1Minsc1 wrote...
Ash is bigot !?
No of course, what the %&$$
Seriously: in what way? Religious? I think, simply no, I see no evidence to that.
Towards the Alliance? Yes, and this is the major reason behind the Horizon-debacle. I really hate it. Ash can´t even imagine Shep is doing the right thing along with Cerberus. It was very disappointing, especially when she is Shep´s LI. Giving more faith in an institution than in the man she said she loved, uh.
Golden Owl wrote...
Religous bigotry...no...not that I can see.1Minsc1 wrote...
Ash is bigot !?
No of course, what the %&$$
Seriously: in what way? Religious? I think, simply no, I see no evidence to that.
Towards the Alliance? Yes, and this is the major reason behind the Horizon-debacle. I really hate it. Ash can´t even imagine Shep is doing the right thing along with Cerberus. It was very disappointing, especially when she is Shep´s LI. Giving more faith in an institution than in the man she said she loved, uh.
Towards the Alliance? I'm sorry, I'm not too sure what your actually referring to there.
Ash does display some bigotry on Horizon, something along the lines of, "I'm no fan of aliens, but Cerberus takes it too far"...I know I have the actual wording about Cerberus wrong, but that was the general idea....Also referring to Liara as "making nice with the bug eyed monsters", in fact Ash is quite often quite rude and cruel towards Liara, wanting Shep to ask Liara about her sex life, etc... Most of that could have been taken as some crazy jealousy towards Liara...but the comment on Horizon suggests, I think strongly, that it's not just about Liara, its about aliens in general....Ash is not an extremist like Cerberus, is not out to dominate aliens by any means possible...but I do find her bear/dog reference to how she perceives the alien races reacting to humans, a somewhat one eyed, unexamined view, she is making assumptions, possibly backed by her own views about how humanity should treat alien races?Thats the feeling I get from that anyway. I found over all, her comments quite disconcerting and dubious in regards to other species. Your thoughts Minsc?
Guest_mrsph_*
Golden Owl wrote...
Towards the Alliance? I'm sorry, I'm not too sure what your actually referring to there.
Golden Owl wrote...
Ash does display some bigotry on Horizon, something along the lines of, "I'm no fan of aliens, but Cerberus takes it too far"...I know I have the actual wording about Cerberus wrong, but that was the general idea....Also referring to Liara as "making nice with the bug eyed monsters", in fact Ash is quite often quite rude and cruel towards Liara, wanting Shep to ask Liara about her sex life, etc... Most of that could have been taken as some crazy jealousy towards Liara...but the comment on Horizon suggests, I think strongly, that it's not just about Liara, its about aliens in general....Ash is not an extremist like Cerberus, is not out to dominate aliens by any means possible...but I do find her bear/dog reference to how she perceives the alien races reacting to humans, a somewhat one eyed, unexamined view, she is making assumptions, possibly backed by her own views about how humanity should treat alien races?Thats the feeling I get from that anyway. I found over all, her comments quite disconcerting and dubious in regards to other species. Your thoughts Minsc?
Modifié par Alamar2078, 04 mai 2011 - 11:32 .
Alamar2078 wrote...
To make it clear what I'm saying when I claim that Ash isn't a racist or bigot [but may be biased or prejudiced] here are the definitions that I use:
Racist: a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various [human] races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
Bigot: a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.
Prejudice: an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason.
Bias: a particular tendency or inclination, especially one that prevents unprejudiced consideration of a question
Bias, prejudice --- mean a strong inclination of the mind or a preconceived opinion about something or someone. A bias may be favorable or unfavorable: bias in favor of or against an idea. Prejudice implies a preformed judgment even more unreasoning than bias, and usually implies an unfavorable opinion:
******************************************
While the above traditional definitions may not match how we [Americans] use the words today it may help the debate if we used the same meanings for words. I suspect Minsc may use the above definitions as I do but I suspect others may not use the same definitions.
Alamar2078 wrote...
I know that you directed your post at Minsc but I would like to add my POV ... I hope you don't mind.Golden Owl wrote...
Towards the Alliance? I'm sorry, I'm not too sure what your actually referring to there.
If I may interject I believe that Minsc meant to say that Ash is a "Cereberus bigot" in that she hates Cereberus so much that she can't possibly imagine that they are trying to do something "good". Even further than this it takes a lot of effort to get her to believe that Cereberus is not the big evil behind all of this.
Thank you Alamar, that makes sense nowGolden Owl wrote...
Ash does display some bigotry on Horizon, something along the lines of, "I'm no fan of aliens, but Cerberus takes it too far"...I know I have the actual wording about Cerberus wrong, but that was the general idea....Also referring to Liara as "making nice with the bug eyed monsters", in fact Ash is quite often quite rude and cruel towards Liara, wanting Shep to ask Liara about her sex life, etc... Most of that could have been taken as some crazy jealousy towards Liara...but the comment on Horizon suggests, I think strongly, that it's not just about Liara, its about aliens in general....Ash is not an extremist like Cerberus, is not out to dominate aliens by any means possible...but I do find her bear/dog reference to how she perceives the alien races reacting to humans, a somewhat one eyed, unexamined view, she is making assumptions, possibly backed by her own views about how humanity should treat alien races?Thats the feeling I get from that anyway. I found over all, her comments quite disconcerting and dubious in regards to other species. Your thoughts Minsc?
I see your point(s) but I don't think that bigot is the right word [IMHO]. A bigot is usually far more extreme in their views. The above examples seem to point more towards "bias" than outright "bigotry".
Yes, after reading your next post, thank you again for the clarifications...I retract the word, though not the statment, if that makes sense?
BTW: I don't like her implied view of dogs either ... thanks for defending me on that.
No problem...I have issue with the anthropocentric views human kind as a whole tends to have towards our non-human friends.
1Minsc1 wrote...
Golden Owl wrote...
Religous bigotry...no...not that I can see.1Minsc1 wrote...
Ash is bigot !?
No of course, what the %&$$
Seriously: in what way? Religious? I think, simply no, I see no evidence to that.
Towards the Alliance? Yes, and this is the major reason behind the Horizon-debacle. I really hate it. Ash can´t even imagine Shep is doing the right thing along with Cerberus. It was very disappointing, especially when she is Shep´s LI. Giving more faith in an institution than in the man she said she loved, uh.
Towards the Alliance? I'm sorry, I'm not too sure what your actually referring to there.
Ash does display some bigotry on Horizon, something along the lines of, "I'm no fan of aliens, but Cerberus takes it too far"...I know I have the actual wording about Cerberus wrong, but that was the general idea....Also referring to Liara as "making nice with the bug eyed monsters", in fact Ash is quite often quite rude and cruel towards Liara, wanting Shep to ask Liara about her sex life, etc... Most of that could have been taken as some crazy jealousy towards Liara...but the comment on Horizon suggests, I think strongly, that it's not just about Liara, its about aliens in general....Ash is not an extremist like Cerberus, is not out to dominate aliens by any means possible...but I do find her bear/dog reference to how she perceives the alien races reacting to humans, a somewhat one eyed, unexamined view, she is making assumptions, possibly backed by her own views about how humanity should treat alien races?Thats the feeling I get from that anyway. I found over all, her comments quite disconcerting and dubious in regards to other species. Your thoughts Minsc?1Minsc1 wrote...I looked up "bigot" in dictionary and thought it meant "blindly, fanatical following something". But you meant Ahs´s attitude when it comes to aliens, got it. I was a bit confused, because i don´t remember Ash talking about Aliens on Horizon. So i took a look at some vids on youtube. What she says seems to depend on what your Shep choose as dialog.
Yes, my sincere apologies Minsc...I have mis-used the term 'Bigot'...I am now in the process of seeking a more appropriate word...working on it. I'm not sure if one exists, best I can do right now is to say, she is more than prejudice, less than bigoted.1Minsc1 wrote...1. Shep choose: Cerberus is not the enemy, Cerberus is the only one who cares about the human colonies getting attacked.
Ash: "I know what Cerberus is like. They talk about putting humans first, but at what cost."
2. Shep choose: come with me, it will be just like old times.
Ash: "No, i am not a fan of aliens, but Cerberus has a history of being extremist. I´ll never work for a group like that."
Yes, this is the conversation my Shep had with Ash1Minsc1 wrote...1. "Putting humans first" means: we have to take care for our spezies? Got no big problems with this, mostly every politician said that: "We stand to claim the interests of our country".
I kind of have a problem with that Minsc, to me such attitude helps perpetuate the dividing lines between the various species, if we are all too busy looking out for our own first, I can't see how we could truly come together and work as a complete whole for galatic stability...the 'Johnny got a bigger slice of cake than me' issue.... But then again I don't believe in patriotism either, for the simple fact of where it leads...the 'Us or Them' mentality...I'm more of a 'World patriot' I guess...we are all in it together, earth isn't a big place, why in the heck are we always fighting...cut anyone and they bleed...And I guess I have had no trouble in this game, taking my same philosophy to galactic levels.1Minsc1 wrote...If it means more than that: humans should dominate, that would be a problem to me.
That one, I don't know if we will ever get the answer to in regards to Ash...it remains speculation.1Minsc1 wrote...2. "no fan" is no problem to me. Beeing no fan of somewhat implies no negative attitude to that somewhat, or?
Pretty clear is the fact, that Ash refuses extremist methods.
The 'no fan of' could be a simple cultural mis-understanding between us...you a German, me an Australia, this game American....When I state 'I am no fan of'...I am implying in a polite fashion, that I REALLY don't like something.1Minsc1 wrote...So far my thoughts about Horizon. I´ll go to bed now, but i´m not trying to avoid the "Ash in ME1" discussion. Would be a pretty hard job...
Sleep well Minsc...
Modifié par Golden Owl, 05 mai 2011 - 12:46 .
skcih-deraj wrote...
Lets not focus on lables.
The animals and aliens comment from what I got from it was a joke and I took it as such. Even then it doesn't scream she's racist. Its kinda like how she takes out wrex if you can't convince him to calm down. But the second she kills him for having a weapon drawn on her commanding officer she's racist.
The two most common arguments against her are so weak they aren't even worth talking about. But people do.
mrsph wrote...
You can be a racist and still dislike extremist groups that go to far you know.
My opinion is that Ash is racist. But it isn't that big of a deal. It's a character flaw, and character flaws make characters, well, characters.
1Minsc1 wrote...
mrsph wrote...
You can be a racist and still dislike extremist groups that go to far you know.
My opinion is that Ash is racist. But it isn't that big of a deal. It's a character flaw, and character flaws make characters, well, characters.
Now this is really interesting. I´am german and in germany being racist implies to be highly morally reprehensible, it´s much more than a character flaw. Thought we (germans) learnt our lesson, i hope so.
Alamar2078 wrote...
To make it clear what I'm saying when I claim that Ash isn't a racist or bigot [but may be biased or prejudiced] here are the definitions that I use:
Racist: a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various [human] races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
Bigot: a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.
Prejudice: an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason.
Bias: a particular tendency or inclination, especially one that prevents unprejudiced consideration of a question
Bias, prejudice --- mean a strong inclination of the mind or a preconceived opinion about something or someone. A bias may be favorable or unfavorable: bias in favor of or against an idea. Prejudice implies a preformed judgment even more unreasoning than bias, and usually implies an unfavorable opinion:
******************************************
While the above traditional definitions may not match how we [Americans] use the words today it may help the debate if we used the same meanings for words. I suspect Minsc may use the above definitions as I do but I suspect others may not use the same definitions.
Modifié par 1Minsc1, 05 mai 2011 - 05:56 .
GuardianAngel470 wrote...
1Minsc1 wrote...
mrsph wrote...
You can be a racist and still dislike extremist groups that go to far you know.
My opinion is that Ash is racist. But it isn't that big of a deal. It's a character flaw, and character flaws make characters, well, characters.
Now this is really interesting. I´am german and in germany being racist implies to be highly morally reprehensible, it´s much more than a character flaw. Thought we (germans) learnt our lesson, i hope so.
What I think mrsph is trying to say is that a fictional character in a story is often made more interesting by having a major character flaw like racism or sexism. I believe he's looking at it in a more detached way than you.
Also, I just want to say two things. These last couple of pages have accomplished what I wanted to accomplish so thank you to Minsc, The Golden Owl, and the others that have reached an understanding.
Now to Minsc personally, I've noticed that you use contractions properly, even when it's dubious, but have also seen that you type "I'am" often. The proper way to type it is "I'm", no "A".
Just a bit of help from a english speaker.
Alamar2078 wrote...
While my definition of racist usually applies to "human races" I see no problems generalizing the term to "non-human races / species".
As far as what Ash was in ME1 it's hard to find a good word. For me "biased" or perhaps "prejudiced" would be appropriate. Obviously others may interpret Ash's comments differently.
Honestly I'm not sure if there is a perfect word for what Ash seems to be.
jamesp81 wrote...
Alamar2078 wrote...
While my definition of racist usually applies to "human races" I see no problems generalizing the term to "non-human races / species".
As far as what Ash was in ME1 it's hard to find a good word. For me "biased" or perhaps "prejudiced" would be appropriate. Obviously others may interpret Ash's comments differently.
Honestly I'm not sure if there is a perfect word for what Ash seems to be.
I think a good term is 'human nationalist'. Which I'm good with, I consider myself to be the same.
My take on a 'human nationalist' is someone who wishes to advance humanity. This does not automatically mean a human nationalist wishes to subjugate aliens, or views them as inferior.
Modifié par Alamar2078, 05 mai 2011 - 05:15 .
Modifié par 1Minsc1, 05 mai 2011 - 08:03 .
....
...seems to make the most logical sense.
Modifié par Golden Owl, 06 mai 2011 - 01:22 .
1Minsc1 wrote...
Some might ask "what the **** is this guy about to write?" But I think a major problem in our discussion is to find proper words to characterize Ash when it comes to that "racist-thing". So i looked up a few words:
"In biology, races are distinct genetically divergent populations within the same species with relatively small morphological and genetic differences. The populations can be described as ecological races if they arise from adaptation to different local habitats or geographic races when they are geographically isolated. If sufficiently different, two or more races can be identified as subspecies, which is an official biological taxonomy unit subordinate to species. If not, they are denoted as races, which means that a formal rank should not be given to the group, or taxonomists are unsure whether or not a formal rank should be given. According to Ernst W. Mayr, "a subspecies is a geographic race that is sufficiently different taxonomically to be worthy of a separate name."
"In biology, a species is one of the basic units of biological classification and a taxonomic rank. A species is often defined as a group of organisms capable of interbreeding and producing fertile offspring. While in many cases this definition is adequate, more precise or differing measures are often used, such as similarity of DNA, morphology or ecological niche."
both from Wikipedia.
Taking a look at this qoutes it's obvious that humans, krogans, salarians... are different species, not different races.
"Racism is the belief that there are inherent differences in people's traits and capacities which are entirely due to their race, however defined, and which consequently justify those people being treated differently, both socially and legally. Alternatively, racism is the practice of certain group/s of people being treated differently, which is then justified by recourse to racial sterotyping or pseudo-science."
Wikipedia
Racist: a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various [human] races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
Alamar
Replace "Racism" by "Specieism", "race" by "species" and so on and we get a proper definition of a "Specieist" in our ME-universe. I think a lot intelligent beeings, who have contact to other species, are Specieist. There are differences in "peoples" traits and capacities, by canon!, not by stereotyping or pseudo-science. And the species are treatend different, Krogans are used for war, and "Council-races" rule. The Volus ambassador had no doubt that the Council should rule, he just want a seat for the volus too.
To come to the point: in our world it's highly morally reprehensible to be a racist, in ME-universe it is not when you are a "specieist". That does not implie that Ash is a "specieist", she never said humans are superior to others and should rule the galaxy. Nor want i legitimate the oppression of any species in the ME-universe. I just want to state that "our" words would have different connotations in ME and would be quite inappropiate.
to be contiuned...
jamesp81 wrote...
Alamar2078 wrote...
While my definition of racist usually applies to "human races" I see no problems generalizing the term to "non-human races / species".
As far as what Ash was in ME1 it's hard to find a good word. For me "biased" or perhaps "prejudiced" would be appropriate. Obviously others may interpret Ash's comments differently.
Honestly I'm not sure if there is a perfect word for what Ash seems to be.
I think a good term is 'human nationalist'. Which I'm good with, I consider myself to be the same.
My take on a 'human nationalist' is someone who wishes to advance humanity. This does not automatically mean a human nationalist wishes to subjugate aliens, or views them as inferior.
Modifié par Golden Owl, 06 mai 2011 - 01:41 .
Golden Owl wrote...
Bumping Post....Yes, am going somewhere with it, in regards to both Ash and Tali....just waiting for thoughts first though....
"I kind of have a problem with that Minsc, to me such attitude helps perpetuate the dividing lines between the various species, if we are all too busy looking out for our own first, I can't see how we could truly come together and work as a complete whole for galatic stability...the 'Johnny got a bigger slice of cake than me' issue.... But then again I don't believe in patriotism either, for the simple fact of where it leads...the 'Us or Them' mentality...I'm more of a 'World patriot' I guess...we are all in it together, earth isn't a big place, why in the heck are we always fighting...cut anyone and they bleed...And I guess I have had no trouble in this game, taking my same philosophy to galactic levels."
Modifié par 1Minsc1, 06 mai 2011 - 08:34 .
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