388 réponses à ce sujet

[termokanden]

To be fair I probably started out in this thread with a remark that was a bit stronger than intended. Didn't really expect it to turn into a huge thing I guess. I think the OP actually did a good explaining what I think about that particular issue.

[Homebound]

ashley is like that really racist uncle who tells you hes not racist by saying he has a black friend.

[GuardianAngel470]

Saphra Deden wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...


Specifically, it is something designed to so confuse an opponent that they are incapable of retaliating.

What was so confusing about what I said? All you did was reword Ashley's analogy to make it harder for a determined critic to pick it apart. You'd have been just as well off arguing that the Council and humanity would never be forced to terminate an alliance over a bear attack. Seriously, how would a bear threaten galactic politics?

Yeah, I did. Except instead of calling it "harder for a determined critic to pick apart" let's call it "easier to understand and harder to misconstrue". See how both of those descriptions are accurate?

The point was it DID make the same point, it just did it in a less controversial way. That was the point of my second analogy, to say the same thing but differently so that no group is being compared to a dog and the analogy simply makes more sense.

[Dean_the_Young]

Saphra, reign yourself in. No True Scotsman fallacies don't suit you.

[GuardianAngel470]

Saphra Deden wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Yeah, I did. Except instead of calling it "harder for a determined critic to pick apart" let's call it "easier to understand and harder to misconstrue". See how both of those descriptions are accurate?

Sure, but her analogy was still valid anyway. Only an idiot would misunderstand it in the first place and think it was controversial. You aren't one of those people, right?

You're such a nice person. Yeah, her analogy was valid but as should be evident to you by now, it failed. As I previously stated, the purpose of an analogy is to make a complex or lengthy concept clearer. Whether you got it or not means nothing because others didn't. Because they didn't, because the analogy only served to confuse people and make them claim that she was racist, it failed. In fact, it had the opposite result that was intended.

Yes, I did understand it when I first heard it, or at least I understood her intent and the meaning behind the analogy. But others didn't. Claiming anyone who didn't understand it is an idiot is just rude and incorrect.

Personal experience, personal perspective, and personal opinions can change someone's understanding of the same line of dialog drastically and none of those things has anything to do with intelligence.

[termokanden]

No the analogy is not hard to understand at all. Still you shouldn't be so quick to call people idiots.

Oh and I can't help but comment on the part about evolution. There's a difference between rejecting something and not understanding it. Even though I am a man of science myself, I try to keep myself from making sweeping statements about people who have different beliefs, even if those beliefs seem quite strange to me. I've said too much about religion in the past that I regret.

I also looked at my first posts in this thread about Ash. They weren't just slightly stronger than they should have been. I am willing to back down from that stance as it was formulated in a stupid way, and my later posts have been more accurate. I don't think Ash is a racist, but it's something along the lines of what's in the OP. Except I don't agree that it's easy to misunderstand the analogy.

Modifié par termokanden, 30 avril 2011 - 09:41 .

[trobbins777]

People hate Ashley J. Williams because even with a girls name he's more manly than you could ever hope to be.

P.S.
THIS IS MY BOOMSTICK!

[Made Nightwing]

trobbins777 wrote...

People hate Ashley J. Williams because even with a girls name he's more manly than you could ever hope to be.

P.S.
THIS IS MY BOOMSTICK!

^This. I support Ashley having a chainsaw melee attack in ME3.

[termokanden]

And if you preorder she gets a golden Lancer

[GuardianAngel470]

Saphra Deden wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

You're such a nice person. Yeah, her analogy was valid but as should be evident to you by now, it failed. As I previously stated, the purpose of an analogy is to make a complex or lengthy concept clearer.

Which is exactly what it did. Comparing humanity's relationship with the Council to a dog's relationship with its owner was quite well put. It got it, a lot of other people got it. You obviously understood it too, then.

A lot of people manage to misunderstand simple concepts, that doesn't mean those concepts are invalid. I understand evolution, but a lot of other people don't no matter how much you explain it to them. Does that make evolution flawed, or every description of it? Some people are just dumb.

There is a difference between a scientific theory and an analogy. For instance, I have no idea how quantum mechanics works, neither did the Nobel prize winner Richard Feynman (prize for theoretical physics), but like you said that doesn't mean it is any less true.

However, an analogy is supposed to make things easier to understand for most people. You're partially right, some people just don't understand complex concepts and analogies only serve to confuse them further. However, Ashley "hate" is quite popular, meaning a lot of people didn't understand the analogy. Whether you or I could understand it or not, it did not fulfill its purpose.

That's all I'm saying.

[GuardianAngel470]

termokanden wrote...

And if you preorder she gets a golden Lancer

I'm not sure you got the reference...

[WizenSlinky0]

Ashley isn't really racist in a sense. Just like the new british soldier is supposed to convey the idea of "a player joining ME3 without playing the first two games", I think ashley is supposed to convey the idea of "human opinions after JUST coming into contact with aliens".

Remember, humanity's first contact with aliens was not a very good one and resulted in casualties on both sides. First impressions are kind of a big deal to humans.

It comes off to me as just another human who doesn't know a lot about space and aliens, and is still trying to deal with how to handle it. Ignorance, yes. Racism, I wouldn't say so.

But yes, she does a terrible job of proving otherwise.

[termokanden]

Saphra Deden wrote...

It isn't that they don't understand the analogy, it is that they don't want to consider her ideas. Ashley's beliefs are impolite and unpopular. That is why she is hated.

We're supposed to be humble as a race, to bend over backwards and accept the wisdom of foreign people. That's 50 years of western guilt for you.

I don't really get why you have to hate someone just because you don't agree 100% with them.

As for the "western guilt". No you're allowed to question this wisdom, but just as we're asked to give Ashley the benefit of the doubt, we might want to do the same thing with the aliens of Mass Effect.

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

termokanden wrote...

And if you preorder she gets a golden Lancer

I'm not sure you got the reference...

I was trying to make one of my own. You actually start out with a "Lancer" in ME1. Add a chainsaw and we're playing Gears of War

[lolwut666]

Ashley is the only party member with some common sense.

You don't just let some aliens who you've know for all of 5 minutes have full access to your ship's systems. That's like you letting someone you've just met borrow your car.

[Quole]

Because shes an ugly, racist, cross-eyed, religous zealot  **** that questions everything you do and gets mad at you for coming back from the dead?

just a thought

Modifié par Quole, 02 mai 2011 - 05:42 .

[Made Nightwing]

Troll Quole is back.

[Quole]

watchu talk about

wait.. do I know you?

Modifié par Quole, 02 mai 2011 - 05:45 .

[1Minsc1]

Quole wrote...

Because shes an ugly, racist, cross-eyed, religous zealot  **** that questions everything you do and gets mad at you for coming back from the dead?

just a thought

repeating false arguments doesn´t make them true
ugly, cross-eyed: so people hate everyone who´s ugly/cross-eyed? poor,
racist: take a look at earlier post here, she´s not a racist,
religous zealot: there is no evidence to that. she said she is religous, thats all. is there a line she demands a crusade?

her behaviour on horizon is disappointing but also understandable, take a look at the "If the VS is in ME3 Squad..." thread

Modifié par 1Minsc1, 02 mai 2011 - 06:07 .

[Xeranx]

I don't know if people know this or if they even care, but Chris L'etoile who wrote Ashley said that the line - "I can't tell the aliens from the animals" - is in reference to the keepers. I've tried it recently and it only happens around keepers and no one else. If there's a keeper nearby you'll run a chance of hearing it. That's not to say it's a good line. Ashley has many bouts of foot-in-mouth disease, but that's because of her background.

In any case I very much like her character and I'm entirely disappointed by the redesign they did. I was very much looking forward to rekindling the romance in ME3, but at this point I won't bother unless they change it.

[Made Nightwing]

Quole wrote...

watchu talk about

wait.. do I know you?

No, but I know you Quole. I madea deal for your soul years ago.