388 réponses à ce sujet

[Aramintai]

termokanden wrote...
Not having the capability to trust aliens simply because they are aliens is quite a similar issue, even if she doesn't actually say "humans > turians" or something like that.

What you said here sounds more like xenophobia not racism. There is a difference, so stop misusing the term.

Modifié par Aramintai, 28 avril 2011 - 01:41 .

[termokanden]

I just searched for a definition and found more than one.

But if you like calling it xenophobia instead, let's do that. I still don't think it's an admirable trait.

[Aramintai]

termokanden wrote...

But if you like calling it xenophobia instead, let's do that. I still don't think it's an admirable trait.

It's not, but it's in human nature. Most people just learn to adapt to all things foreign, some don't. In Ashley's case, aside from those few ambiguous comments, which can be written down to her inexperience of dealing with aliens, and her family's past references, there's nothing really to implicate her with that label - she still works and fights alongside with aliens and by the end of ME1 even starts to respect them. If you want to label someone with racism and xenophobia then Terra Firma company easily comes to mind (which is paid by Cerberus btw), but even Ashley frowns upon their bussiness.

Modifié par Aramintai, 28 avril 2011 - 01:59 .

[AlexMBrennan]

Them being alien is never suggested or implied to be the reason of the reaction.

The way I remember the conversation was "should we give these aliens access to the Normandy"; the choice of words is at least unfortunate.

In Mass Effect 2 you not only have a warrior Monk on your squad in Samara but also a religious assassin that prays to polytheistic deities during missions.[...] So why the disconnect

I wonder if that is actually true. I can't judge Thane since I never spoke to him, but I personally I don't think Samara is any better than any other religious extremist - personal delusions don't supersede secular law (also, I have little sympathy for people happy to murder police officers because their code says so).
As for Ash, I am somewhat wary of all but the most liberal* Christians - things like the Christian Institute rallying to support discrimination don't really help.

*If you believe that your holy book is literally written/dictated by God and thus literal truth (rather than, say, a book written centuries ago by humans for contemporary humans) then there simply isn't much point of having a discussion.

Modifié par AlexMBrennan, 28 avril 2011 - 02:02 .

[termokanden]

I will not argue against that Aramintai. I'm not saying I don't like the character either. They don't have to be perfect to be interesting.

But for me the Horizon confrontation was a low point. She makes this comment about not liking aliens, and through the whole thing you are not able to really explain yourself or talk anything through. I really hate that part of the game (also with Kaidan, but a little less there).

Modifié par termokanden, 28 avril 2011 - 01:58 .

[Aramintai]

termokanden wrote...

But for me the Horizon confrontation was a low point. She makes this comment about not liking aliens, and through the whole thing you are not able to really explain yourself or talk anything through. I really hate that part of the game (also with Kaidan, but a little less there).

I think the point of her dialogue on Horizon was exactly to ****** Shepard off. It's a test of loyalty for Shep if she's a LI and justification to remove her from being a squadmate in ME2 overall. Devs either way said that it was planned that way. Some players even found it made easier on their conscience to cheat on her with other girls. 

[Dean_the_Young]

termokanden wrote...

Perhaps I can try to formulate it more clearly. I think we're getting lost in arguments about all kinds of things now.

It is explained in the game that Ashley has a past that would make her distrust aliens. She says in ME2 that she does not like aliens. I'm not convinced that is not to be taken literally. She also has completely legitimate concerns about the security, but I do not think that covers it all.

I would define racism not only as a belief that one race is superior to another, but also as discrimination against other races. As an analogy, a person who consistently treats men better than women but without ever saying anything about it would still be a sexist in my book. There doesn't have to be a belief that one is better than the other if there's just a personal feeling that one should be treated better. Not having the capability to trust aliens simply because they are aliens is quite a similar issue, even if she doesn't actually say "humans > turians" or something like that.

Then you have a critically flawed definition, because a difference of results by category has never meant a different of motivation on account of category. Which only undermines the weight of any label applied.

By your definition, if a man knows five men and five women, and doesn't get along with the five women he knows but does get along with the five men, then he is automatically a sexist because he treats those he gets along with better. It wouldn't matter if the reasons he got along better with men were entirely removed from them being men, or that the reasons he didn't get along with the women was on account of those five women being unpleasant.

Results-oriented definitions ignore motivations or context entirely.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 28 avril 2011 - 02:14 .

[termokanden]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
By your definition, if a man knows five men and five women, and doesn't get along with the five women he knows but does get along with the five men, then he is automatically a sexist. It wouldn't matter if the reasons he got along better with men were entirely removed from them being men, or that the reasons he didn't get along with the women was on account of those five women being unpleasant.

I was afraid you would say something like that. Clearly that's not what I meant.

It isn't result-oriented at all. I'm talking about people who have a tendency to treat people from different groups differently just based on that. People they don't know as well. This is actually quite common. But that doesn't mean they even THINK one group is better than another.

Modifié par termokanden, 28 avril 2011 - 02:18 .

[Dean_the_Young]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Them being alien is never suggested or implied to be the reason of the reaction.

The way I remember the conversation was "should we give these aliens access to the Normandy"; the choice of words is at least unfortunate.

Sure. But it's also far easier and to the point than 'non-Alliance foreign nationals of other racial birth.' There are no aliens in the Alliance. Saying 'alien' automatically implies 'not Alliance,' especially in a context where race IS nationality for all intents and purposes.

It's lazy shorthand. It certainly fits with her lack of word-smith skills and inexperience with foreigners. But when she elaborates her concerns, her concerns are based upon state security concerns, not racial superiority/inferiority concerns.

[Dean_the_Young]

termokanden wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
By your definition, if a man knows five men and five women, and doesn't get along with the five women he knows but does get along with the five men, then he is automatically a sexist. It wouldn't matter if the reasons he got along better with men were entirely removed from them being men, or that the reasons he didn't get along with the women was on account of those five women being unpleasant.

I was afraid you would say something like that. Clearly that's not what I meant.

It isn't result-oriented at all. I'm talking about people who have a tendency to treat people from different groups differently just based on that. People they don't know as well. This goes for a lot of people. But that doesn't mean they even THINK one group is better than another.

It may not be what you meant, but it is entirely what you says means when put into practice. Your confusing categorical affect with motivation, and it is directly fueling your arguments.

Because the people Ashley objects to being allowed free roam on the Normandy are aliens, the reason she objects to people being allowed free roam on the normandy is because they are alien. Because Ashley is rude to Liara and Liara is an alien, Liara being an alien is why Ashley is being rude. Because the other governments Ashley has concerns about in regards to the Alliance aren't human, them being not human is presented to be the reason she's cautious about them.

Those aren't proofs, or basis, or even demonstrations. Those are correlations, without the supported causation. But because the other group has a clear commonality (xenos), you're presume the commonality (xenos) is the cause.

[termokanden]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Because the people Ashley objects to being allowed free roam on the Normandy are aliens, the reason she objects to people being allowed free roam on the normandy is because they are alien. Because Ashley is rude to Liara and Liara is an alien, Liara being an alien is why Ashley is being rude. Because the other governments Ashley has concerns about in regards to the Alliance aren't human, them being not human is presented to be the reason she's cautious about them.

I understand. But there is no way to open Ashley's skull and see if the racist flag is true or false. This is all we have. I can only say that I get the impression that she does have a problem with aliens in general.

Those aren't proofs, or basis, or even demonstrations. Those are correlations, without the supported causation. But because the other group has a clear commonality (xenos), you're presume the commonality (xenos) is the cause.

I know and that's why I say it's an interpretation and not a proof. But it sounds like you're trying everything to excuse her comments. When she says she doesn't trust aliens, you argue that it's just because they are not Alliance, not because they're aliens. This is as much of an assumption as what I'm saying. When she says she doesn't like aliens much, you say it's just a rhetorical device that otherwise means nothing. You don't know that, it's an assumption.

I think we are going to keep disagreeing on this, and there isn't really enough material int the game to settle the matter without a doubt.

Modifié par termokanden, 28 avril 2011 - 02:37 .

[Dean_the_Young]

termokanden wrote...

I understand. But there is no way to open Ashley's skull and see if the racist flag is true or false. This is all we have. I can only say that I get the impression that she does have a problem with aliens in general.

When all her problems with aliens have non-racist explanations that are provided and offered in the context, why assume the impression of racism?

I know and that's why I say it's an interpretation and not a proof. But it sounds like you're trying everything to excuse her comments. When she says she doesn't trust aliens, you argue that it's just because they are not Alliance, not because they're aliens. This is as much of an assumption as what I'm saying. When she says she doesn't like aliens much, you say it's just a rhetorical device that otherwise means nothing. You don't know that, it's an assumption.

I think we are going to keep disagreeing on this, and there isn't really enough material int the game to settle the matter without a doubt.

Her comments deserve to be excused in the context she raises them. She doesn't say she distrusts aliens out of the blue: she says it in the context of incredibly sensitive, proprietary Alliance technology. She isn't even referring to all aliens, but the ones, on board, who could do just that.

I generally do go with a presumption of innocence when misunderstandings slander people.

[termokanden]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

When all her problems with aliens have non-racist explanations that are provided and offered in the context, why assume the impression of racism?

OK, what about the comment about not liking aliens? This comment supports my impression that at least she doesn't trust aliens in general.

Her comments deserve to be excused in the context she raises them. She doesn't say she distrusts aliens out of the blue: she says it in the context of incredibly sensitive, proprietary Alliance technology. She isn't even referring to all aliens, but the ones, on board, who could do just that.

She's right about that part, but it's the comment about not liking aliens as well as her ideas about the other races exploiting humanity for their own purposes that make me think there's more to it than just a simple security concern.

By the way, the Normandy isn't really just Alliance technology. It was developed in cooperation with the turians (and sponsored by the Council too I believe).

I generally do go with a presumption of innocence when misunderstandings slander people.

That's how it should be. But I do think she makes some comments you can't really excuse. And yes now I AM thinking about the part about the aliens and the animals as well. I think it's OK to ask in this case if she's a racist or not.

Like I said, I get the impression that she is a bit racist. But for some of the reasons you've mentioned, I still think it's not entirely clear. There are explanations for a lot of it that don't involve racism.

Modifié par termokanden, 28 avril 2011 - 03:05 .

[jamesp81]

TobiTobsen wrote...

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

lawp79 wrote...

Actually I think its Shepards responces or rather lack of which are the problem with Horizon, Ashley behaves in a way which I believe is true to her character but Shep just stands there like a dribbling fratboy.

This. We were totally railroaded in that conversation, and it wasn't Ashley's fault.

What... you don't think that Shepards "Jo Ash, I'm back. What's up? I'm with Cerberus now! Wanna join?" reaction was appropriate in that situation?

Shepards acts like a big bunch of herp derp on Horizion.

Agree with this.  Ashley may have had the derp expression on Horizon, but Shepard had the derp dialogue.

[jamesp81]

She's right about that part, but it's the comment about not liking
aliens as well as her ideas about the other races exploiting humanity
for their own purposes that make me think there's more to it than just a
simple security concern.

And you think they wouldn't?  What makes you think the aliens are so nice?  They are no different than us.  Many of them would do exactly what she suggests.

Hell, the Council is already happy about humanity colonizing the Terminus and Traverse.  That way the Alliance gets to fight the Batarians and the lawless groups in those areas, instead of the Council.  They're already using humans for their own advantage.

Modifié par jamesp81, 28 avril 2011 - 03:16 .

[termokanden]

Oh I'm sure the Council would do that from what we've seen. I'm talking about aliens in general though. That's what racism is about after all, the whole race and not the individual.

[Apathy1989]

Ash was probably my favourite character from ME1, perhaps in a tie with Garrus. Followed by Wrex. Liara and Tali are interesting as a galactic codex, but don't become good characters to me until ME2.

I can get why people dislike Ash. I didn't like her at first in ME1, since she comes off as formal and racist. However as conversations go along, and you bring her along on missions, you understand she is just an isolationist and a realist.

I can understand people hating her for her religious speech, but as a religious person I found it refreshing in a science fiction game. I often grow tired of the Star trek spin, where humanity has evolved to conclude atheism is the truth.

I don't care much for poetry, but I found it endearing to come from her character. Showed a soft side that made her very attractive.

I hope they do her justice in ME3.

[kumquats]

Ashley has some good points. The Normandy isn't just a Ship, it's a prototype! Just imagin Tali as a human civillian, you know nothing about her and she get's free access? She could be an assassin or a spy for alle we know at that point. 

Ashley isn't racist, she has common sence. She would be an excellent security officer. Shepard is taking a hugh risk in my opinion. A neccesary one I may add.
Or do you believe you can visit the Destiny Ascension and get free access as a human? Yeah right ^^
And only because the asari won't let you, they are all racist?

Her poetry gives her a softer touch, that's a nice balance for this character.
And for being religious, well I don't have a problem with her for believing in a fictional entity, that's fine. But the first crewmember who brings a book of lies on the Normandy, cleans the toilets!
It's my Ship, I make the rules.

[Cyberstrike nTo]

I never had any problems with her being religious she's not a zealot trying to convert everyone, (like Leliana in Dragon Age: Origins). Her interest in poetry gave her some depth to her character. I can understand her "racism" given her family history but Shepard does help her overcome some of it. I don't think she will ever 100% trust aliens but I do think she can over come some of it, but if the rumors are true and she will be a Spectre in Mass Effect 3 it shows at least she can work for aliens.  

Modifié par Cyberstrike nTo, 28 avril 2011 - 03:35 .

[termokanden]

Apathy1989 wrote...
I hope they do her justice in ME3.

Me too. I'm interested in getting this whole Cerberus mess out of the way really.

It'll be interesting to find out how she will deal with the news about what happend in Arrival. If she's happy about it, I'll be the first to scream "racist". Well, not really

But the news about her becoming a spectre is something that confuses me more than her comments about aliens. If she is as much of an Alliance soldier as she claims, should she be a spectre? "Instruments of our will" to a bunch of people she doesn't trust? Maybe she has changed a lot in ME3.

Modifié par termokanden, 28 avril 2011 - 03:41 .

[M4N0FF4I7H]

termokanden wrote...

I understand. But there is no way to open Ashley's skull and see if the racist flag is true or false. This is all we have. I can only say that I get the impression that she does have a problem with aliens in general.

I beg to differ there mate,her writer goes into detail in explicitly denying shes not a racist.
Shouldn't that count as the "racist flag" is false?
If the problem is whether she really is racist or not then the answer is pretty much there:

"I find it interesting that so many people have stereotyped her as "the racist."
At a couple of points she blasts the Terra Firma party as being"bigots,"
and she openly admires the power of the Destiny Ascension in the Citadel
approach cutscene - not quite what you'd expect from a xenophobe.

In her first conversation she spells out her thinking pretty explicitly (the bear and dog metaphor),
and it's nothing more than a short paraphrase of the most memorable passage
in Charles Pelligrino and George Zebrowski's novel "The Killing Star":

When we put our heads together and tried to list everything we could say
with certainty about other civilizations, without having actually met them,
all that we knew boiled down to three simple laws of alien behavior:

1. THEIR SURVIVAL WILL BE MORE IMPORTANT THAN OUR SURVIVAL.
If an alien species has to choose between them and us, they won't choose us.
It is difficult to imagine a contrary case; species don't survive by being self-sacrificing.

2. WIMPS DON'T BECOME TOP DOGS.
No species makes it to the top by being passive. The species in charge of
any given planet will be highly intelligent, alert, aggressive, and ruthless when necessary.

3. THEY WILL ASSUME THAT THE FIRST TWO LAWS APPLY TO US.

And it's hard to dispute this. At the least, you could say the krogan live
by these rules. It's certainly a more suspicious and pessimistic point
of view than most of us are comfortable with. But is it racism, or realism?

Anyway.
I fully expected some people write her off as a bigot. What surprises
me is that no one's pointed out that her position does have some sense.
Evidently, I did something very wrong here.

To answer a question from... I don't know, tens of pages ago, if you romance her and have persuade, you can convince her to be a bit less extreme in her opinions."

Modifié par BornFree87, 28 avril 2011 - 03:57 .

[-Skorpious-]

I like Ashley. She is a wonderful contrast to your average 'sex sells' female videogame lead.

With that said, her new ME3 look/hairstyle miffs me. Didn't Ashley mention in one of her conversations that she dislikes how impractical it is to dress "pretty" while on tour?

Modifié par -Skorpious-, 28 avril 2011 - 04:08 .

[ShadyKat]

Ashley is a bit of an ass hole. It's really that simple.

[termokanden]

BornFree87 wrote...

termokanden wrote...

I understand. But there is no way to open Ashley's skull and see if the racist flag is true or false. This is all we have. I can only say that I get the impression that she does have a problem with aliens in general.

I beg to differ there mate,her writer goes into detail in explicitly denying shes not a racist.
Shouldn't that count as the "racist flag" is false?

It should. But that just makes me think some of her comments don't make a lot of sense. I think the "aliens and animals" comment was a mistake, and they make fun of it in ME2 in fact if Ashley died on Virmire.

But she still says that she doesn't like aliens on Horizon. Haven't seen a good explanation for that one. Perhaps it isn't that important since you don't really get to talk to her there.

Maybe the idea of not trusting aliens is also not seen as racism by a lot of people. I think it depends a lot on why you don't trust them. If you instinctively distrust all aliens, you might have some issues.

But is it racism, or realism?

I find this an interesting question. If you say the Collectors are all a bunch of evil bastards, you'd be a racist but in Mass Effect it really is true. I'm not sure our definitions of racism quite fit the game. After all, we don't have a race of humans that have been indoctrinated and changed by Reapers to be inherently hostile

[jeweledleah]

adds some fuel to the fire.

so its not ok for Ashley to say that she doesn't trust aliens to put well being of humans above their own, but its perfectly ok to say that you don't like humans, don't want to play with human characters and would rather they only brought more aliens to the normandy?