388 réponses à ce sujet

[Manic Sheep]

Brownfinger wrote...

That's all fine and good, but you're ignoring intent.
If a Turian said "I can't tell the humans from the monkeys", would you take that as a scientific statement? No. It's an insult.

Twist it however you like, but you can't mask the intent.

Ignoring intent? You’re basing you knowledge of her “intent” off what? Why do people assume if it as something to do with animals it automatically derogatory. And your “I can't tell the humans (specific) from the monkeys(specific)" is not the same. Both aliens and animals were referring to whole group. Aliens being anything with ‘higher intelligence’ and animals being anything that does not. If a Turian came to earth and didn’t know what had higher intelligence and what did not, him saying “I can’t tell the aliens (humans) from the animals (say cats or birds or whatever is just wondering around at the time)" would not by default be a racist comment.

Modifié par Manic Sheep, 29 avril 2011 - 02:18 .

[Abispa]

You don't have to be a racist to think the Council is made up of inferior life forms and the Alliance is run by a bunch of bonobos.

[jeweledleah]

Volus Warlord wrote...

Saying you don't hate anyone doesn't make you tolerant, it just makes you a liar.

Why can't people see through their own hypocrisy?

becasue its completely impossible not to hate, right?

saying that you don't hate anyone is not the same as saying that you luuurve everyone.  Hate is such a wasteful, pointless emotion, especialy when it comes to fictional character, but even in real life holding on to hate, letting it fester ... what for?  I especialy don't understand using hate as some sort of crutch, a strange sort of proof that your love for another character is that much more valid.


Edited to add - "I can't tell aliens from animals" is bugged.  she was only supposed to say it around keepers.

Modifié par jeweledleah, 29 avril 2011 - 02:27 .

[Collider]

GodWood wrote...

Collider wrote...
The analogy is not very good.

Why?

Dogs are being compared to sapient aliens capable of higher thought. That's the biggest problem.
Dogs are not sapient creatures capable (so far as we know) of higher thought. People would not sick their dog on the bear because the dog is a different species, but because the dog is more expendable.

[Manic Sheep]

Collider wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Collider wrote...
The analogy is not very good.

Why?

Dogs are being compared to sapient aliens capable of higher thought. That's the biggest problem.
Dogs are not sapient creatures capable (so far as we know) of higher thought. People would not sick their dog on the bear because the dog is a different species, but because the dog is more expendable.

But humans were the dog in that example. That was when she was explaining why you can't rely on aliens to be there and sacrifice themselves for humans.

Modifié par Manic Sheep, 29 avril 2011 - 02:44 .

[Collider]

Manic Sheep wrote...

Collider wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Collider wrote...
The analogy is not very good.

Why?

Dogs are being compared to sapient aliens capable of higher thought. That's the biggest problem.
Dogs are not sapient creatures capable (so far as we know) of higher thought. People would not sick their dog on the bear because the dog is a different species, but because the dog is more expendable.

But humans were the dog in that example. That was when she was explaining why you can't rely on aliens to be there for humans.

That is not quite the point. The point was that the analogy is flawed and does not truly fit. That humans are being compared to dogs would show that. The analogy alone would only be something poorly worded on Ashley's part, but when coupled with the other things Ashley says (including the rather forward "I'm not a fan of aliens), it paints a certain picture.

[Lord Atlia]

I think I might have liked Ashley more if she was a racist, religious zealot.

[Malanek]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...
In Mass Effect 1 the player is given a host of imformation regarding religion in the galaxy. Codex entries are dedicated to analyzing each major species religious convictions and divergences. Liara often exclaims with the line "By the Goddess" in various situations. So then, why is it Ashley that gets the hate? Why does ashley get called a zealot when, aside from one or two conversations, it never comes up?

I haven't read the rest of this thread but the fact is that Ashley is religious and Liara isn't. I take the lords name in vain all too often and I am not the slightest bit religious. It is simply an expression. Throughout the game Ashley makes several references to god outside of when she talks to shepard. ie "damn shame, god only gives you one life". I can remember having this argument a long time ago and I documented quite a few of them. I'm not even saying this is a bad thing, Ashley seems like a very real, and controversial character.

[Brownfinger]

Manic Sheep wrote...
 Why do people assume if it as something to do with animals it automatically derogatory.

Common sense.
It's perectly okay to like her, but the excuses are incredibly weak. God forbid, if you approached a group of black people and called them monkeys, I think any sensible person within earshot would be horrified, myself included.

Manic Sheep wrote...
 If a Turian came to earth and didn’t know what had higher intelligence and what did not, him saying “I can’t tell the aliens (humans) from the animals (say cats or birds or whatever is just wondering around at the time)" would not by default be a racist comment.

And that would be a superb point if Ashley was interacting with and witnessing alien life for the first time. I think it's safe to say that so many decades after first contact, she's perfectly aware of other sentient beings on the galactic stage.
So yeah, kind of a poor example. This is pretty silly. Is there really no better defense for her than trying to find strange technicalities that make no sense and don't apply?

Manic Sheep wrote...
Ignoring intent? You’re basing you knowledge of her “intent” off what?

Uh, by the things she says. XD It's not as if Ashley is subtle or minces words.
If you want to continue to ignore all the evidence because you like her, that's certainly your perogative. But there's no smoke without fire, and most people seem to have no trouble recognizing her xenophobic tendencies.

And yes, people can change. Navigator Presley certainly did. But Ashley's clear, overt disdian runs a bit deeper, and it's a bit more personal for her. I can understand why she'd feel that way, although I disagree with it. I wouldn't be surprised at all if Bioware put her through some ordeal in Mass Effect 3 that helps her to rethink her harsh judgements.
I'd be the first to welcome it. =D In fact, in my new playthrough, I'm intentionally keeping her around to see the direction they take her, as opposed to my initial run in which I happily let her burn.

Modifié par Brownfinger, 29 avril 2011 - 03:05 .

[MGIII]

She's pretty boring to me.

She's genuine at least.

[Ultai]

Saphra Deden wrote...

People hate Ashley primarily because she espouses politically incorrect opinions. In today's world nationalism is not popular or accepted in many circles. The same people who hate her for that also hate her for her religion which they universally assume to be Christian.

It may be because it's just a convenient word to throw around, but I'm loving the fact that people use the word hate alot in regards to Ashley, simply because she doesn't trust aliens.  I guess we're just supposed to take every alien's word for it on everything they say (rachni queen comes to mind).

[Faust1991]

Honestly i don't like her because she continously forced herself on me and just rubbed off as a whiny ****.  I never used her once i got my other followers and the fact that she would berrate them (the very same people who's races we would need to untie with to win) pissed me off too.  Then i was unknowingly romanced with her (believe me people i tried my best not to) so no im contemplating doing a new run through in ME1 to not let that happen and jeporadize my relationship with tali in ME3.

[PrinceLionheart]

Brownfinger wrote...

And that would be a superb point if Ashley was interacting with and witnessing alien life for the first time. I think it's safe to say that so many decades after first contact, she's perfectly aware of other sentient beings on the galactic stage.
So yeah, kind of a poor example. This is pretty silly. Is there really no better defense for her than trying to find strange technicalities that make no sense and don't apply?

Just the opposite actually. Up until the the events of the game, Ashley really only has second hand knowledge of any of the alien species since she spent her childhood living in human communities, and then her career groundside.

The problem with your argument is your compairing it to how humans would act to one another. Save for Asari, none of them "look" human, and for someone like Ash who has no personal experience with these "creatures" it would be off putting. If anything she made the comment out of ignorance, not malicious intent. 

[Manic Sheep]

Well for starter I never said she is racist at all. I think she is mildly racist but this line is not racist.

Brownfinger wrote...

Manic Sheep wrote...
Why do people assume if it as something to do with animals it automatically derogatory.

Common sense.
It's perectly okay to like her, but the excuses are incredibly weak. God forbid, if you approached a group of black people and called them monkeys, I think any sensible person within earshot would be horrified, myself included.

If you actually called a group of black people monkeys yes. She did not call aliens animals. Yet people jump on the word animal. Not to mention you compare someone to an animal without it being derogatory. People do so all the time.

Brownfinger wrote...

Manic Sheep wrote...
If a Turian came to earth and didn’t know what had higher intelligence and what did not, him saying “I can’t tell the aliens (humans) from the animals (say cats or birds or whatever is just wondering around at the time)" would not by default be a racist comment.

And that would be a superb point if Ashley was interacting with and witnessing alien life for the first time. I think it's safe to say that so many decades after first contact, she's perfectly aware of other sentient beings on the galactic stage.
So yeah, kind of a poor example. This is pretty silly. Is there really no better defense for her than trying to find strange technicalities that make no sense and don't apply?

Ashley had never worked with aliens before and she never been to the citadel. I don’t think she had even talked to an alien before. Apparently the line is bugged and she is only meant to say it around keepers and she had no idea what a keeper was. It was only what...26 years after first contact?  Not long enough for all of this to be common knowledge and she was in an environment that was completely new to her.

Brownfinger wrote...

ManicSheep wrote...
Ignoring intent? You’re basing you knowledge of her “intent” off what?

Uh, by the things she says. XD It's not as if Ashley is subtle or minces words.
If you want to continue to ignore all the evidence because you like her, that's certainly your perogative. But there's no smoke without fire, and most people seem to have no trouble recognizing her xenophobic tendencies.

You mean the things she says that are not actually racist?

Modifié par Manic Sheep, 29 avril 2011 - 03:44 .

[Brownfinger]

And yet she knew that they were intelligent creatures, which shoots a
hole in the foot of your "She sees them like dogs!" delusion. I'm pretty sure that if you serve within a military that cooperates with alien life and has been for nearly three decades, you're gonna get wind of the fact that, hey, we're not alone in the universe. To argue otherwise is laughably absurd.

She did not call aliens animals.

Except when she outright likened them to animals when you talk to her on the Citadel.

Eeeeeeyup.

Man, you guys are really reaching to defend this chick. Rocking back and forth, fingers in your ears, refusing to hear the truth. I can dismiss the senseless excuses, but flat out denials of things that are presented
as reality within the game universe... that's just silly.
It's not the worst thing ever that she's a xenophobe, really. As I said before, Bioware presents her and says "This is how she is, she's abrasive and maybe not for everyone and we make no apologies for it." And I think that's cool. It's the same with Jack, who I think is a fun character and a wild card. When characters like that open up and show their softer side to you, it means more.

[Manic Sheep]

Brownfinger wrote...

And yet she knew that they were intelligent creatures, which shoots a
hole in the foot of your "She sees them like dogs!" delusion. I'm pretty sure that if you serve within a military that cooperates with alien life and has been for nearly three decades, you're gonna get wind of the fact that, hey, we're not alone in the universe. To argue otherwise is laughably absurd.

What on earth are you talking about. I never said "she sees them like dogs" and you missed the point completely. It is not that she does not know there is sentient life. That would be stupid and I’m pretty sure she would know the main 3 even if she hasn't seen them. However that does not mean she knows what every sentient species in the universe looks like. Once again if an alien came to earth and didn't know humans were the only sentient on this planet and what species specifically out of all the ones on earth has higher intelligence it would not be racist if he could not tell whether a bird was sentient at first glance. She wouldn't know all of the species living in the citadel so how would she know what is and is not sentient just from looks alone? A pyjak could be sentient for all she knows.

Brownfinger wrote..
Except when she outright likened them to animals when you talk to her on the Citadel.

There is a big difference between saying they are animals and she can’t tell the difference between what might be an animal and what might be an alien.

Modifié par Manic Sheep, 29 avril 2011 - 06:41 .

[100k]

Abispa wrote...

To hell with the ME3 catsuit for Ashley. I have the original ME, and my Shepard and the players got to see her naked!

The VS response to Shepard was completely understandable. After all, RAISING SOMEONE FROM THE DEAD IS SUPPOSED TO BE IMPOSSIBLE FOR ANYONE EXCEPT GOD (who may or may not exist), even in the ME universe. I realize that it is a common comic book, fantasy, and sci-fi cliche, and it only takes Shepard to about two seconds to absorb the "shocking" (cliche) news of her death and resurrection before s/he starts blowing up robots, but I applaud Bioware for making SOMEBODY suspicious of his/her return through CERBERUS. Cerberus, you know, the military black ops organization that spends half of ME trying to kill you.

Instead of being disappointed by the VS response, what the hell is going on with everyone else? Outside of Cerberus and Liara, who know the whole story, no one else should just take Shepard coming back from the dead in stride. Especially the aliens! Since, you know, Cerberus is viewed by non-humans as a human-centric terrorist hate group.

Yes, well, the entire scene in ME2 on Horizon is 100% the fault of Bioware's writers either not trying, or not trying to try (for the sake of ME3).


Ashley voices her suspicions, and I get, respect, and like that. Shepard coming back from the dead? Someone asking him what the fvck is going on? Sounds reasonable. 

But then Bioware tricks (yes, tricks) the player into choosing two logical answers on the scroll wheel, with utterly vague dialogue from Shepard. 

Legend:
'leads to' equals => 
*player thought* 

Why didn't you contact me commander? 

I wasn't even conscious => *sounds personable* => "Cerberus brought me back to stop attacks like this."

*What the hell??? It sounds like I went on vacation, or was recovering from a minor swelling pain in my legs! I wanted to tell her that I was dead for two years, and only woke up a few weeks ago!*

=>

I'm not with Cerberus! => *well, at least this should be reasonable--* => "Ash, you know me. You know I'd only do this for the right reason."

*waitwaitwaitwaitwait! I must've chosen the wrong conversation option! I'm pretty sure Shepard just said the opposite of what I wanted to say!*

I can forgive most of ME2. But what I can't forgive is when developers as high tier as Bioware trick the player into saying/doing awful things, like choosing between Jack or Miranda, or fooling us into awful dialogue like that. That's just cheap-- and this is coming from someone who loves Bioware to death.

Modifié par 100k, 29 avril 2011 - 04:27 .

[BlackEssence]

Most of you who dislike Ashley said what I was going to. I don't like her personality and I don't like her analogy and unmitigated gal to try to justify her insecurities around other aliens species. The only thing I do have in common with her that she and I do believe in the big guy upstairs, but that's all. Other than that, I thought her character was wack as crack, and I, specifically, hated her usage of the name "Skipper" for me. Boy, did I loath that with a passion.

And don't get me started on the meeting with both her and kaidan's response to me on Horizon. I'll end up breaking them down like fractions.

That's all I wanted to say.


*And AMEN to what 100k said. Boy, I could voice my opinion on that all day long. ALL DAY LONG! >___<* But, I digress.*

Modifié par BlackEssence, 29 avril 2011 - 04:30 .

[aeetos21]

I'm too fat and lazy to read what everyone else wrote - well definitely lazy lol. I think it's less of her beliefs and more about how she communicates them. I don't really think there are too many people who like how she came off on Horizon but when you sit down, take away her accusations, and focus on her reasoning for her mistrust it's hard not to understand where she's coming from. The same can be true for a lot she says - though the bear dog thing was a definite low point in tact.

[GuardianAngel470]

Malanek999 wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...
In Mass Effect 1 the player is given a host of imformation regarding religion in the galaxy. Codex entries are dedicated to analyzing each major species religious convictions and divergences. Liara often exclaims with the line "By the Goddess" in various situations. So then, why is it Ashley that gets the hate? Why does ashley get called a zealot when, aside from one or two conversations, it never comes up?

I haven't read the rest of this thread but the fact is that Ashley is religious and Liara isn't. I take the lords name in vain all too often and I am not the slightest bit religious. It is simply an expression. Throughout the game Ashley makes several references to god outside of when she talks to shepard. ie "damn shame, god only gives you one life". I can remember having this argument a long time ago and I documented quite a few of them. I'm not even saying this is a bad thing, Ashley seems like a very real, and controversial character.

And thane prays on screen to multiple gods. He is relegious too, and so is Samara. Point was that these characters don't get the same treatment when they are just as overtly religious as Ashley.

[GuardianAngel470]

Collider wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Collider wrote...
The analogy is not very good.

Why?

Dogs are being compared to sapient aliens capable of higher thought. That's the biggest problem.
Dogs are not sapient creatures capable (so far as we know) of higher thought. People would not sick their dog on the bear because the dog is a different species, but because the dog is more expendable.

Now, her point might have been well made with that comparison, but then she essentially breaks the logic of it by saying "Even if you love your dog, it isn't human". So if the dog is supposed to be humanity and the person is supposed to be the Council, the way she presents the analogy, especially in that comparison and the use of the word "you", destroys the logic of it.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Maybe it wasn't a perfect metaphor but I think people are getting too caught up in the dog part of Ashley's statement. Her point still stands if she had used people. You're probably going to care more for someone who you know than somehow you just met. And you can't really sick an acquaintance on a bear to escape, I think using a dog was just a more convenient way to phrase her statement.

If you had never seen a hanar before, then is there really any way to tell for sure that it's a sapient being before it start's talking to you?

[What?]

The only thing I disliked about Ashley was the fact she enjoyed Walt Whitman. Other than that, she's cool.

[GuardianAngel470]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Maybe it wasn't a perfect metaphor but I think people are getting too caught up in the dog part of Ashley's statement. Her point still stands if she had used people. You're probably going to care more for someone who you know than somehow you just met. And you can't really sick an acquaintance on a bear to escape, I think using a dog was just a more convenient way to phrase her statement.

If you had never seen a hanar before, then is there really any way to tell for sure that it's a sapient being before it start's talking to you?

If a building was on fire and your friend and a stranger were inside and you could only save one, you would save your friend and leave the stranger to die. People you have a connection to will always be more important.

There, I just made an analogy that doesn't compare anyone to anything untoward. Basically, Ashley has suffered from a long string of bad writing decisions that have nothing to do with her character. 

Now I think I should probably clarify my position. I dislike Ashley. I find her personality abrasive because of her lack of tact and harsh comments and I do not like her poetry reading.

However, I do not hate her. I also do not think she is racist. The point of my OP was to explain to Ashley fans where some of the hate comes from to help them better understand, and thus accept, other people's opinions.

Modifié par GuardianAngel470, 29 avril 2011 - 08:44 .