388 réponses à ce sujet

[Eradyn]

First, to get it out of the way, animals have sentience. They are capable of thought, feeling, and awareness. The question is one of sapience.

1: I certainly have no issues with Ashley's religion. So she's monotheistic...aaand? Liara's monotheistic, too, and I have no issue with her matter-of-fact "by the goddess" outbursts. I have no issue with Thane's pantheon of gods and goddesses, either. Nor do I take issue with the turians' animism. Ash's only "crime" was asking if her belief in a higher power was a problem...and judging by the forum backlash, it was for a lot of hypocrites and bigots. Guess that should have been an easy one to answer. At least she doesn't go on about it after the conversation, but for some people, one time is one time too many.

2: Poetry....yeah, that was more annoying to me, but I tolerate it as part of her character. A lot of people have quirks that annoy me, but I don't hate them for something stupidly minor.

3: Her blatant DISTRUST and ignorance of aliens should not be confused with true racism. She has good reason to distrust them (it's kind of her job, not to mention her family history) and her ignorance is understandable considering here severe lack of exposure to sapient aliens. You can encourage Ashley into a more understanding and trusting perspective in ME1, however, by the end of the game. Of course, BW's mistake, perhaps, was in underestimate the pervasiveness and extreme grip of the Politically Correct culture. Anything remotely negative will strike those most sensitive to PC "norms" and they will reflexively, and erroneously, yell "racism" because Ashley reacted to aliens with something less than total love, acceptance, and trust. Nevermind it would make no sense for her to...the point is she did not bow to PC conventions.

As for Horizon...that was poorly written ALL around and BW really should be embarrassed. It was entirely blatant what they were attempting and it only reflects poorly on them and they went beyond fumbling the ball. It's hard for me to lay Horizon at Ashley/Kaidan's feet when the writing was atrociously out of character, and borderline nonsensical, all things considered. Still, I suppose BW succeeded in their goal as Ashley and Kaidan got a lot of hate for Horizon. Mission accomplished, eh Bioware? Pats on the back all around.

[termokanden]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

termokanden wrote...

Particularly after ME1 where several aliens help save the galaxy and fight on her side, I find it incredible that she STILL dislikes aliens. I had hoped should could at least learn, but no.

I just wanted to point out that by the time all that happens and you do save the galaxy, you have heard everything there is to hear from Ashley.

On Horizon, she says she doesn't like aliens much, but she thinks Cerberus is too extremist. I'm not sure you can write that off as a rhetorical device.

Modifié par termokanden, 28 avril 2011 - 11:37 .

[Dean_the_Young]

termokanden wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

A rhetorical device isn't to be taken literally.

She goes on about why she doesn't trust aliens. She says she doesn't like aliens. I find it quite hard to misunderstand.

In ME2?

If you find it hard, perhaps you should place yourself in her position following the events of ME1, when all the Alien species promptly dug a hole, burried you and everything you tried to do, and went going 'nah nah nah' to the threat of the Reapers. Why should she have faith in the words of the Alien governments then, when at least she has Anderson making some effort on the human side?

You assume that faith would have been rewarded.

[Dean_the_Young]

termokanden wrote...

On Horizon, she says she doesn't like aliens much, but she thinks Cerberus is too extremist.

That doesn't mean she dislikes them.

Like and dislike aren't binary. There's always neutral, and the shades of it. Which, from her 'Renegade' ME1 position, would be a step up.

And, again, rhetorical device.

[GuardianAngel470]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Yeah, the standardized tests were called STAR tests where I come from. SAT is for college admission.

Also, if they were painfully easy and boring (as I also remember them being) what makes you think they even went over analogies? And, if they did (because I vaguely remember them being mentioned) what makes you think that the dog/bear analogy was a good one?

And if you do think it was a good one because it does convey the point about species always caring more about themselves than others (called egoism) what makes you think that the analogy was well placed? By that I mean within the structure of the conversation.

I recall standardized tests going over analogies and rhetorical devices.

Within the structure of the conversation, I believe Ashley's analogy fit very well. She had been talking about how the Council didn't hate us but wasn't going to put itself out on the line for us, and then provided an analogy of a similar relationship. The owner of the dog doesn't dislike the dog, and may care for it greatly, but the prioritization doesn't favor the dog in the face of the bigger threat.

It doesn't take any great skill to recognize that, by her previous statements, the Council was the person and Humanity was the dog.

I may have remembered the conversation wrong then. Also, I actually can't remember whether I took the 9th grade STAR test... it's complicated and I won't go into it.

Whatever the case, whether an appropriate analogy or not, it did not create the desired effect and therefore it failed.

[termokanden]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

If you find it hard, perhaps you should place yourself in her position following the events of ME1, when all the Alien species promptly dug a hole, burried you and everything you tried to do, and went going 'nah nah nah' to the threat of the Reapers. Why should she have faith in the words of the Alien governments then, when at least she has Anderson making some effort on the human side?

No, I completely understand why she feels that way. She just fails to realize that this is bunch of politicians, and the human Udina is just as bad if not worse. It wasn't just humans that saved the galaxy either. She notices the bad things but disregards the good examples. If it's only a case of not trusting alien governments, that hasn't been made clear in the games at all, but it would make more sense.

Again, I understand why she feels that way, but it's clear in the ME series that Shepard couldn't get things done without the help of aliens. That wouldn't have happened with Ashley in charge. Yes, I do find that a bit annoying.

On the other hand, I still find her a more interesting character than Kaidan. Now I'll really be unpopular

Dean_the_Young wrote...

And, again, rhetorical device.

How do you know this is not to be taken literally. I don't think that's clear at all. Given her previous statements, I think it's more likely that it's EXACTLY what she means.

Modifié par termokanden, 28 avril 2011 - 11:44 .

[DurkBakala]

The only lines that felt a bit unnecessary or uncomfortable for me were "I can't tell the aliens from the animals" and when she calls them "bug-eyed monsters."

Aside from that, she was one of my favourite characters in ME1 and I thought she was the most developed and fleshed out squad member.

[termokanden]

I always thought those were a mistake by the writers though. That sounds so racist it's a bit out of character.

[Dean_the_Young]

termokanden wrote...


No, I completely understand why she feels that way. She just fails to realize that this is bunch of politicians, and the human Udina is just as bad if not worse.

Or, alternatively, you fail to realize why he isn't.

Personal opinions not shaping to match your own aren't wrong opinions. (Ignorring, mind you, that you can change Ashley's views with a male Shepard.)

It wasn't just humans that saved the galaxy either. She notices the bad things but disregards the good examples. If it's only a case of not trusting alien governments, that hasn't been made clear in the games at all, but it would make more sense.

If it hasn't been made clear in the game, it hasn't been for a lack of trying: besides a personal unfamiliarity with aliens, all of Ashley's concerns have been of a political or security basis.

Again, I understand why she feels that way, but it's clear in the ME series that Shepard couldn't get things done without the help of aliens. That wouldn't have happened with Ashley in charge. Yes, I do find that a bit annoying.

Why wouldn't it have happened? Ashley would have restricted where the Aliens could go on the Normandy, but she was never opposed to working with them.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

And, again, rhetorical device.

How do you know this is not to be taken literally. I don't think that's clear at all. Given her previous statements, I think it's more likely that it's EXACTLY what she means.

Given her previous satements, you'd recognize that her political distrust of alien governments isn't equivalent to a personal dislike of aliens. Ashley never had a personal problem with aliens, nor did she ever oppose working with them. She used the 'I may be X, but they are Y' device more than once in ME1 as well.

Moreover, there's the minor factor that the line is the exact same regardless of whether you paragon-ized Ashley or not. Unless you intend to argue that there's a distinct difference of meaning between the two vastly different world views, one of which is only out-renegaded on the ME1 spectrum by Wrex and a Renegade Kaiden while the other is so Paragon it beats out Liara on the priority scale...

[Dean_the_Young]

DurkBakala wrote...

The only lines that felt a bit unnecessary or uncomfortable for me were "I can't tell the aliens from the animals" and when she calls them "bug-eyed monsters."

Aside from that, she was one of my favourite characters in ME1 and I thought she was the most developed and fleshed out squad member.

On the citadel, though, that's a very real problem. How would you tell an alien animal from a sentient alien?

[termokanden]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Or, alternatively, you fail to realize why he isn't.

Personal opinions not shaping to match your own aren't wrong opinions. (Ignorring, mind you, that you can change Ashley's views with a male Shepard.)

Indeed. Let me make it clearer then. It is my opinion that Udina is a horrible person and the very worst politician stereotype I've seen in a long time. I can't think of a single thing about him that's even remotely likable. If he had succeeded in keeping Shepard from leaving the Citadel, the reapers would have already won.

Given her previous satements, you'd recognize that her political distrust of alien governments isn't equivalent to a personal dislike of aliens. Ashley never had a personal problem with aliens, nor did she ever oppose working with them. She used the 'I may be X, but they are Y' device more than once in ME1 as well.

That's not at all clear from the game I think. You don't see much interaction between her and the alien crew members, but she says she doesn't trust them. She also treats Liara very poorly.

The thought has crossed my mind that it could have been a rhetorical device, and yes I recognized the form. But it still seems far fetched to me to say it doesn't mean anything when she states that she doesn't like aliens. You can in fact use such a rhetorical device and still mean everything you say. And like I said, given her previous attitude, it even seems to be the most likely case.

Moreover, there's the minor factor that the line is the exact same regardless of whether you paragon-ized Ashley or not. Unless you intend to argue that there's a distinct difference of meaning between the two vastly different world views, one of which is only out-renegaded on the ME1 spectrum by Wrex and a Renegade Kaiden while the other is so Paragon it beats out Liara on the priority scale...

I must admit that I have never paragon-ized her and THEN imported that character into ME2. Seems a bit strange that the interaction there would not change based on that.

[GodWood]

And GodWood's contribution to the thread is...
BOOB COMPARING

skcih-deraj wrote...
I see no differance in her chest. Since this whole buissness started about it, I blew off the dust and booted up ME1 and hey guess what... Her chest is exactly the same! (great now I'm that guy) *shakes head*

Anyone ever think its just the armor she's wearing?  

Her chest has increased significantly

Modifié par GodWood, 28 avril 2011 - 12:08 .

[AdmiralCheez]

I think the fact that so many people have a problem with Ashley (including myself) shows that she's an incredibly believable and well-written character. It actually freaked me out a little how much she reminded me of my best friend in real life.

Characters are more fun when they see things differently from me, anyway. I don't need a squad of yes men, and I don't want everyone to be some sort of exotic badass, either. Characters like Ashley, Kaidan, and Jacob are necessary because they're normal people, and Ashley wins in my book as the most realistic of the three.

Frankly, I think Ashley's discomfort around aliens says a lot about where she came from and how she grew up. Her only exposure to non-humans prior to Eden Prime would have been what she saw on TV, what she learned in school, and what her family told her about the First Contact War. She was raised to be a patriot, to believe in and admire humanity's strength and virtue, so it makes sense that in rooting for the home team, so to speak, she'd slander the competition a little. Think of aliens as separate nations instead of different species and you'll see what I mean (the whole "not human" thing would only make the contrast more dramatic if we were to put ourselves in-universe).

[Antivenger]

GodWood wrote...

And GodWood's contribution to the thread is...
BOOB COMPARING
Her chest has increased significantly

I have never and I doubt will ever understand the physics of ":D:D".

Also, sorry for this off-topic question but I've exhausted my fire hose. How do you renegade Kaidan?

Modifié par Antivenger, 28 avril 2011 - 12:33 .

[Dean_the_Young]

termokanden wrote...

That's not at all clear from the game I think. You don't see much interaction between her and the alien crew members, but she says she doesn't trust them. She also treats Liara very poorly.

She has no reason to trust them. Trust is something that's built over time, and Shepard literally picked up two/three unknown aliens off the street in the space of a few hours and gave them free reign of incredibly classified technology. Why? Because the aliens asked to come along. That was it.

Ashley hardly treated Liara poorly because Liara was an alien. Everyone was stressed (according to some of the Shepard lines and post-mission dialogues) come the meetings, and Liara (or, barring her, Tali) pretty much starts trying to assume a leadership role of a military operation. Most soldiers get annoyed if the tag-along civilians started trying to usurp authority like that, whether the civilians realized it or not.

Before the meetings, Ashley hardly treats Liara poorly or unreasonably.

The thought has crossed my mind that it could have been a rhetorical device, and yes I recognized the form. But it still seems far fetched to me to say it doesn't mean anything when she states that she doesn't like aliens. You can in fact use such a rhetorical device and still mean everything you say. And like I said, given her previous attitude, it even seems to be the most likely case.

What in her previous attitude ever marked her as disliking aliens in any sense other than caution? She's skeptical, but not hostile.

I must admit that I have never paragon-ized her and THEN imported that character into ME2. Seems a bit strange that the interaction there would not change based on that.

There's no change for Kaiden either, even though he does a far greater personality shift.

[GodWood]

Antivenger wrote...
Also, sorry for this off-topic question but I've exhausted my fire hose. How do you renegade Kaidan?

First you must be a FemShep

Than you select the dialogue options shown in this video.

[termokanden]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

She has no reason to trust them. Trust is something that's built over time, and Shepard literally picked up two/three unknown aliens off the street in the space of a few hours and gave them free reign of incredibly classified technology. Why? Because the aliens asked to come along. That was it.

Yes that part is a bit strange. I always hated how Shepard just says "welcome aboard" just because someone doesn't like Saren. But she complains about bringing aliens, not just random civilians. Unfortunately we don't know what would happen if Shepard picked up a bunch of humans instead.

Most soldiers get annoyed if the tag-along civilians started trying to usurp authority like that, whether the civilians realized it or not.

Yeah I guess I'll give you that one. I could also see a person like Ashley finding Liara annoying. They are very different.

Before the meetings, Ashley hardly treats Liara poorly or unreasonably.

"Think fast miss prothean expert". I think it's clear from the very moment she meets her that she doesn't like her.

What in her previous attitude ever marked her as disliking aliens in any sense other than caution? She's skeptical, but not hostile.

It's a matter of our interpretation at this point. You claim it's just a rhetorical device. I can't prove you wrong, only the writers would know this. But it would be very fitting for a person who has stated very clearly she doesn't trust the alien crew members to say something like this.

Modifié par termokanden, 28 avril 2011 - 12:41 .

[Dean_the_Young]

termokanden wrote...


Yes that part is a bit strange. I always hated how Shepard just says "welcome aboard" just because someone doesn't like Saren. But she complains about bringing aliens, not just random civilians. Unfortunately we don't know what would happen if Shepard picked up a bunch of humans instead.

The civilians he brings are aliens. In a xeno-national galaxy, 'aliens' is the same as 'foreign nationals.'

Before the meetings, Ashley hardly treats Liara poorly or unreasonably.

"Think fast miss prothean expert". I think it's clear from the very moment she meets her that she doesn't like her.

And challenging a potential security risk to prove her worth isn't unreasonable. Nor have you given any support that dislike is on racial grounds.

It's a matter of our interpretation at this point. You claim it's
just a rhetorical device. I can't prove you wrong, only the writers
would know this. But it would be very fitting for a person who has
stated very clearly she doesn't trust the alien crew members to say
something like this.

Except she didn't raise concerns about the aliens because they were aliens, but because they were a security risks to the Alliance. While at the same time she offers no resistence to working with aliens, trusting them in a fire fight, relying on their intelligence, or taking their offered support.

You're using a selective non-racial concern as proof of racism to support a presumption of racism in a rhetoric that isn't implicitly racist.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 28 avril 2011 - 12:47 .

[termokanden]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The civilians he brings are aliens. In a xeno-national galaxy, 'aliens' is the same as 'foreign nationals.'

I don't see how that changes things.

And challenging a potential security risk to prove her worth isn't unreasonable. Nor have you given any support that dislike is on racial grounds.

The problem is that we're far out of context now. I was trying to say that you don't see much in the way of positive interaction between her and alien crew members, but you do see the negative. But she's right to think Liara might be a security risk. Not that this is what she says though.

Except she didn't raise concerns about the aliens because they were aliens, but because they were a security risks to the Alliance. While at the same time she offers no resistence to working with aliens, trusting them in a fire fight, relying on their intelligence, or taking their offered support.

You're using a selective non-racial concern as proof of racism to support a presumption of racism in a rhetoric that isn't implicitly racist.

She offers no resistance because she is under orders to work with them. This is made clear in the game.

She has a point about not trusting random civilians with the military hardware. But I think the game is trying to tell us that it goes a bit further than that. The game isn't going to label her as one thing or another, that really is up to our interpretation. Unfortunately I don't think it's 100% clear in her case (or rather there isn't that much material to work with).

I do think instinctive distrust of other races is a bit racist. Label it however you want.

Modifié par termokanden, 28 avril 2011 - 12:57 .

[Seboist]

It's hilarious that Ashley gets thrashed for having sane legitimate security concerns about an Alliance ship as a "racist" but Grunt who flat out says he hates Turians gets a pass.

[AdmiralCheez]

Seboist wrote...

It's hilarious that Ashley gets thrashed for having sane legitimate security concerns about an Alliance ship as a "racist" but Grunt who flat out says he hates Turians gets a pass.

Grunt is made of derp and skull-crushing.  That sort of thing is expected from him.

[LadyJaneGrey]

Seboist wrote...

It's hilarious that Ashley gets thrashed for having sane legitimate security concerns about an Alliance ship as a "racist" but Grunt who flat out says he hates Turians gets a pass.

Does Grunt say anything about Salarians?

[termokanden]

This is a thread about Ashley. That's why we're not discussing Grunt

[Dean_the_Young]

termokanden wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

termokanden wrote...

The civilians he brings are aliens. In a xeno-national galaxy, 'aliens' is the same as 'foreign nationals.'

I don't see how that changes things.

You don't? How? Unless you see absolutely everything as racist, I mean.

Nations are political units. The organizations of those political units have the need for secrets that are preserved against the political unit. In the Mass Effect Galaxy, the Council has insured that 'the Alliance' is a political unit, and one that is comprised of... humans. Aliens are outside the political unit, but that doesn't mean that policies aimed to defend the political unit are racist to aliens.


To get more clear: the United States doesn't let Chinese citizens come and go on military bases because they're Chinese (ethnicity), but because they're not Americans who are cleared to be there. Plenty of Americans can't get there as well, and in the context of Mass Effect Ashley isn't any more sympathetic to Cerberus as a non-threat simply because it's human.

The problem is that we're far out of context now. I think was trying to say that you don't see much in the way of positive interaction between her and alien crew members, but you do see the negative. But she's right to think Liara might be a security risk. Not that this is what she says though.

Except the negative interactions you've brought up haven't been because of any racism, but of organizational concerns that are independent of race.

The aliens are not security threats because they are aliens, they are security threats becuase they aren't loyal, cleared Alliance personnel.

Ashley isn't snapping at Liara or Tali because they're aliens and speaking up, but because they're speaking up and trying to usurp control of a military heirarchy. Them being alien is never suggested or implied to be the reason of the reaction.

Ashely doesn't suspect Liara might be a spy because Liara is an alien, but because Liara's mother, Benezia, is working for Saren and Ash feels blood is thicker than water.


The most racist you can actually assign to Ashley is that she presume aliens are like humans.

She offers no resistance because she is under orders to work with them. This is made clear in the game.

She isn't under orders to work with them. Shepard never has to do so. The closest Shepard ever can come to is to order her to drop the concern about the intelligence risks... which, as you've already conceded, isn't racist.

She has a point about not trusting random civilians with the military hardware. But I think the game is trying to tell us that it goes a bit further than that. The game isn't going to label her as one thing or another, that really is up to our interpretation. Unfortunately I don't think it's 100% clear in her case (or rather there isn't that much material to work with).

I do think instinctive distrust of other races is a bit racist. Label it however you want.

Racism is presumed superiority/inferiority on the basis of genetics. Not organizational loyalty. Ashley's distrust, in all its explanations and explorations, has never been because 'they're alien and are worse than us,' but because they 'aren't Alliance.' It's political, not racial, differentiation, and at every time there's been an actual point for presumptions of racial superiority, Ashley has uniformly come out against it.

[termokanden]

Perhaps I can try to formulate it more clearly. I think we're getting lost in arguments about all kinds of things now.

It is explained in the game that Ashley has a past that would make her distrust aliens. She says in ME2 that she does not like aliens. I'm not convinced that is not to be taken literally. She also has completely legitimate concerns about the security, but I do not think that covers it all.

I would define racism not only as a belief that one race is superior to another, but also as discrimination against other races. As an analogy, a person who consistently treats men better than women but without ever saying anything about it would still be a sexist in my book. There doesn't have to be a belief that one is better than the other if there's just a personal feeling that one should be treated better. Not having the capability to trust aliens simply because they are aliens is quite a similar issue, even if she doesn't actually say "humans > turians" or something like that.

Modifié par termokanden, 28 avril 2011 - 01:35 .