39 réponses à ce sujet

[Wizbane]

If you were to choose a single custom class to add to the roster of existing DA classes, what would you choose?
And would it be a base class or an advanced class? If nothing comes to mind.... what principles should be taken into consideration when adding classes to the DA  setting?

Even complex suggestions and ideas are welcome, other readers may be interested. Like second tier advanced classes... everything is possible 'til we know what is possible and what not (and if it's not possible... let us know!)
 
For example, does someone know if the branching class system allows for an hypothetical custom advanced class to be chosen by characters that started with different base classes (converging paths)?

For reference the original roster is (if some informations are wrong let me know):
Base classes: Mage, Rogue, Warrior
Advanced classes for Mage: Shapeshifter, Spirit Healer, Blood Mage, Arcane Warrior
Advanced classes for Rogue: Assassin, Bard, Ranger, Duelist
Advanced classes for Warrior: Berserker, Templar, Champion, Reaver

I'll start with some principles I'd like to be followed:
- a class for Thedas only, no Knight of Solamnia
- not a clone of an existing class with just another name
- archetypical roles that may be covered already should be avoided, but can be mentioned if the feeling of the poster is they are really missing from the original roster (Archer? Druid? Monk?)
- available to all player races would be better (human, dwarf, elf)
- something everybody recognizes... not the Smurfscratcher class nobody knows
 
Wizbane

[CID-78]

classes are a unnecissary restricting factor. a classless system with alot of abilities and requirement is better. you can then see a class as a group of branches in the ability tree. and you can build your own combination by simply picking from several branches.

[Wizbane]

DA achieves that by calling a group of abilities a "class", choosing it rules out other sets of "class" abilities. Backstabbing is a peculiar ability of rogues, and I suppose assassins specialize it. But you can't backstab things if you are a mage. Then there is the layer of not class-specific abilities to choose from, that by design don't mimic class ones. So we have two systems like the one you describe, one on top of the other and with different rules.



I'm interested in opinions about additional classes seen as fitting together with the original ones.

[joriandrake]

classes?

hm, maybe:

minstrel (fits into rogue)
inquisitor (what i think about would fit into either warrior or mage)
warlord (into warrior)
witch (into mage or maybe rogue)
amazon (into warrior)
barbarian (into warrior)
knight (into warrior)
thug (into rogue)
crime lord (into rogue)
monk (western-like, thus into mage i guess considering the lack of clerics)
and something elven, like blade dancer or maybe an "elven lord" to lead a tribe (could fit better as background however, elves miss a noble background right now, but one could be the leader of a tribe or similar)

Modifié par joriandrake, 30 octobre 2009 - 07:05 .

[crevus]

An advanced class for archers since the specializations ingame are not really for archers but for clasical rogues...something like the sharpshooter class which has some very rewarding talents like one hit kill for fourth talent...but of course this talent drains all your stamina and stops stamina regeneration for 1 minute...and doesn't work for high level enemies(ogre,high dragon and the like)...I'd really like that since I feel archery is underpowered in the game...

[Beerfish]

I think the equivalent of a DnD druid would work well in this setting.

[joriandrake]

hm, sniper (for rogue) as i think ranger is part of warrior already?

no druids please, or atleast not the typical dnd ones, then more like the RL ones with herbalism, alchemy, sacrifices and blood magic and some divination?

Modifié par joriandrake, 30 octobre 2009 - 07:08 .

[rscottcatlive]

A Necromancer with the ability to lichify him/herself would be fun. Or a Good Necromancer able to become a baelnorn. I think its important to remember that classes should show somewhat in the story line. I hated in Oblivion once you become Sheograth after you leave the city no one recognizes your title...not even the pilgrims at sheograths shrine.

[jrastaban]

For example, does someone know if the branching class system allows for an hypothetical custom advanced class to be chosen by characters that started with different base classes (converging paths)?

2 things on this, Rogues and Warriors share a lot of talents so it seems possible. The other option would be to create 2 specializations that are the exact same and make one for warrior and the other for rogue.

As for classes to be added, a lot of people have been discussing monks, though they would probably need re-envisioned to fit within this world.

I personally would love to play an alchemist. It could be split with a healing tree, a harming tree and a misc. tree.
This class probably wouldn't consume existing potions as they would be using much more potent varieties.

Potion of health (HP Restore) > Pain Suppressor (Damage Resist?) > Potion of Quickening (+Stam/Magic Regen) > Elixir of Life (Resurrection)
Corrosive cocktail (Lowers target Armor, small DoT) > Venomous Vial (DoT) > Maker's Flame (AOE fire think Molotov cocktail +friendly fire) > Elixir of Death (short countdown, Save vs Death (boss immune) on Save take substantial damage)
Smoke Grenade (-hit while in it, +friendly fire) > Crude Oil Cannister (Single target, chance of knockdown) > stimulants (+ melee damage) > Templar's Tonic (dispel all good or bad)

combos
Crude Oil Grenade + Fire = Inferno - ignites nearby characters
Elixir of Death + Elixir of Life = Body explodes ala Walking Bomb
Pain Suppressor + stimulants = Hallucinations (character attacks nearest target friend or foe)
Corrosive cocktail + Fire = Ignite for higher intensity Dot, Consumes the cocktail. 

Modifié par jrastaban, 30 octobre 2009 - 07:23 .

[Wizbane]

One thing to remember is that in DA classes have unique abilities not available to other classes, as far as I know. Perhaps there are overlaps, but that should be the general guideline.
 
I've seen some neat ideas already.

Sharpshooter is a nice name for a specialized archer class (I like it more than Sniper and is less obvious than Archer, as a name). It would fit as a shared advancement class for Warrior and Rogues I think. Or maybe as a specialized path from Ranger.

Alchemist is a good suggestion... a specialized potion maker, capable of making potions the normal potion crafting skills don't allow. For Mages, I'd say, rather than a base class splitting in the specialization fields mentioned.

What about the corresponding specialization for Rogue? Trapmaker? Needs a better name.

Druid... I see it as an advanced class for Mage... something new, since we have Spirit Healer and Shapeshifter already. Monk, I have difficulties in finding the right spot for it... a different kind of Templar perhaps, a specialization for Warriors.

Let's "visualize" these possible additions, I'll keep it simple for now:

Base classes: Mage, Rogue, Warrior
Advanced classes for Mage: Shapeshifter, Spirit Healer, Blood Mage, Arcane Warrior, Druid, Alchemist
Advanced classes for Rogue: Assassin, Bard, Ranger, Duelist, Trapmaker, Sharpshooter
Advanced classes for Warrior: Berserker, Templar, Champion, Reaver, Monk

I'd also like this, with Druid as base class (I see converging options already... hard to keep things simple!)

Base classes: Mage, Rogue, Warrior, Druid
Advanced classes for Druid: Alchemist
Advanced classes for Mage: Shapeshifter, Spirit Healer, Blood Mage, Arcane Warrior
Advanced classes for Rogue: Assassin, Bard, Ranger, Duelist, Trapmaker, Sharpshooter
Advanced classes for Warrior: Berserker, Templar, Champion, Reaver, Monk

Modifié par Wizbane, 30 octobre 2009 - 08:16 .

[jrastaban]

Interesting layout with druid as a base class. I think they could also receive a specialization that would enable them to be similar to the dnd cleric class. I am not sure what name would be, possibly Guardian.

I picture the skills being more offensive in nature than the current arcane warrior. The attacks would possibly be usable with both 2 handers and sword and board.

[Drachengelt]

I would like to see a rogue with some limited magical capability. In Da:O setting, that would propably be someone who the circle missed, hence



apostate (base rogue)

[crevus]

Well I imagined the sharpshooter something in-between warrior and rogue...like more durable than rogue but more agile than warrior so I'll let to you to put the specialisation for a base class...the thing I would focus on this class is making bows(and crossbows) more powerfull...in every movie you see how an archer usually one hit kills most of his enemies(legolas in lord of the rings for example) and in every game an archer requires loads of arrows to kill one opponent...I mean I don't want the archer to be overpowered but at least do more damage than the slashing of a sword...a swords thrust I agree is more powerfull(usually) ...and the sharpshooter class should have talents that increase the shooting speed or drastically increase critical chance(because when you shoot with a bow it is very important where you aim)...something like that...a classs exclusively for archers...

[Noahsdadiscool]

BARD, CLERIC or a type of Shamanistic Healer- NO, not a "WoW" Shaman, but an Earth Based "Archetype" of caster ( No Melee)

As for a "Trapmaking" class, I like "Tinkerer"

Modifié par Noahsdadiscool, 30 octobre 2009 - 11:04 .

[EdwinPF]

Advanced Mage class - Necromancer

Necromancer can summon undead and demons/devils.

If a Necromancer loses his concentration - some or all of the undead and demons he summoned may become uncontrollable, turning on the closet creatures whomever they may be ( including friendlies).

Skills sets (Undead, Demon, Devil) affect the types of creatures they can summon and their strength.

Undead are mindless. Demons and devils differ in that demons are less controllable and devils are more demanding (i.e. demanding payment - in magic or life force after being summoned). The different types of Undead, Demons and Devils have unique weaknesses and strengths.

A necromancer can craft items that enhance their ability to control the creatures that they summoned.

[Wizbane]

I'm hesitant to add Necromancer to our dream roster because I'm afraid it's quite in conflict with DA lore and structure. There are necromantic effects, but they are buried in spell lines.

For reference:
Type of Spells: Primal, Creation, Spirit, Entropy

Animate Dead is a Spirit spell for example, Drain Life is an Entropy Spell.

For the same reason I'm hesitant to add Cleric. There is one kind of magic, no deity granted effects and Spirit manipulation is already there.

As a general rule, I think that magic handling belongs to the Mage class and its specializations only. I like the idea of an Arcane Rogue, but it should belong to the Mage line, like Arcane Warrior.

As for classes that specialize certain things that can be done with skills, by adding new abilities, I think they are a good field to develop. After a bit of research, I'd change the name "Alchemist" to "Herbalist". It should be a specialization not dealing with magic, if we leave it as a possible path for Druid.

I also like the suggestion of Shaman. As and advanced class for Druid that deals with the Spirit world, but not through magic.

Here's the possible updated roster, 7 additions already but with loss of "symmetry".


Base classes: Mage, Rogue, Warrior, Druid
Advanced classes for Druid: Herbalist, Shaman
Advanced classes for Mage: Shapeshifter, Spirit Healer, Blood Mage, Arcane Warrior, Arcane Rogue
Advanced classes for Rogue: Assassin, Bard, Ranger, Duelist, Tinkerer, Sharpshooter
Advanced classes for Warrior: Berserker, Templar, Champion, Reaver, Monk

What do you think about moving Monk to the Druid class (slightly different flavor... like a Druid Warrior... Monk doesn't use weapons, so perhaps doesn't belong to Warrior paths) and deleting Tinkerer/Trapmaker, imagining the crafting of traps with magical effects as a distinctive ability of the Arcane Rogue? We would gain a better symmetry:

Base classes: Warrior, Mage, Rogue, Druid
Advanced classes for Druid: Herbalist, Shaman, Monk
Advanced classes for Mage: Shapeshifter, Spirit Healer, Blood Mage, Arcane Warrior, Arcane Rogue
Advanced classes for Rogue: Assassin, Bard, Ranger, Duelist, Sharpshooter
Advanced classes for Warrior: Berserker, Templar, Champion, Reaver

Mage: Harness the dangerous forces of magic
Warrior: Relies on arms, armor and skill to defeat enemies
Rogue: Masters of shadow, stealth and deadly attacks
Druid: Develops a greater understanding of the forces of nature
Herbalist: Specializes potion and poison making, to greater unique effects
Shaman: Can draw power from the spirit world without recurring to magic
Monk: Learns how to fight without using unnatural implements like weapons and armors
Arcane Rogue: Uses magic to achieve stealthy attacks and craft deadly magical traps
Sharpshooter: Specializes in ranged deadly attacks

Modifié par Wizbane, 31 octobre 2009 - 08:41 .

[LevitasVeneficus]

Wizbane - Fizban hmm Dragonlance anyone?



-Ooo me! me!

[Wizbane]

*incinerates LevitasVeneficus with a wave of his hand*



*spell fizzles*

[Drachengelt]

There is quite the difference between Magical Rogue, and Rogue with Magic.

Magical Rogue isn't a bad class though. By the level you get specialization, you are already quite skilled mage. You can access the third tier spells. If you think logically, what would such powerful caster have use for in rogue skills, it's not lock picking, but cheap shots. Most sensible way to incorporate that would be like the DnD Arcane Trickster, and give some way to use spells to get backstabs and flanking, and increase crit change.

Rogue with magic, would see magic as just another edge to use in battle. I imagine a quick blinding flash, thrown dagger that aims to the target or ability to knock the guard on its back telekinetically would seem like useful tools. More examples could be silencing the cries of victims or movement in stealth, making guards sleepy and making yourself look blurry.

On game mechanics for such class, I would think that prerequisite would be a rogue with high Magic points. The skills would probably not be spells, but more like spell like abilities. Since rogues have no mana, the abilities would have to be balanced with stamina and cooldown. The abilities would probably be on par with first tier spells, and cunning would be used to calculate the saves.

Modifié par Drachengelt, 31 octobre 2009 - 10:49 .

[Korruptted]

What about something like an Archmage for a mage spec. One thing that seemed to be lacking when I look at the mage spec's is they all seem to just be completely separate forms from a basic mage, unlike a berzerker or champion for warrior, or assassin for the rogue. An archmage would essentially be a stronger primal mage, a nuker class mostly. Probably the squishiest of the mages, it would add something pretty basic, like spellpower/magic/willpower, y'know, the basic stats for a mage. The class would have improved primal spells mostly.

[Drachengelt]

On grounds of  symmetry, I would suggest the following things

Move Sharpshooter to warrior base. The warrior class is lacking in archery, and could use the buff. It could also give stealth making it warrior/rogue hybrid.

Rogue with Tinkerer and Apostate (or with another name, a rogue with magical abilities)

Mage with Archmage.

[LevitasVeneficus]

Wizbane wrote...

*incinerates LevitasVeneficus with a wave of his hand*

*spell fizzles*

HA! It would appear that you've lost your hat once again. Take that God o' Light!

[MightySword]

I have always fascinated with Spell Sword class. Sword users who only wear tunic and can cast a few spell.

[guru7892]

I would specificaly like to make a spell casting rogue (I'm gonna call it a theif) that has spells focused on concealment and anti-mobility.



I would also like to expand the assassin to have some more thug-like ablities and be able to stand and fight if it chooses.



I would also like the bard expanded to have some special abilites, but I'm not sure what, maybe detection or something.



The overall idea is to have a rogue-rogue, combat rogue, and mage-rogue; all having the core ability to be stealthy, back stab, and use guerilla tactics but some shifting to be like the other classes. that way I can play a very stealth focused game (an all rogue party), but still be able to use some of the advantages of other classes.



idealy the system would have rogue, warrior, mage, and then inbetweens of each one, a rogue-warrior, a warrior-mage, and a rogue-mage. then of corse each class would be balanced in a rock-paper-scissors set up (warrior beats rogue, rogue beats mage, mage beats warrior). a completly ordered and structured system that makes perfect logical sense. ofcourse having 4 members in a party forces the palyer to make tactical decidions about what they want to be best prepared against.



but alas, there is no order and structure to RPGs these days, they just throw in as many classes as they can develop and try to make everyone happy, leading to a (hopefully) balanced yet esoteric class-situation relationship that nobody understands and thus become unbalnced in practce since nobody will play the game as extensivly as the people who test it and figure out what works against what. but then again you are going to an FAQ to find an overepowered 'build' so it doesn't matter what class you use. (unless you are playing demon souls you are underpowered no matter what you do and you have to sink half your life into the game to try to 'not lose' after 2 minutes in each level).



sorry I like my structures and systems; my attack, block, and grabs; my flow charts; my logic gates; my consistant data. there is nothing wrong with complex systems as long as they are logical. 'What is all this for' you ask? (you pretentious bastard, too which I painfully identify with). to create preceived fairness in gameplay. so the player doesn't feel cheated. With out this it is harder to create a 'state of flow' as jenova chen would call it. If the game isn't challenging and rewarding there is no reason to play (except for story, which is really a reward if its good, or soft-core porno, which is a reward even if its bad).



balance inherently creates challenge for the player, becuase it creates a player vs computer expereince rather than a player vs game-system expereince. honestly what's the reason to fight a game system? the game system makes the rules and by its nature you can't win. also why play a game you don't like?



(sorry for going all gamasutra in this post but you struck a nerve).

[minamber]

guru7892 wrote...

*snip*

If you want to create classes, you should make sure to respect DA's lore when doing so.
class balance and structure may be important (though not much in a single-player only game) but classes should still make sense within the setting.
There is a reason why the mage class is the only one able to do magic (it's inborn, and any children with the ability to do magic is forced to become a mage), therefore a specialization for rogue that adds magic abilities won't work.
Furthermore, specializations aren't really advanced classes at all, considering they only give a stat bonus and access to 4 additional talents. No matter what your specializations are, your main role will still be defined by your base class.

Frankly I think adding an archer spec is a good idea, though we should wait until the game comes out and see how archers fare before deciding whether they need more talents.
I'm not so sure about the druid class, again for lore reasons, since it seems to me such people would be declared apostates by the Chantry and killed, much like the druids in Europe were hunted by the Catholic Church.