388 réponses à ce sujet

[ShadyKat]

jeweledleah wrote...

adds some fuel to the fire.

so its not ok for Ashley to say that she doesn't trust aliens to put well being of humans above their own, but its perfectly ok to say that you don't like humans, don't want to play with human characters and would rather they only brought more aliens to the normandy?

How is that even the same thing?
ME1&2 did indeed have too many humans in it. Humans are suppose to be new to the galactic stage. So why do they out number the aliens every where you go? Lore wise, it makes no sense. Humans are fine, the series just has too many of them in it.
Ashley simply doesn't like aliens, which is okay. She is entitled to her opinion. It does get old after a while, because every time you talk to her in ME1, she basically takes a shot or two at the aliens. We get it, you don't like them...Give  it a rest.

[PrinceLionheart]

ShadyKat wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

adds some fuel to the fire.

so its not ok for Ashley to say that she doesn't trust aliens to put well being of humans above their own, but its perfectly ok to say that you don't like humans, don't want to play with human characters and would rather they only brought more aliens to the normandy?

How is that even the same thing?
ME1&2 did indeed have too many humans in it. Humans are suppose to be new to the galactic stage. So why do they out number the aliens every where you go? Lore wise, it makes no sense. Humans are fine, the series just has too many of them in it.
Ashley simply doesn't like aliens, which is okay. She is entitled to her opinion. It does get old after a while, because every time you talk to her in ME1, she basically takes a shot or two at the aliens. We get it, you don't like them...Give  it a rest.

Which isn't true at all. 

She never objects to working with Aliens are even having them on the ship. What she doesn't like is them being able to have full reign on a Alliance Prototype Vessel.

[jeweledleah]

humans being everywhere is not the point. Ashley doesn't say she doesn't like aliens in ME1. she says that she doesn't trust them. she doesn't trust random aliens you picked up on a citadel to have so much access to a prototype spaceship and she doesn't think they will help humans over themselves. she's right you know, when your family and your neighbor is in danger, no matter how much you might like your neighbor, your family still comes first.

and she doesn't keep saying it, she asks about it ONLY when pertinent (when you originally bring Wrex/Garrus/Tali on board and when you pick up Liara).

[PrinceLionheart]

jeweledleah wrote...

and she doesn't keep saying it, she asks about it ONLY when pertinent (when you originally bring Wrex/Garrus/Tali on board and when you pick up Liara).

And seriously, her questioning Liara's intentions was even more justified. The fact that she is the daughter of Saren's ally would've been a major case of conflicting loyalty.

[CroGamer002]

You missed few more reasons OP.

Modifié par Mesina2, 28 avril 2011 - 05:03 .

[ADLegend21]

jeweledleah wrote...

humans being everywhere is not the point. Ashley doesn't say she doesn't like aliens in ME1. she says that she doesn't trust them. she doesn't trust random aliens you picked up on a citadel to have so much access to a prototype spaceship and she doesn't think they will help humans over themselves. she's right you know, when your family and your neighbor is in danger, no matter how much you might like your neighbor, your family still comes first.

and she doesn't keep saying it, she asks about it ONLY when pertinent (when you originally bring Wrex/Garrus/Tali on board and when you pick up Liara).

All of this. Executor Palin (head of C-Sec in ME1) says he doesn't trust humans, at all. yet ther's no objection to that it's actually understood, but the same thing from a human? oh they're racist.

[ADLegend21]

ShadyKat wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

adds some fuel to the fire.

so its not ok for Ashley to say that she doesn't trust aliens to put well being of humans above their own, but its perfectly ok to say that you don't like humans, don't want to play with human characters and would rather they only brought more aliens to the normandy?

How is that even the same thing?
ME1&2 did indeed have too many humans in it. Humans are suppose to be new to the galactic stage. So why do they out number the aliens every where you go? Lore wise, it makes no sense. Humans are fine, the series just has too many of them in it.
Ashley simply doesn't like aliens, which is okay. She is entitled to her opinion. It does get old after a while, because every time you talk to her in ME1, she basically takes a shot or two at the aliens. We get it, you don't like them...Give  it a rest.

Actually she only mentions her misturst ONCE. her other conversation is about her family and the third is the romance lock in. No Aliens involved. Also human have been out in the galaxy for about 26 years. aliens even say humanity is advancing too fast and in ME2 we're on the council or we ARE the council so it's understandable for more humans to be on the citadel. Oh and in ME1 we "outnumber" everyone because themain missions are toa human colony and to a human research corporation. Hope that explains it.

[CroGamer002]

ADLegend21 wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

humans being everywhere is not the point. Ashley doesn't say she doesn't like aliens in ME1. she says that she doesn't trust them. she doesn't trust random aliens you picked up on a citadel to have so much access to a prototype spaceship and she doesn't think they will help humans over themselves. she's right you know, when your family and your neighbor is in danger, no matter how much you might like your neighbor, your family still comes first.

and she doesn't keep saying it, she asks about it ONLY when pertinent (when you originally bring Wrex/Garrus/Tali on board and when you pick up Liara).

All of this. Executor Palin (head of C-Sec in ME1) says he doesn't trust humans, at all. yet ther's no objection to that it's actually understood, but the same thing from a human? oh they're racist.

http://t0.gstatic.co...kivPNyjv83Q&t=1


Famous double-standards.

[Soahfreako]

I hate Ashley because she's racist. Simple as that, I could care less that she's religious. She has never survived past Virmire in any of my playthroughs.

[ADLegend21]

Soahfreako wrote...

I hate Ashley because she's racist. Simple as that, I could care less that she's religious. She has never survived past Virmire in any of my playthroughs.

You must not have read any of the posts explaining why she's not racist, or seen that her writer explained how she's not racist. If you want Racist, Talk to Tali about the Geth in Me1.

[Endurium]

My thoughts on the original post:

Ashley only asks Shepard what his/her view is on religion; a common and important thing when there's a chance of a relationship between two people. Other than that, I find Asari to be more openly religious than Ashley. Regardless, it doesn't bother me because I'm secure in my beliefs and I'm not offended because someone else has different beliefs.

Ashley points out Wrex because he's Krogan and they have a reputation for violence. There is the matter of how thorough they were in wiping out the Rachni, how dangerous they were when they rebelled, and how many of them choose to work as mercenaries. She points out Garrus because he's Turian, and Turians figure big in her family's history. Her owner/pet analogy takes what happens every day on our world and relates it to ME's galactic context. In our world power groups use others to do their will with little regard for the well being of the tools/pets. Ashley feels it is the same with certain species who have a greater foothold and history in the galaxy.

Now, I don't really care for her poetry because I don't know a thing about popular writers. I would rather she spoke poetry of her own from her heart than to quote someone else's words. I write my own poems at times of inspiration, and my friends enjoy them because they reflect the person I am. Ashley's poetry causes me to behave like a person who is not listening while the other person blabs on and on. But that's just me, and I don't let it disuade me from liking her, because we are all different and that's what makes things interesting.

I agree the writing on Horizon is awful; Shepard should be able to defend himself better but is instead half-hearted about the whole thing.

In summary, I don't think Ashley is overtly religious, nor do I feel she is overly prejudiced against other species. A paragon Shepard can help her trust other species better, in part by providing an environment (the Normandy) where she can learn to trust them.

Modifié par Endurium, 28 avril 2011 - 05:19 .

[Dean_the_Young]

termokanden wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

When all her problems with aliens have non-racist explanations that are provided and offered in the context, why assume the impression of racism?

OK, what about the comment about not liking aliens? This comment supports my impression that at least she doesn't trust aliens in general.

In the Mass Effect 2 scene? A self-depreciating rhetorical device: by lowering herself, she establishes herself as a more credible standard for criticizing others, whether she's actually as low as she says or not. In the same sense of 'I may not be the smartest tool in the box, BUT that's pretty stupid', 'I may not be a fan of aliens BUT Cerberus is crazy'.

It's a device she's used before. It does not affirm racism. It doesn't even claim to dislike aliens: the opposite of like isn't racism.


Ashley doesn't trust people in general: she's cautious, which is a trait appropriate, and it's not a discriminatory trait. Ashley thinks that Shepard is against her family/toying with her up until the point she realizes that Shepard doesn't actually know. Her suspicion isn't just for the aliens.

She's right about that part, but it's the comment about not liking aliens as well as her ideas about the other races exploiting humanity for their own purposes that make me think there's more to it than just a simple security concern.

How in the least is the belief that other people have their own interests at heart racist in any sense of presumed superiority/inferiority? Especially in light of the Council's open and public history of doing just that?

Unless you mean in the reverse-racism of 'aliens are like us' presumption. Which is judging others as you would judge yourself from a distance. Which rather undermines the core concept of racism, which is establishing (false) differences between yourself and another group.

By the way, the Normandy isn't really just Alliance technology. It was developed in cooperation with the turians (and sponsored by the Council too I believe).

The Stealth drives and the technology behind it are Alliance: the Turians contributed ship-building skills, and the Council paid money. While whether the Turians/Council share the stealth technology is up for debate, it's still not technology Garrus/Wrex/Tali have any real right to being shown.

That's how it should be. But I do think she makes some comments you can't really excuse. And yes now I AM thinking about the part about the aliens and the animals as well. I think it's OK to ask in this case if she's a racist or not.

How would you know an Alien (sentient) from an alien (non-sentient) animal?

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 28 avril 2011 - 05:26 .

[ObserverStatus]

My only problem with her is that she killed Wrex. *shakes fist*

[Clover Rider]

bobobo878 wrote...

My only problem with her is that she killed Wrex. *shakes fist*

This.

[M4N0FF4I7H]

bobobo878 wrote...

My only problem with her is that she killed Wrex. *shakes fist*

Well its better off then you ending as Fist did....dead.

Modifié par BornFree87, 28 avril 2011 - 05:27 .

[Ultai]

Any NCO worth their stripes is going to voice their concern about certain individuals on board a state of the art military stealth ship. Especially if those individuals involve a random krogan merc, a turian who just quit his day job, and a quarian literally poking their nose into the very workings of the damn ship.

[ShadyKat]

PrinceLionheart wrote...

ShadyKat wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

adds some fuel to the fire.

so its not ok for Ashley to say that she doesn't trust aliens to put well being of humans above their own, but its perfectly ok to say that you don't like humans, don't want to play with human characters and would rather they only brought more aliens to the normandy?

How is that even the same thing?
ME1&2 did indeed have too many humans in it. Humans are suppose to be new to the galactic stage. So why do they out number the aliens every where you go? Lore wise, it makes no sense. Humans are fine, the series just has too many of them in it.
Ashley simply doesn't like aliens, which is okay. She is entitled to her opinion. It does get old after a while, because every time you talk to her in ME1, she basically takes a shot or two at the aliens. We get it, you don't like them...Give  it a rest.

Which isn't true at all. 

She never objects to working with Aliens are even having them on the ship. What she doesn't like is them being able to have full reign on a Alliance Prototype Vessel.

I'm currently playing ME1 again. And Ash clearly doesn't like aliens. Yes she will work with them. But every conversation she takes an uncalled for dig at the alien races. She clearly resents them to an extent.

[ADLegend21]

Some Geth wrote...

bobobo878 wrote...

My only problem with her is that she killed Wrex. *shakes fist*

This.

Sounds like some people either didn't find his family armor or didn't put 8 skill points into their Charm or intimidate powers.

[ShadyKat]

Some Geth wrote...

bobobo878 wrote...

My only problem with her is that she killed Wrex. *shakes fist*

This.

If Wrex died in any of your playthroughs, it's 100% your own fault.

[TobiTobsen]

Some Geth wrote...

bobobo878 wrote...

My only problem with her is that she killed Wrex. *shakes fist*

This.

She puts the Krogan down who is seconds away from going berzerk on her commanding officer, who failed to present some convincing arguments to Wrex. She is doing her job. Can't blame her for that, if you ask me.

Modifié par TobiTobsen, 28 avril 2011 - 05:39 .

[PrinceLionheart]

TobiTobsen wrote...

Some Geth wrote...

bobobo878 wrote...

My only problem with her is that she killed Wrex. *shakes fist*

This.

She puts the Krogan down who is seconds away from going berzerk on her commanding officer, who failed to present some convincing arguments to Wrex. She is doing her job. Can't blame her for that, if you ask me.

Nope, if Ashley wasn't racist she would've let Wrex kill Shepard like the rest of the crew who didn't bother stepping in.

[ObserverStatus]

TobiTobsen wrote...

Some Geth wrote...

bobobo878 wrote...

My only problem with her is that she killed Wrex. *shakes fist*

This.

She puts the Krogan down who is seconds away from going berzerk on her commanding officer, who failed to present some convincing arguments to Wrex. She is doing her job. Can't blame her for that, if you ask me.

Shepard can take care of himself, he does have kinetic barriers, after all.  Besides, Wrex wasn't really going to shoot, Ashley was wrong.  My opinion is the one that matters.

[Raanz]

Some Geth wrote...

bobobo878 wrote...

My only problem with her is that she killed Wrex. *shakes fist*

This.

This is why I like her the most. 

Ashely is far from a racist, she just doesn't trust aliens.  The C-Sec officer doesn't trust humans.....most Turians you run into in ME1 can't stand humans, the asari mother in ME2 can't stand any other race but her own.
I think Bioware did a bang up job of developing the Ashely character and I never got the feeling that she was a racist.
When folks throw that term around like it was a handful of pebbles, it diminishes the real meaning.

My opinion is Ash should be more of a featured character in this story of Mass Effect...fricken alien lovers!  

[PMC65]

I didn't originally care for Ash because I didn't like her personality, too rough ... the same reason that when I saw Alien I didn't like Ripley for 2/3 of the movie. But as she began to reveal how she had a "shadow of shame" hanging over her in the Alliance, I started to understand her need to seem "tough".

Religion - Religion and politics are great dividers and so it doesn't surprise me that this would be a reason to not like her for some. What is interesting is that she wasn't preaching or even going into specifics on what she believed (Jewish, Christian, Muslim, ?) yet postings on other threads called her a Christian nut. As Spock would say "Fascinating".  

Poetry - Other than the "Only God can make a tree" poem, I'm not really into them. It also didn't help that I thought the lines weren't delivered well either. Example, Judi Dench or Maggie Smith could read the same poems and I would enjoy listening to them, still wouldn't understand what the frack they meant ... but I wouldn't find it irritating. 

Racism - What? First off, I hate that word because it is used on everyone and everything today. It also seems to be the norm today ... Use one word slurs to kill any kind of debate or discussion. Whenever someone uses that word now, all I see and hear is a child crying "doody doody poo poo".

Ash, to me, doesn't trust aliens and for me that is not only ok but smart. We are new to the galaxy neighborhood, I wouldn't trust them either... I don't trust my own species given our constant repeat of bad history, so why would I give them (aliens) a pass? After all, they are not Sesame Street characters. Even Nihlus says that the galaxy, contrary to what humans think, isn't an ice cream shop. Yeh, not feeling the warm and fuzzy Bert & Ernie here. 

As for her treatment of Liara, I never held that against her since it was more pronounced with the male shep. They both wanted the Shep so I just chucked that down to ****y rivalry. And even then she wasn't 100% ****y ... after Noveria, where Benezia dies, she suggests to Shep that he should see how Liara is doing. 

 

[skcih-deraj]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

termokanden wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

When all her problems with aliens have non-racist explanations that are provided and offered in the context, why assume the impression of racism?

OK, what about the comment about not liking aliens? This comment supports my impression that at least she doesn't trust aliens in general.

In the Mass Effect 2 scene? A self-depreciating rhetorical device: by lowering herself, she establishes herself as a more credible standard for criticizing others, whether she's actually as low as she says or not. In the same sense of 'I may not be the smartest tool in the box, BUT that's pretty stupid', 'I may not be a fan of aliens BUT Cerberus is crazy'.

It's a device she's used before. It does not affirm racism. It doesn't even claim to dislike aliens: the opposite of like isn't racism.


Ashley doesn't trust people in general: she's cautious, which is a trait appropriate, and it's not a discriminatory trait. Ashley thinks that Shepard is against her family/toying with her up until the point she realizes that Shepard doesn't actually know. Her suspicion isn't just for the aliens.

She's right about that part, but it's the comment about not liking aliens as well as her ideas about the other races exploiting humanity for their own purposes that make me think there's more to it than just a simple security concern.

How in the least is the belief that other people have their own interests at heart racist in any sense of presumed superiority/inferiority? Especially in light of the Council's open and public history of doing just that?

Unless you mean in the reverse-racism of 'aliens are like us' presumption. Which is judging others as you would judge yourself from a distance. Which rather undermines the core concept of racism, which is establishing (false) differences between yourself and another group.

By the way, the Normandy isn't really just Alliance technology. It was developed in cooperation with the turians (and sponsored by the Council too I believe).

The Stealth drives and the technology behind it are Alliance: the Turians contributed ship-building skills, and the Council paid money. While whether the Turians/Council share the stealth technology is up for debate, it's still not technology Garrus/Wrex/Tali have any real right to being shown.

That's how it should be. But I do think she makes some comments you can't really excuse. And yes now I AM thinking about the part about the aliens and the animals as well. I think it's OK to ask in this case if she's a racist or not.

How would you know an Alien (sentient) from an alien (non-sentient) animal?

Quoted becuase I think Dean's points need to be seen some more. 

And to add a little bit, she said the "can't tell the aliens from the animals" thing in the context of a joke. She does that a few times (like when you bring her to therom and she dares you to spit over the side) Not the point though. She didn't mean anything by it and when people bring that point up they are making one comment into something bigger.

And the whole "she killed wrex" is just silly. It was either wrex shoots shepard or shepard shoots wrex. Ashley was just faster wile shepard was having his/her dramatic stare down with a Krogan. And she only does it if your shepard fails at convincing him that the base needs to be destroyed or you kill him. Whinning doesn't change the fact that wrex's fate is up to the player.