^_^

Well, enjoy it. I, on the other hand, will continue to hope to see something more worthwhile come out as some kind of good faith gesture towards Bioware's fans.  And you'll be able to enjoy that DLC too, I hope.

I have tons of DLC.

I'm interested in an expansion pack, which is something BioWare can't put out in a couple months, and I expect to pay for it.

I understand people would like a good faith gesture because they feel DA II is an inferior product. I don't feel that way, but I have sympathy. That said, the most good faith gesture you'll see is a free copy of ME 2.

Even if BioWare did come out with an Enhanced Edition, it 1) wouldn't alter many of the complaints people have. It would change what BioWare agrees was a bad idea, 2) wouldn't come out until at least winter.

Suspending all DLC and expansion work for an EE would be poor business.

#10
axl99

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It's really been almost 2 months, but sure. Months. Whatever.There's constructive, and then there's vitrol. Constructive for Bioware is when a suggestion is technically feasible enough to be implemented. Chances are it's a matter of trying to make sure said suggestion in the new fix won't result in more bugs.

Many people have already finished DA2 without the item packs. It's not like we really need them.

#11
Robtachi

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Pacifien wrote...

Robtachi wrote...
Seriously? After the tremendous outcry from the fanbase for some sort of compensation for the (now) months of waiting on patches to fix game breaking bugs, glitches and freezes, we get...

Back in my day, games had bugs and sometimes they were fixed, sometimes they weren't, and sometimes the game sucked, sometimes it didn't, and you just accepted it even though you spent $60 on the game. 'Cause they gave you a cloth map.

Obviously, this is what is missing from the Dragon Age franchise to ensure the fans are properly appeased.


You would have to be specifically speaking about PC titles (unless "your day" indicates less than 5 years ago), which unfairly shoehorns the rest of us into your category of player.

I'd like to know one mainstream title from a developer as large and well-regarded as Bioware that was released "in your day", full retail, with a myriad of scenarios that make it unplayable or unable to complete from a purely technological aspect.

Before video games became wildly popular and lucrative, developers could never get away with it, lest they run themselves into the ground.  Now they can, because the demographic is so massive and diverse, there will always be customers.  But that doesn't make it right and it doesn't mean we should sit around and swallow it and ask for more.

#12
Pacifien

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Ultima VIII.

Now you can start the part about EA.

#13
Robtachi

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Maria Caliban wrote...

Robtachi wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Robtachi wrote...

Buy, that's right, BUY the newest DAII DLC item packs.

Okay. ^_^

Well, enjoy it. I, on the other hand, will continue to hope to see something more worthwhile come out as some kind of good faith gesture towards Bioware's fans.  And you'll be able to enjoy that DLC too, I hope.

I have tons of DLC.

I'm interested in an expansion pack, which is something BioWare can't put out in a couple months, and I expect to pay for it.

I understand people would like a good faith gesture because they feel DA II is an inferior product. I don't feel that way, but I have sympathy. That said, the most good faith gesture you'll see is a free copy of ME 2.

Even if BioWare did come out with an Enhanced Edition, it 1) wouldn't alter many of the complaints people have. It would change what BioWare agrees was a bad idea, 2) wouldn't come out until at least winter.

Suspending all DLC and expansion work for an EE would be poor business.


I just want to clarify - what I am offering as my feeling on why DA2 was an inferior product on release is its technical failings that led to in many players' cases not even being able to complete and/or enjoy the game fully.  My opinions on the game's merits/failings are independent and don't compute in the feeling that Bioware should be offering some contrition in the acknowledgment that they released something that from a technical perspective was not ready, as if it were so.  Instead they chose to do this, which I find just a little insulting, honestly.

#14
Robtachi

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Pacifien wrote...

Ultima VIII.

Now you can start the part about EA.


And you know what? Fans of Ultima would have every bit the right to demand and expect recompense from the developer for a product released technologically underdeveloped yet sold as finished.  Furthermore, where is the Ultima franchise now?  Pretty much non-existent, no?  Maybe these issues contributed to that, maybe not, but that fact does not exactly lend support to a counter-argument that this kind of practice is acceptable.

Modifié par Robtachi, 28 avril 2011 - 05:39 .


#15
axl99

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On the bright side at least we don't have to buy a patch. Now that I can see myself taking issue on.

#16
Pacifien

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Robtachi wrote...

And you know what? Fans of Ultima would have every bit the right to demand and expect recompense from the developer for a product released technologically underdeveloped yet sold as finished.  Furthermore, where is the Ultima franchise now?  Pretty much non-existent, no?  Maybe these issues contributed to that, maybe not, but that fact does not exactly lend support to a counter-argument that this kind of practice is acceptable.

If we're talking about the practice of DLC for something as frivolous as armor, I'd share that rant. People pleaded for the promised Appearance Pack #2 for Mass Effect 2. People buy gestures for Atlas and P-body in Portal 2. People value these things and I don't know why. DLC is a micropayment system that works in its deception of being small amounts such that someone might not recognize the accumulation of cost over time or might not care about the accumulation of cost because they can afford a few dollars at a time. Or they're Completionist. Sure, I have strong feelings about the worth of DLC, but that doesn't matter.

What matters in this thread is whether I feel people deserve compensation for Dragon Age 2. If they feel they need to be compensated because the game wasn't what they expected, then no. If they feel they need to be compensated because they have been unable to play the game in the past 2 months, then... actually, no. I could play the game on my PC which is likely on the low end of system specifications which could run the game. It wasn't perfect but nothing was game breaking such that I would be unable to access and complete most of the game. I am aware that the development team is working on patches, which need to be tested and approved for all three platforms before release.

In the meantime, the company releases DLC that you pay for. A practice I already have issues with. And as I already feel that compensating those unhappy with a game they either disliked or feel in unplayable isn't exactly something the company should be doing, tying your argument against DLC with your need for compensation doesn't do much for me.

But I suppose making the post in the first place was simply your way of trying to let the company know that you want compensation and my saying that I don't think you should get any doesn't get either of us anywhere seeing as I'm not the attention you seek.

#17
savagesparrow

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Neverwinter 1 was regarded as a terrible game until they capitalized on scenarios developed by the modding community for the expansion packs, and because of those expansion packs, it's held in super high regard. So maybe we'll get a Hoards of the Underdark for DA 2. But that stuff takes time.

Personally, I found my experience with DA 2 enjoyable, though perhaps not as fulfilling storywise as DA:O. So I'm looking forward to storybased DLC, and hope that they devote the time necessary to deliver something really cool instead of being pressured into releasing something buggy and half-assed before it's ready. While an armor pack isn't for me, like someone said above, there're people into that sorta thing.

And in any event, like all DLC it's optional. Voice opinions with (or without) your dollar ;x

Modifié par savagesparrow, 28 avril 2011 - 05:58 .


#18
Ariella

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Robtachi wrote...

Pacifien wrote...

Ultima VIII.

Now you can start the part about EA.


And you know what? Fans of Ultima would have every bit the right to demand and expect recompense from the developer for a product released technologically underdeveloped yet sold as finished.  Furthermore, where is the Ultima franchise now?  Pretty much non-existent, no?  Maybe these issues contributed to that, maybe not, but that fact does not exactly lend support to a counter-argument that this kind of practice is acceptable.


What contributed to the Ultima franchise disappearing is the rise of the MMO abomination called UO. The point is, going as far back as Bard's Tale or Ultima 7 (which while fun could be very buggy) you paid your money and took your chances as there was no way to even deliver a patch in any timely, realistc fashion.

Welcome to the internet age, suddenly patching programs is feasable, but still costs money out of the developement budget. DLC in some way solves that problem because it's a ready stream of finances. I'm also willing to bet that Mr. Melo and the rest of the DLC developement team are probably working on story based DLC as well, but that does take longer. So, if my five bucks for some nice equipment (especially on the rogue end which was sparce in my opinion), also contributes to Bioware's a revenue stream, thus giving them a chance to do more patches, my five bucks are well spent. And if ,hopefully, more story DLC and even expansions come down the pipe, I'll see what they are and see about putting up cash for them to. Anything that expands or extends the life of a game I enjoy is a good thing in my eyes.

#19
marshalleck

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Robtachi wrote...
I cannot state this plainly and without bias enough, but this is the dead wrong message to send to your loyalists.


Took you long enough to get to the point. You feel you're owed something "interesting" for free because you bought the game--the same old "we're loyal, you owe us!" song and dance.

I really don't understand this mentality. You paid for a game, you got a game. The fact that the game was not to your liking doesn't mean Bioware owes you anything else. If the game is broken then sure, Bioware needs to patch it to a functional state. But even then, what you deserve is a patch, not new story content DLC for free.

You aren't a special case, and your "loyalty" doesn't make you deserving of handouts. In fact it's your "loyalty" that is probably the root cause of the problem here; you rushed out and bought a game without thinking or pausing to look at reviews or listen to word of mouth, and now you think you're owed compensation for your rash decision-making? No. This attitude of entitlement is just as sickeningly greedy as EA cashing in on the Dragon Age name by pushing shovelware out the door with 1.5 years development time. 

Modifié par marshalleck, 28 avril 2011 - 06:10 .


#20
MingWolf

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Pacifien wrote...
If we're talking about the practice of DLC
for something as frivolous as armor, I'd share that rant. People pleaded
for the promised Appearance Pack #2 for Mass Effect 2. People buy
gestures for Atlas and P-body in Portal 2. People value these things and
I don't know why. DLC is a micropayment system that works in its
deception of being small amounts such that someone might not recognize
the accumulation of cost over time or might not care about the
accumulation of cost because they can afford a few dollars at a time. Or
they're Completionist. Sure, I have strong feelings about the worth of
DLC, but that doesn't matter.


*chuckle*  I own every single DLC for DA:O and ME2, so I definately fall in that category of not recognizing the accumulation of cost; its tremendous and I've never tried looking back to think about it :).  I love collecting stuff for games I love though, so its money well spent.  

Anyways,
it seems a little ironic that they would release itempacks given so
much criticism about them over the past weeks, especially when the
feelings for this game comes in so mixed.  Its not hard to see the
motivation behind such moves [cough] $$$ [/cough].  It would have been
the wiser to release something like a story DLC first before this, if anything, just to keep some people appeased.  Not taking a side on this argument, however, and as said, its better to voice your opinion with what you spend and don't spend. 

#21
Lycidas

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Wait... 400BW Points for some items? That's it - just 3 item sets? The stuff the community did hundeds of for free for Origins for the price of Return to Ostagar which added 45 min worth of content including VO? Wow BioWare thats an all time low.

#22
marshalleck

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Lycidas wrote...

Wait... 400BW Points for some items? That's it - just 3 item sets? The stuff the community did hundeds of for free for Origins for the price of Return to Ostagar which added 45 min worth of content including VO? Wow BioWare thats an all time low.


You're free to not pay for it, you know? It's actually something like ~40 items total, but whatever. Go ahead and keep acting like someone is bending your arm, forcing you to buy the item packs. 

#23
Guest_Puddi III_*

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marshalleck wrote...

You aren't a special case, and your "loyalty" doesn't make you deserving of handouts.


Here I thought you said "doughnuts," and I thought it'd be awfully nice if BioWare sent me some doughnuts, whether I deserve them or not.

#24
lobi

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Filament wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

You aren't a special case, and your "loyalty" doesn't make you deserving of handouts.


Here I thought you said "doughnuts," and I thought it'd be awfully nice if BioWare sent me some doughnuts, whether I deserve them or not.

Ah yes "DLC Doughnuts", the supposedly tasty treats from Bioware bakery. We have dismissed that claim.

Modifié par lobi, 28 avril 2011 - 06:19 .


#25
Robtachi

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Ariella wrote...

So, if my five bucks for some nice equipment (especially on the rogue end which was sparce in my opinion), also contributes to Bioware's a revenue stream, thus giving them a chance to do more patches, my five bucks are well spent.


Then what was the $60 spent on the game itself for? Shouldn't that have been "money well spent" towards a product that did not contain issues that prevent players from playing the game?  I don't disagree with you that money paid for DLC in turn helps the development of further content, but to be expected to pay additional money on top of what's already been spent for a game that is still not fixed is not a fair thing to ask of your consumer.

marshalleck wrote...

Robtachi wrote...
I cannot state this plainly and without bias enough, but this is the dead wrong message to send to your loyalists.


Took
you long enough to get to the point. You feel you're owed something
"interesting" for free because you bought the game--the same old "we're loyal, you owe us!" song and dance.

I
really don't understand this mentality. You paid for a game, you got a
game. The fact that the game was not to your liking doesn't mean Bioware
owes you anything else. If the game is broken then sure, Bioware needs
to patch it to a functional state. But even then, what you deserve is a patch, not new story content DLC for free.

You
aren't a special case, and your "loyalty" doesn't make you deserving of
handouts. In fact it's your "loyalty" that is probably the root cause
of the problem here; you rushed out and bought a game without thinking
or pausing to look at reviews or listen to word of mouth, and now you
think you're owed compensation for your rash decision-making? No. This
attitude of entitlement is just as sickeningly greedy as EA cashing in
on the Dragon Age name by pushing shovelware out the door with 1.5 years
development time. 


Yet you seem to totally miss my point. I stated clearly that my issue is not with the quality of the game. My opinion of it is totally independent of my concerns I brought up, in fact.  From
a technical standpoint, this game was released in an unacceptable
condition and while a patch is certainly expected and being delivered,
it's not as if the game has yet been fixed so it can be played properly.
 For this to remain the case after all this
time, what is EXPECTED is a little bit of compromise for the people who
paid full retail price on a game that is to this very second still
unplayable for some of those players.  My
loyalty was simply a way for me to personally illustrate my perspective,
not act as if I am entitled to something that a newer player is not.  Anyone
who paid full price for this game is entitled to what in my feeling is
necessary compensation because of the game's condition, not its quality.

Pacifien wrote...



Robtachi wrote...



And you
know what? Fans of Ultima would have every bit the right to demand and
expect recompense from the developer for a product released
technologically underdeveloped yet sold as finished.  Furthermore, where
is the Ultima franchise now?  Pretty much non-existent, no?  Maybe
these issues contributed to that, maybe not, but that fact does not
exactly lend support to a counter-argument that this kind of practice is
acceptable.


If we're talking about the practice of DLC
for something as frivolous as armor, I'd share that rant. People pleaded
for the promised Appearance Pack #2 for Mass Effect 2. People buy
gestures for Atlas and P-body in Portal 2. People value these things and
I don't know why. DLC is a micropayment system that works in its
deception of being small amounts such that someone might not recognize
the accumulation of cost over time or might not care about the
accumulation of cost because they can afford a few dollars at a time. Or
they're Completionist. Sure, I have strong feelings about the worth of
DLC, but that doesn't matter.



What matters in this thread is
whether I feel people deserve compensation for Dragon Age 2. If they
feel they need to be compensated because the game wasn't what they
expected, then no. If they feel they need to be compensated because they
have been unable to play the game in the past 2 months, then...
actually, no. I could play the game on my PC which is likely on the low
end of system specifications which could run the game. It wasn't perfect
but nothing was game breaking such that I would be unable to access and
complete most of the game. I am aware that the development team is
working on patches, which need to be tested and approved for all three
platforms before release.



In the meantime, the company releases
DLC that you pay for. A practice I already have issues with. And as I
already feel that compensating those unhappy with a game they either
disliked or feel in unplayable isn't exactly something the company
should be doing, tying your argument against DLC with your need for
compensation doesn't do much for me.



But I suppose making the
post in the first place was simply your way of trying to let the company
know that you want compensation and my saying that I don't think you
should get any doesn't get either of us anywhere seeing as I'm not the
attention you seek.




Well my concern is not meant as a commentary towards the merits of DLC.  I have bought DLC in the past and will probably continue to do so, though it's not exactly my favorite idea.  My
issue is with the quality and value of the DLC being released and the
fact that its being conducted as "business as usual" when for many of
us, it is not business as usual because we cannot even play our games.