388 réponses à ce sujet

[Inspectre]

An exellent post, she's my second favorite character tho:(

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

She specifically names two of the most popular characters when she talks about restricting access. Funny part is, of all the people she should be worried about, Tali is at the very top yet she never mentions her. A second class citizen learning the ins and outs of the normandy's prototype drive core and stealth systems? By her logic a recipe for disaster.

I believe this was because Tali was added at the last second.  Rear Admiral Mikhailovich fails to mention her as well, even though she was sitting in the engine room, and obviously the only tech savvy one amongst them. (Krogan spy, sir?)

[Shadowrun1177]

I personally never hated Ash. I was put off at first by her comments about aliens in ME 1 until I talked to her more. I also never had a problem with her religious side and poetry I felt it added depth to her character. I did feel let down in ME 2 with the Horizon scene but I think a lot people felt that could been written better but still looking forward to ME 3 and rekindling that old flame. Honestly if I had to rate my top 3 love interest it would go Tali, Ash, Liara.

[Manic Sheep]

Barquiel wrote...

Collider wrote...

The analogy is not very good.

this

And "I can't tell the aliens from the animals" didn't help either. I like Ashley, but that line is unneccesary...imo.

But that’s not necessarily derogatory. How would you know what has higher intelligence and what does not when you have aliens as out there as the Hanar? Unless you were familiar with the different species you wouldn't know what to expect. I never got why people yell racism at that. I also thought the bear/dog analogy was decent. Not quite sure how else you would explain it. But people seem to misinterpt it allot anyway.

Modifié par Manic Sheep, 28 avril 2011 - 10:52 .

[Aramintai]

Barquiel wrote...

And "I can't tell the aliens from the animals" didn't help either. I like Ashley, but that line is unneccesary...imo.

I never associated that phrase with racism. Seeing that Ashley didn't have much experience with aliens prior to ME1 because her assignments were only on human colonies, I always thought the phrase comes from Ashley's simple lack of knowledge about some alien species. There are various races living in the Citadel space and beyond, some with a rather peculiar outlook, like hanar for example, so at first sight they may be mistaken for pets or something. If anything else, I just thought that perhaps Ashley's education was a bit narrow, but not really surprising as I know many schools usually teach very generally about other countries and mostly about their own. 

And dog & bear warning rings true, just look at how the Council used "uplifted" krogans in Rachni Wars.

But haters gonna hate anyway. 

Modifié par Aramintai, 28 avril 2011 - 10:51 .

[GuardianAngel470]

GodWood wrote...

Collider wrote...
The analogy is not very good.

Why?

Because people didn't understand it. The purpose of an analogy is to make a complex or lengthy concept easily understandable, often anecdotally.

While her dog/bear analogy does technically make sense, it doesn't do very well at conveying her point in an easily understood way. In fact, her follow up sentence makes more sense than the analogy.

She compared a sentient being to a dog that isn't sentient. While her point is there in the analogy, it simply didn't convey the point properly because, when you try and replace the dog with something sentient, you immediately make the analogy racist.

[termokanden]

1. Religion. Don't mind her talking about it. I do mind her "hello, have you looked out the window" speech. It was a little annoying.

2. Poetry. Didn't mind. Didn't really care either

3. Racism. Oh no, she isn't a racist, she just doesn't like other races. Wait. I don't think you can get around this one. She IS a racist. I felt like she should have learned in ME1 that other races are fine as well. After all, she's out there saving the universe with them. But then on Horizon, she says very directly that she doesn't like aliens much. Racist.

But what I really don't like about Ashley is the conversation on Horizon (as mentioned by others already). She sort of has the right idea, but she goes much too far. Neither her nor Kaidan will give Shepard the benefit of the doubt, and that's something I find extremely strange.

She compared a sentient being to a dog that isn't sentient.

Off-topic but still. I had this discussion in a high school philosophy class years ago. EVERYONE agreed that no animal has any degree of sentience. My teacher was the worst. He didn't have the ability to form normal arguments, so he had to throw analogies at us, and they really did nothing to prove his point.

I still believe you can talk about different degrees of sentience instead of just saying there are animals and humans, one is a mechanism and the other a highly evolved sentient being.

Sorry, I know that's not really your point

Modifié par termokanden, 28 avril 2011 - 11:00 .

[GuardianAngel470]

termokanden wrote...

1. Religion. Don't mind her talking about it. I do mind her "hello, have you looked out the window" speech. It was a little annoying.

2. Poetry. Didn't mind. Didn't really care either

3. Racism. Oh no, she isn't a racist, she just doesn't like other races. Wait. I don't think you can get around this one. She IS a racist. I felt like she should have learned in ME1 that other races are fine as well. After all, she's out there saving the universe with them. But then on Horizon, she says very directly that she doesn't like aliens much. Racist.

But what I really don't like about Ashley is the conversation on Horizon (as mentioned by others already). She sort of has the right idea, but she goes much too far. Neither her nor Kaidan will give Shepard the benefit of the doubt, and that's something I find extremely strange.

As I said, the proof that she isn't racist is more inferences and implications. Several lines she says as banter, anytime she becomes really vehement about Terra Firma or Cerberus, and a few other things make her seem less racist and more prejudiced or cynical.

[termokanden]

Indeed. I noticed these things myself. But you can't get around the fact that she doesn't like aliens. She says it herself.

[Manic Sheep]

termokanden wrote...
But what I really don't like about Ashley is the conversation on Horizon (as mentioned by others already). She sort of has the right idea, but she goes much too far. Neither her nor Kaidan will give Shepard the benefit of the doubt, and that's something I find extremely strange.

Really? You show after two years working with the Cerberus who is a known enemy of both the alliance and the council and known for doing some pretty nasty **** and they area suppose to give you the benefit of the doubt and just roll with it? Why would they?
I would not trust my own family if that happened. I think the scene could have been done better. Shepard just kind of acts like an idiot no matter what you pick, ashley and kaidan both sound the same and the mood swing came across abit forced but in concept its fine.

termokanden wrote...

Indeed. I noticed these things myself. But you can't get around the fact that she doesn't like aliens. She says it herself.

Mild racism at worst. She isn't a raging xenophobe like many claim and she is definitely not a supremacist.

Modifié par Manic Sheep, 28 avril 2011 - 11:11 .

[GuardianAngel470]

termokanden wrote...

Indeed. I noticed these things myself. But you can't get around the fact that she doesn't like aliens. She says it herself.

That's true, but that doesn't make her a racist.

[termokanden]

Yes I understand why they'd be upset about the working for Cerberus part. But they don't really try to understand why or what's even going on. Apparently they don't really care about the Reapers coming to destroy everyone either. Since Shepard has already saved the galaxy once when nobody would listen to him/her, perhaps Ash or Kaidan should know better.

Anyway, I didn't say Ashley was a raging xenophobe. But I think it's bad enough as it is. If you want to discuss reasons why people wouldn't like her, this is obviously a major point.

That's true, but that doesn't make her a racist.

Not so sure. She refuses to trust the other races and has ideas about them exploiting humanity. Isn't this a typical racist way of thinking?

Modifié par termokanden, 28 avril 2011 - 11:14 .

[GuardianAngel470]

termokanden wrote...

Yes I understand why they'd be upset about the working for Cerberus part. But they don't really try to understand why or what's even going on. Apparently they don't really care about the Reapers coming to destroy everyone either. Since Shepard has already saved the galaxy once when nobody would listen to him/her, perhaps Ash or Kaidan should know better.

Anyway, I didn't say Ashley was a raging xenophobe. But I think it's bad enough as it is. If you want to discuss reasons why people wouldn't like her, this is obviously a major point.

That's true, but that doesn't make her a racist.

Not so sure. She believes the other races are all about exploiting humanity. Isn't this a classic racist thought?

Not when there's evidence to back up her claim, which there is to an extent. Then it's just cynicism. Also, if that is genuinely the only experience she's had with aliens, it would then not be racism but rather a one sided perception.

[Dean_the_Young]

GodWood wrote...

Collider wrote...
The analogy is not very good.

Why?

Because a surprising number of young adults have failed the reading comprehension portion of their 9th grade SATs.

[Aramintai]

termokanden wrote...

3. Racism. Oh no, she isn't a racist, she just doesn't like other races. Wait. I don't think you can get around this one. She IS a racist. I felt like she should have learned in ME1 that other races are fine as well. After all, she's out there saving the universe with them. But then on Horizon, she says very directly that she doesn't like aliens much. Racist.

I didn't see anything in her point of view that indicates her as racist. If she were she wouldn't snap at Terra Firma supremacists. Though she may be a bit xenophobic (which is not the same as racist btw), but this typical human reaction to foreighners is deeply seated in many people, just not many openly voice it. Also Ashley's family had a bitter history with aliens which influenced her on that matter. I think by the end of ME1 she starts overcoming it, by gaining experience with actually working with aliens and appreciating her alien crewmembers.

Modifié par Aramintai, 28 avril 2011 - 11:19 .

[GuardianAngel470]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Collider wrote...
The analogy is not very good.

Why?

Because a surprising number of young adults have failed the reading comprehension portion of their 9th grade SATs.

Interesting, I didn't know there was such a thing as a 9th grade SAT. I always thought they were called STARs.

Learn something new every day I guess.

[turian councilor Knockout]

Well, i wouldn't go so far as to call distrust racism and considering there was some prejudice against humanity in ME 1 after the incidents in Shanxi, colonization trouble with Batarians and that humanity put so much effort to get more power within the council, i think Ashley is more unsure of how other races views Humanity than being racist.

[Dean_the_Young]

termokanden wrote...

That's true, but that doesn't make her a racist.

Not so sure. She refuses to trust the other races and has ideas about them exploiting humanity. Isn't this a typical racist way of thinking?

No.

Not unless you intend to argue that, because the vast majority of Chinese live in China, anyone with concerns about the state of China or who seeks an alliance with China for their own basis is in fact racist towards the Chinese.


Ashley Williams is a nationalist in a galaxy built around xeno-nationalism. The entire system of governance is based around it: the Council's 'one race, one voice' policy is an enforcement, as is the principal of 'client/subordinate races' that underpins the Council system. Ashley's concerns aren't based around aliens being aliens: Ashley's concerns are based around national competitors and security threats being allowed free-reign in a ship filled with top-secret technology. Who is the technology top-secret to? Every human not cleared, and de-facto the aliens who aren't part of the Alliance.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 28 avril 2011 - 11:24 .

[Dean_the_Young]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Collider wrote...
The analogy is not very good.

Why?

Because a surprising number of young adults have failed the reading comprehension portion of their 9th grade SATs.

Interesting, I didn't know there was such a thing as a 9th grade SAT. I always thought they were called STARs.

Learn something new every day I guess.

I don't know what they call it for what grades anymore. I just remember that the standardized tests were painfully easy and boring.

[syllogi]

termokanden wrote...

Yes I understand why they'd be upset about the working for Cerberus part. But they don't really try to understand why or what's even going on. Apparently they don't really care about the Reapers coming to destroy everyone either. Since Shepard has already saved the galaxy once when nobody would listen to him/her, perhaps Ash or Kaidan should know better.

Anyway, I didn't say Ashley was a raging xenophobe. But I think it's bad enough as it is. If you want to discuss reasons why people wouldn't like her, this is obviously a major point.

It could also be said that on Horizon, Shepard did not care enough to fully explain the situation to the Virmire Survivor.  If Shepard can convince an indoctrinated boss to kill himself, or speak eloquently enough to win a case for someone in a alien court with zero evidence of facts, surely he/she could have been able to talk Ashley/Kaidan into understanding why working with Cerberus was important, right?

We were railroaded on Horizon, and I can't really blame the characters for being written a certain way.  

As for Ashley being a xenophobe, she is a pragmatist.  She doesn't approve of aliens being given access to all parts of the Normandy because she doesn't know them, and honestly, it makes sense for *somebody* to question their presence.  Or do people think it's normal to meet civilians in alleys and then put them in the engine room of your brand new, highly classified military starship?

[termokanden]

Yes they explain why should would have those beliefs. But it still sounds racist to me. I'm not sure if there's one correct definition that means she is not technically a racist but a xenophobe. Doesn't really matter to me. I think she has a horrible way of thinking and I find it incredibly annoying.

Particularly after ME1 where several aliens help save the galaxy and fight on her side, I find it incredible that she STILL dislikes aliens. I had hoped should could at least learn, but no.

Not unless you intend to argue that, because the vast majority of Chinese live in China, anyone with concerns about the state of China or who seeks an alliance with China for their own basis is in fact racist towards the Chinese.

Not sure I see your point.

Ashley doesn't like aliens. It's not a concern about a specific goverment or some aliens in particular.

Modifié par termokanden, 28 avril 2011 - 11:27 .

[GuardianAngel470]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Collider wrote...
The analogy is not very good.

Why?

Because a surprising number of young adults have failed the reading comprehension portion of their 9th grade SATs.

Interesting, I didn't know there was such a thing as a 9th grade SAT. I always thought they were called STARs.

Learn something new every day I guess.

I don't know what they call it for what grades anymore. I just remember that the standardized tests were painfully easy and boring.

Yeah, the standardized tests were called STAR tests where I come from. SAT is for college admission.

Also, if they were painfully easy and boring (as I also remember them being) what makes you think they even went over analogies? And, if they did (because I vaguely remember them being mentioned) what makes you think that the dog/bear analogy was a good one?

And if you do think it was a good one because it does convey the point about species always caring more about themselves than others (called egoism) what makes you think that the analogy was well placed? By that I mean within the structure of the conversation.

[Dean_the_Young]

termokanden wrote...

Yes they explain why should would have those beliefs. But it still sounds racist to me. I'm not sure if there's one correct definition that means she is not technically a racist but a xenophobe. Doesn't really matter to me. I think she has a horrible way of thinking and I find it incredibly annoying.

Xeno-nationalism.

The galaxy is built around it. It's not an exceptional view, it's the underlying basis of the entire Council system.

Particularly after ME1 where several aliens help save the galaxy and fight on her side, I find it incredible that she STILL dislikes aliens. I had hoped should could at least learn, but no.

A rhetorical device isn't to be taken literally.

[Dean_the_Young]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Yeah, the standardized tests were called STAR tests where I come from. SAT is for college admission.

Also, if they were painfully easy and boring (as I also remember them being) what makes you think they even went over analogies? And, if they did (because I vaguely remember them being mentioned) what makes you think that the dog/bear analogy was a good one?

And if you do think it was a good one because it does convey the point about species always caring more about themselves than others (called egoism) what makes you think that the analogy was well placed? By that I mean within the structure of the conversation.

I recall standardized tests going over analogies and rhetorical devices.

Within the structure of the conversation, I believe Ashley's analogy fit very well. She had been talking about how the Council didn't hate us but wasn't going to put itself out on the line for us, and then provided an analogy of a similar relationship. The owner of the dog doesn't dislike the dog, and may care for it greatly, but the prioritization doesn't favor the dog in the face of the bigger threat.

It doesn't take any great skill to recognize that, by her previous statements, the Council was the person and Humanity was the dog.

[termokanden]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

A rhetorical device isn't to be taken literally.

She goes on about why she doesn't trust aliens. She says she doesn't like aliens. I find it quite hard to misunderstand.

[GuardianAngel470]

termokanden wrote...

Particularly after ME1 where several aliens help save the galaxy and fight on her side, I find it incredible that she STILL dislikes aliens. I had hoped should could at least learn, but no.

I just wanted to point out that by the time all that happens and you do save the galaxy, you have heard everything there is to hear from Ashley.

Horizon doesn't contradict the notion that she's changed her views on aliens, it just doesn't address it at all.

So after you save the galaxy, the game ends and you can't talk to Ashley anymore. At the start of ME2, you may or may not have a few lines from her that are pretty much identical to Kaidan and Liara and then you die. Next time you hear from her is on Horizon and we all know how that turns out.

She could easily have changed her stance anywhere in that span of time but because we only hear from her a few times we just don't know if she's changed.