347 réponses à ce sujet

[Reinveil]

Day one.

[ransompendragon]

I am pretty solidly in the "hater" camp although I have tried to keep my feedback in the realm of constructive and not hyperbole. I have yet to see any hyperbole on this forum that is not eclipsed by the hyperbole that is act 3 of this game.

BUT, I am the one who bought the game after hating the demo AND was stupid enough to pre-order AFTER the "free" Sebastian offer ended AND was stupid enough to buy that too. It is merely a truism that DLC will ruin games because all these years later WE are still buying horse armor and it won't stop until WE stop buying it.

[Zjarcal]

Robtachi wrote...

Bioware released DA2, bugged and glitched so that it was not playable in the way they themselves admitted they intended it.  As of yet, they are not done patching it so that people may play it properly.  In addition, they have released DLC as if business were being conducted as normal. How am I the crazy one for feeling that is a poor message to send to your customers particularly after being so adamant that they are listening to our concerns with this franchise and weighing their options carefully?

How exactly does releasing an item pack mean that they are not listening to your concerns? They ARE working on more patches (and gathering community feedback over at the tech support forums). Should they simply not do anything else while the patches are being worked on and tested? It's not like having the artists work on creating items delays the other team working on the patches.

Robtachi wrote...
What I am saying is that the correct move would have been to make such a small DLC like this complimentary for those of us who have not been able to have the full DA2 experience as intended despite our purchase.  

The "correct" move? 

Robtachi wrote...
If this DLC was so quick and easy for Bioware to churn out, why not just make it a free gift? That would certainly have said so much more to the notion that "Bioware is the company that cares" ™ than "by the way we're still working so that some of you can pick the game off the shelf but here's $9 worth of extraneous stuff if you want it"

Why? You bought a game and you got a game. The game is being patched. Patches are the only thing that they owe you and they are working on them (having already released two).

They don't owe you any free gifts.

[John Epler]

mousestalker wrote...

Eurypterid wrote...
Just a note on this: the devs have explained in other threads that due to QA concerns it's much easier and quicker for community members to throw a fix together for issues than it is for BioWare to get them out in a patch. This is due in part to the fact they have to test extensively to be sure the fix doesn't end up breaking something else, as well as waiting for approval to put the patches out the door. This process takes far longer than it does for a community member to throw a fix together.

Which is the main reason my preference is, to the extent that resources are allocated between toolset release and dlcs, the toolset release be given priority. It puts the tools to remedy bugs in the hands of the many and speeds up the process.

On the meta note, as a PC player, mods extend the life of a game for me. They make me happier with a game. I loathed most Oblivion games on release. That I like them now is due entirely to the modding community. I'm probably an outlier as for as the typical gamer, but my early DA2 purchase was very much an anomaly for me and is not likely to reoccur.

tl/dnr version: The greater the ability to mod a game, the more likely mousestalker buys it. DLC's do not factor into the equation at all.

The caveat here, unfortunately, is that DLC, patches and toolset release for the public all require rather different resource allocation. DLC is almost entirely content creation - there's very little programming necessary. Maybe a few workflow changes to the tools to make life easier for those of us using them, or to address concerns that were raised when working on DA2, but it's almost entirely content side - Design, Art, Audio and QA. It should be noted, of course, that QA is the one resource that appears in all three with similar representation. Though when it comes to item packs and the like, the distribution is mostly Art, with some QA and minimal Design representation, mostly to stat out the items and make sure they don't break anything elsewhere in the game.

Patches involve both groups, though there isn't really much for Art to do in a patch. Nor, for that matter, for the majority of Design - there isn't really much for Cinematic Design or Writing to do in a patch, for example, though Tech Design is likely going to hop in and fix a few bugs. So all of those groups tend to be allocated to DLC. Programming also enters the picture here, as there are certainly bugs that can only be fixed by them - so while you wouldn't have much in the way of programming resources for DLC, you'll have them for patch work. And, of course, QA once again needs to test the patch to ensure that it A) fixes what it's supposed to fix and doesn't break anything else.

And finally, there's any work involved in releasing the toolset. Here, it's almost entirely Programming. Design, Art, Audio - there's nothing much for us to do, aside from maybe provide occasional feedback along the lines of 'if you release it to the public you need to make sure that X and Y work properly or else there's no point in letting them do Z'. QA is necessary to test the tools, so you have to get them involved, but aside from that it's all Programming.

So DLC doesn't really preclude the toolset, which doesn't really preclude patching. Though there's some resource sharing, each of the three has its own unique allocation that shouldn't interfere with the others. That's not always the case, but as a general rule it's pretty accurate.

[Everwarden]

Zjarcal wrote...
They don't owe you any free gifts.

Nope, they don't. Though if they had any integrity (they don't) left they would be tossing them out as apologies left right and center hoping to retain the fanbase they just risked losing.

[Zjarcal]

Everwarden wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...
They don't owe you any free gifts.

Nope, they don't. Though if they had any integrity (they don't) left they would be tossing them out as apologies left right and center hoping to retain the fanbase they just risked losing.

They don't have any integrity left. I see. 

Thanks for the information. 

[Blood-Lord Thanatos]

Everwarden wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...
They don't owe you any free gifts.

Nope, they don't. Though if they had any integrity (they don't) left they would be tossing them out as apologies left right and center hoping to retain the fanbase they just risked losing.

Thats what you think, sir.

[Master Shiori]

Everwarden wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...
They don't owe you any free gifts.

Nope, they don't. Though if they had any integrity (they don't) left they would be tossing them out as apologies left right and center hoping to retain the fanbase they just risked losing.

Apologies for what exactly? Not making the game you imagined in your mind?

There was plenty of information, gameplay videos, previews and even a demo out there before DA2 was released, so you knew full well what you're getting. If you're not happy with the game then I'm sorry, but that's not Bioware's problem.

They gave you free items before the launch, 7 of which were available to everyone regardless of whether they pre-ordered or not. They released 2 patches so far to address the bugs and other issues within the game and are working on the third as we speak.

Sorry, but Bioware has been more than fair to their fanbase despite constant flaming and occasional insults directed at them from the so called "fans" on these forums.

[Lusitanum]

[quote]88mphSlayer wrote...

i think you're taking the darkspawn chronicles way too seriously...

besides all bioware games fail if you look at them from the perspective of the villians [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/whistling.png[/smilie]
[/quote]

I'm taking it too seriously because when they mentioned "an alternate version of the game where you play as a Darkspawn after the Warden died in the Joining" I imagined all the things that would have changed. Ferelden would have been crushed without the army you had to gather, Loghain had free reign to do whatever he wanted and most of your party members would never have been involved with the war in any way because they never met you, all of this probably ending with some epic final moment where you just crushed the last pocket of resistants (probably led by Alistair) like bugs beneath your heel.

Instead... no, none of that happened. Alistair still gathered the army and his party, just like you did, and somehow managed to fortify Denerim in a way that you never managed to.

That's why I say it makes me feel irrelevant on the original game.

[quote]Master Shiori wrote...

Apologies for what exactly? Not making the game you imagined in your mind?[/quote]

No, for making a crappy, rushed game at full price with tons of questionable marketing moves to make it sell better.

I wouldn't mind if DA2 turned into a RTS mixed with a shooter with puzzle elements (seriously, I'll play anything) but I have one very small condition: it has to actually be a good game! That means an interessting combat system, a fair challenge, interessting locations and characters, etc. etc. Not a game that dissapoints me so much, I can't even bring myself to finishing it!

[/quote]

[quote]Master Shiori wrote...

There was plenty of information, gameplay videos, previews and even a demo out there before DA2 was released, so you knew full well what you're getting. If you're not happy with the game then I'm sorry, but that's not Bioware's problem.[/quote]

Unless you were a true fan and pre-ordered the game, in which case you pretty much only had Bioware's word that they wouldn't screw this game up and that they were working hard to make it good.

And they lied to us. Big time.

[quote]Master Shiori wrote...They gave you free items before the launch, 7 of which were available to everyone regardless of whether they pre-ordered or not. [/quote]

You mean the crap that I sold because I had no need for it and was completely unnecessary. Yeah, they can have it. Can I have my old, ethical Bioware back now, please?

[quote]Master Shiori wrote...

They released 2 patches so far to address the bugs and other issues within the game and are working on the third as we speak.[/quote]

Oh goodie, they released patches that fixed some of the many bugs caused because they decided to rush the game in order to cash-in while the franchise had its name going for it. Oh, they shouldn't have. I mean, it's lot like they're basically fixing what they royally screwed up in the first place or anything...

[quote]Master Shiori wrote...

Sorry, but Bioware has been more than fair to their fanbase despite constant flaming and occasional insults directed at them from the so called "fans" on these forums.[/quote]

Because fans are like friends: the ones that you have a pretty good relationship will always say how good you are and agree with everything you say so they won't hurt your feelings.

True friends, on the other hand, will slap you in the back of the head when you do something stupid and tell you to stop being an idiot and straighten out. Because they care more about you than about themselves and would risk their friendship for the sake of not seeing you get into trouble for your mistakes.

If we didn't care, we would just write off Bioware as another Activision and say "OK, not buying anything else from those guys, now back to playing something that's actually worth my time" instead of trying to get them out of the tough spot they're in.

[mousestalker]

How do post game freebies equate to integrity? I love free stuff as much as the next pony and will gladly scarf up anything offered, but no one owes us that.

Integrity has to do with being fair and open in your dealings and following through on promises made. By that standard, Bioware has behaved with integrity.

@JohnEpler, thank you for your explanation of how things work behind the scenes. In your judgment, if we were to bombard the programmers with pastries would we be more likely to bend them to our will or would they just get fat?

[Reinveil]

Master Shiori wrote...

Apologies for what exactly? Not making the game you imagined in your mind?

There was plenty of information, gameplay videos, previews and even a demo out there before DA2 was released, so you knew full well what you're getting. If you're not happy with the game then I'm sorry, but that's not Bioware's problem.

Ah.  These arguments again.  So the bugs, repeated environments, lessened character interaction, thin and disjointed "story", excessive fetch quests, waves in close quarters, etc were all documented prior to release?

Not that I agree with OP, mind you.  For your money, all you're really entitled to is a game that doesn't explode when you boot it up.  If we could demand free content every time we were disappointed with something...well, we'd be sitting on a lot of free content.    Hell, Obsidian would be mailing me royalty checks.

But the whole "everyone doesn't like it because it's different" argument doesn't hold much water.  The grievances against DAII are numerous, and can't be generalized so easily.  My own opinion is that the idea is sound enough, it's just the execution that didn't work.

[neppakyo]

@Reinveil

Thats one of the main staying points floating around the forums. the idea of the story was fine, but horrible execution.

[Maria Caliban]

John Epler is awesome.

That is all.

[Darthbill52]

Pacifien wrote...

if we're talking about the practice of DLC for something as frivolous as armor, I'd share that rant. People pleaded for the promised Appearance Pack #2 for Mass Effect 2. People buy gestures for Atlas and P-body in Portal 2. People value these things and I don't know why. DLC is a micropayment system that works in its deception of being small amounts such that someone might not recognize the accumulation of cost over time or might not care about the accumulation of cost because they can afford a few dollars at a time. Or they're Completionist. Sure, I have strong feelings about the worth of DLC, but that doesn't matter.

What matters in this thread is whether I feel people deserve compensation for Dragon Age 2. If they feel they need to be compensated because the game wasn't what they expected, then no. If they feel they need to be compensated because they have been unable to play the game in the past 2 months, then... actually, no. I could play the game on my PC which is likely on the low end of system specifications which could run the game. It wasn't perfect but nothing was game breaking such that I would be unable to access and complete most of the game. I am aware that the development team is working on patches, which need to be tested and approved for all three platforms before release.

In the meantime, the company releases DLC that you pay for. A practice I already have issues with. And as I already feel that compensating those unhappy with a game they either disliked or feel in unplayable isn't exactly something the company should be doing, tying your argument against DLC with your need for compensation doesn't do much for me.

But I suppose making the post in the first place was simply your way of trying to let the company know that you want compensation and my saying that I don't think you should get any doesn't get either of us anywhere seeing as I'm not the attention you seek.

I cant disagree with any of this I agree 100%, the words couldnt have been said better by myself.  Thanks Pacifien, at least not the world has gone crazy lol.

[Marionetten]

JohnEpler wrote...

So DLC doesn't really preclude the toolset, which doesn't really preclude patching.

That's excellent... so where is the toolset? I mean, as an AAA developer BioWare is expected to actually deliver. Bethesda plans to have their toolset released alongside Skyrim. Day one. Yet here we have you guys making the same excuse time after time and all we end up seeing is horse armor. My point here is that this doesn't help unless you guys plan to back it up with an actual effort. Between all the misguided marketing, questionable design decisions and disappointments it's becoming increasingly difficult to be a BioWare fan.

Don't get me wrong. I don't feel any ill will towards you, BioWare or anyone else who works there. Quite the opposite. You guys have given me a lot of joy over the years and I'm thankful for that. It's just getting to a point where I'm not sure if I want to continue supporting BioWare as a business as I'm seeing some disturbing business practices emerging. And while I can't speak for anyone else this seems to be a fairly common trend around these parts. I find that unfortunate.

The name you guys have built up over the years at BioWare has been irrevocably stained due to what I view as some very self-destructive events. Surely you can't all be utterly oblivious to it? Surely someone voiced some concern over the idea of releasing horse armor of all things in the wake of Dragon Age II's failure? You guys practically poured salt right into an open and infected sore here. Damn. You're all either crazy or too ballsy for your own good. Bad start. Get better.

As a side note, I'm still waiting for the European bazaar. One promise at a time, yes?

Modifié par Marionetten, 29 avril 2011 - 12:37 .

[Reinveil]

neppakyo wrote...

@Reinveil

Thats one of the main staying points floating around the forums. the idea of the story was fine, but horrible execution.

Indeed, yet time and again the game's defenders want to throw out accusations of "elitism", "entitlement", "hating", and basically anything that doesn't require the consideration that maybe, just maybe, the game has some issues.  You don't even have to believe that yourself, but I'd say at this point it's pretty damn clear the reaction has been overwhelmingly mixed, and there's probably some reasons for that.

"You don't like it because you're doing it wrong" doesn't explain the backlash.  Sorry, but it's a weak, childish excuse.

Edit: Marionetten is absolutely right.  I'm still willing to give Bioware the benefit of the doubt because of the enjoyment they've provided in the past, but releasing this kind of DLC amidst all the problems DAII's release has been plagued with (and before honoring promises) is a seriously tacky move.

Modifié par Reinveil, 29 avril 2011 - 12:49 .

[Gavinthelocust]

If you don't want it don't buy it.
You're complaining about something that's optional.

[MassEffect762]

Marionetten wrote...

JohnEpler wrote...

So DLC doesn't really preclude the toolset, which doesn't really preclude patching.

That's excellent... so where is the toolset? I mean, as an AAA developer BioWare is expected to actually deliver. Bethesda plans to have their toolset released alongside Skyrim. Day one. Yet here we have you guys making the same excuse time after time and all we end up seeing is horse armor. My point here is that this doesn't help unless you guys plan to back it up with an actual effort. Between all the misguided marketing, questionable design decisions and disappointments it's becoming increasingly difficult to be a BioWare fan.

Don't get me wrong. I don't feel any ill will towards you, BioWare or anyone else who works there. Quite the opposite. You guys have given me a lot of joy over the years and I'm thankful for that. It's just getting to a point where I'm not sure if I want to continue supporting BioWare as a business as I'm seeing some disturbing business practices emerging. And while I can't speak for anyone else this seems to be a fairly common trend around these parts. I find that unfortunate.

The name you guys have built up over the years at BioWare has been irrevocably stained due to what I view as some very self-destructive events. Surely you can't all be utterly oblivious to it? Surely someone voiced some concern over the idea of releasing horse armor of all things in the wake of Dragon Age II's failure? You guys practically poured salt right into an open and infected sore here. Damn. You're all either crazy or too ballsy for your own good. Bad start. Get better.

As a side note, I'm still waiting for the European bazaar. One promise at a time, yes?

They know this, they can't possibly believe the direction they're going is healthy.

The problem being EA their boss can't and/or wont allow the Bioware of old to do their thing, work their magic.

Would you argue with your employer when you have bills to pay, children to feed?

That's my opinion, though I'm fairly certain it applies with the current cheaper/smaller trend.

[Marionetten]

Gavinthelocust wrote...

If you don't want it don't buy it.
You're complaining about something that's optional.

We're complaining about the current direction of the franchise and BioWare's recent business and design decisions.

Bigger picture. If you don't think DLC plays any role in how BioWare designs their products... well, then I don't know what to tell you.

MassEffect762 wrote...

They know this, they can't possibly believe the direction they're going is healthy.

The problem being EA their boss can't and/or wont allow the Bioware of old to do their thing, work their magic.

Would you argue with your employer when you have bills to pay, children to feed?

That's my opinion, though I'm fairly certain it applies with the current cheaper/smaller trend.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that the doctors have fairly high positions within EA.

While it's likely that smaller developers do get bullied by EA I find it hard to believe that a developer as influential as BioWare would be so quick to bow.

Modifié par Marionetten, 29 avril 2011 - 12:59 .

[Gavinthelocust]

Marionetten wrote...

Gavinthelocust wrote...

If you don't want it don't buy it.
You're complaining about something that's optional.

We're complaining about the current direction of the franchise and BioWare's recent business and design decisions.

Bigger picture. If you don't think DLC plays any role in how BioWare designs their products... well, then I don't know what to tell you.

There's a thread for that which probably has used this DLC as an argument for what they think will happen to DA.
No real reason to have one here other than people thinking they're the first person to think of something when really many people have thought the same before.

[MassEffect762]

Marionetten wrote...

Gavinthelocust wrote...

If you don't want it don't buy it.
You're complaining about something that's optional.

We're complaining about the current direction of the franchise and BioWare's recent business and design decisions.

Bigger picture. If you don't think DLC plays any role in how BioWare designs their products... well, then I don't know what to tell you.

MassEffect762 wrote...

They know this, they can't possibly believe the direction they're going is healthy.

The problem being EA their boss can't and/or wont allow the Bioware of old to do their thing, work their magic.

Would you argue with your employer when you have bills to pay, children to feed?

That's my opinion, though I'm fairly certain it applies with the current cheaper/smaller trend.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that the doctors have fairly high positions within EA.

While it's likely that smaller developers do get bullied by EA I find it hard to believe that a developer as influential as BioWare would be so quick to bow.

I honestly couldn't tell you but the trend is evident. Apparently not high enough it seems.(overwritten/outvoted)

Worst case scenario being they allowed/agreed to such development practices.

The obvious sign is EA, bioware however great they may have been it seems cannot produce/work/function to
it's full potential under them.

That's my opinion on the matter.

[Everwarden]

Master Shiori wrote...
Apologies for what exactly? Not making the game you imagined in your mind?

No. Mass Effect 2 isn't the sequel I wanted, for example.. but it's still a really good game. Dragon Age 2 isn't the sequel I wanted, and it's a really bad game. See the difference?

There was plenty of information, gameplay videos, previews and even a demo out there before DA2 was released, so you knew full well what you're getting. If you're not happy with the game then I'm sorry, but that's not Bioware's problem.

You neglect to mention the lies they told: choices that matter, a changing city, an unchanged inventory system, and auto-attack (okay, they patched that one in). Don't forget the re-used environment or the bugs.

They gave you free items before the launch, 7 of which were available to everyone regardless of whether they pre-ordered or not. They released 2 patches so far to address the bugs and other issues within the game and are working on the third as we speak.

Ohboy, free pixel-items! I can hardly contain my joy!

Sorry, but Bioware has been more than fair to their fanbase despite constant flaming and occasional insults directed at them from the so called "fans" on these forums.

Maybe they'll be 'fair' enough to make a game that's actually good, next time? That would help keep the flames down. 

[MassEffect762]

Everwarden wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...
Apologies for what exactly? Not making the game you imagined in your mind?

No. Mass Effect 2 isn't the sequel I wanted, for example.. but it's still a really good game. Dragon Age 2 isn't the sequel I wanted, and it's a really bad game. See the difference?

There was plenty of information, gameplay videos, previews and even a demo out there before DA2 was released, so you knew full well what you're getting. If you're not happy with the game then I'm sorry, but that's not Bioware's problem.

You neglect to mention the lies they told: choices that matter, a changing city, an unchanged inventory system, and auto-attack (okay, they patched that one in). Don't forget the re-used environment or the bugs.

They gave you free items before the launch, 7 of which were available to everyone regardless of whether they pre-ordered or not. They released 2 patches so far to address the bugs and other issues within the game and are working on the third as we speak.

Ohboy, free pixel-items! I can hardly contain my joy!

Sorry, but Bioware has been more than fair to their fanbase despite constant flaming and occasional insults directed at them from the so called "fans" on these forums.

Maybe they'll be 'fair' enough to make a game that's actually good, next time? That would help keep the flames down. 

+1 Exactly.

[Tony_Knightcrawler]

JohnEpler wrote...

So DLC doesn't really preclude the toolset, which doesn't really preclude patching. Though there's some resource sharing, each of the three has its own unique allocation that shouldn't interfere with the others. That's not always the case, but as a general rule it's pretty accurate.

I don't mean to hate on you, but it does seem to preclude one thing: value. If we're expected to pay $3 for every 2 models BioWare makes, that means that a DLC will either reuse old game content (which is one of the WORST aspects of DA2 btw), or a worthwhile DLC will cost $30 and an expansion will cost $300.

Modifié par Tony_Knightcrawler, 29 avril 2011 - 01:31 .

[ZombiePowered]