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[Jedi Master of Orion]

I think it sort of undermines the argument that Ashley hates aliens if anyone who thinks so uses the evidencet that she compared humans to a dog.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 29 avril 2011 - 08:50 .

[Antivenger]

Arcian wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I think it sort of undermines the argument that Ashley hates aliens if anyone who thinks so uses the evidencet that she compared humans to a dog.

I thought that was obvious. She argues that the Council will throw away their pet dog (The Alliance) if they are ever beset by a bear (massive Terminus attack/Reapers, for example)

People really thought she argued Council was the dog to humanity...?

I was shocked when I first found out about people hating her for being "racist".

But that...

I really can't believe anyone could be that stupid. I always thought people hated that analogy (and by extension, her) because she uses sending a dog to be mauled by a bear as reference.

[GuardianAngel470]

Saphra Deden wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

There, I just made an analogy that doesn't compare anyone to anything untoward. Basically, Ashley has suffered from a long string of bad writing decisions that have nothing to do with her character.

You made the same analogy Ashley did.

I have no idea how to argue with this. Are you using the Chewbacca defense here, because I'm terribly confused.

[GuardianAngel470]

Arcian wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I think it sort of undermines the argument that Ashley hates aliens if anyone who thinks so uses the evidencet that she compared humans to a dog.

I thought that was obvious. She argues that the Council will throw away their pet dog (The Alliance) if they are ever beset by a bear (massive Terminus attack/Reapers, for example)

People really thought she argued Council was the dog to humanity...?

Personally, I thought about it on a much more personal level. As in individual aliens not great conglomerations like the council and the vast generalization that is humanity.

That's just how I think.

[celuloid]

Is she racist or is she not?
I don't know, I picked Kaidan on Virmire because he isn't voiced by black.

/that was a joke

Modifié par celuloid, 29 avril 2011 - 10:11 .

[hawat333]

People generalize the statement too much.
I, for example, hate Tali for the sole purpose of making fun of Talimancers (yeah, I'm evil like that) while actually I don't care.
But I do love Ash! And yeah, I'm an atheist. I'm also into prose, not into poetry. On top of that my very best friend has completely different skin color like me.

Here goes your reasoning why people hate Ash.

[man giraffedog000]

I've come to warn you about MAN-GIRAFFE-DOG!! It's the single greatest threat to humanity!! RUN AWAY!!



I'm still more Serial than ever guys.

[mangiraffe dog000]

I've come to warn you about MAN-GIRAFFE-DOG!! It's the single greatest threat to humanity!! RUN AWAY!!



I'm still more Serial than ever guys.

[GuardianAngel470]

hawat333 wrote...

People generalize the statement too much.
I, for example, hate Tali for the sole purpose of making fun of Talimancers (yeah, I'm evil like that) while actually I don't care.
But I do love Ash! And yeah, I'm an atheist. I'm also into prose, not into poetry. On top of that my very best friend has completely different skin color like me.

Here goes your reasoning why people hate Ash.

Please! Make it Stop! I can only tolerate one chewbacca defense at a time, my frontal lobe is imploding!!

[Eradyn]

I think you misunderstand just what a "Chewbacca Defense" is.

[GuardianAngel470]

Eradyn wrote...

I think you misunderstand just what a "Chewbacca Defense" is.

It's a derivative of the red harring fallacy in which you say something to distract an opponent from the topic and away from your logical inconsistencies.

Specifically, it is something designed to so confuse an opponent that they are incapable of retaliating.

[Krimson_Wolf]

Granted Ash is kinda hard to handle but once I got to know her it was a lot easer to understand her, then I started to like her.

[Alienmorph]

hawat333 wrote...

People generalize the statement too much.
I, for example, hate Tali for the sole purpose of making fun of Talimancers (yeah, I'm evil like that) while actually I don't care.
But I do love Ash! And yeah, I'm an atheist. I'm also into prose, not into poetry. On top of that my very best friend has completely different skin color like me.

Here goes your reasoning why people hate Ash.

I'm gonna make a screen of this post and show it the next time one member of your Alliance will say that you're more mature or intellingent than us. Thanks.

Back ontopic. Simply sometimes people are so silly to need to hate something/someone. I don't hate Ash, but neither is on the top of my favourite characters' list. She's a person with some hudge interior contrasts, wich they make her more interesting, but also easier to finish under the haters' fire. Also many dumb people use the Horizon's scene as ultimate excuse for bi*****g against her, while her general reaction was sensed but ruined by silly-written dialogues.

[termokanden]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

termokanden wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

When all her problems with aliens have non-racist explanations that are provided and offered in the context, why assume the impression of racism?

OK, what about the comment about not liking aliens? This comment supports my impression that at least she doesn't trust aliens in general.

In the Mass Effect 2 scene? A self-depreciating rhetorical device: by lowering herself, she establishes herself as a more credible standard for criticizing others, whether she's actually as low as she says or not. In the same sense of 'I may not be the smartest tool in the box, BUT that's pretty stupid', 'I may not be a fan of aliens BUT Cerberus is crazy'.

It's a device she's used before. It does not affirm racism. It doesn't even claim to dislike aliens: the opposite of like isn't racism.

Again, you don't need to explain how it works. The fact of the matter is that she has previously expressed very openly that she doesn't trust your alien crewmembers, and she has made the aliens and animals remark as well (and I certainly don't buy your excuse for it). When she uses a rhetorical device saying she doesn't like aliens much, it is quite easy to take it literally.

While it's true that you can use such a rhetorical device without actually being serious about the first part, it's extremely unfortunate for Ash of all people to be using it, considering previous remarks and her attitude. It makes it too easy to take it literally. That's all I'm saying.

It's very possible that Ash is not a racist (it doesn't seem very likely that BioWare would give you a blatantly racist squadmate anyway). But in that case she makes some seriously unfortunate remarks. It's easy to get the idea that she is one, and this is a thread about why people might dislike her. This was all meant to be my explanation as to why people might get this idea. Well there you go.

How in the least is the belief that other people have their own interests at heart racist in any sense of presumed superiority/inferiority? Especially in light of the Council's open and public history of doing just that?

Saying that another race is generally selfish and doesn't really mind sacrificing humanity, doesn't that imply moral inferiority? I think it does. At least it's a very clear "it's us versus them" mentality.

How would you know an Alien (sentient) from an alien (non-sentient) animal?

Well I don't know. Could be she had the ability to learn about the few other sentient races in the Mass Effect universe? The player knows them all in the first half hour of playing or so. I'm sure Ash is clever enough to learn such things as well.

[GuardianAngel470]

lawp79 wrote...

The problem with Ash haters is they will never listen to anyone elses opinion they just post "RACIST, RACIST HILLBILLY" the irony is beautiful.

Quite frankly that is true of Ash lovers, Base Keepers, Base Destroyers, and pretty much every single group with anything that even resembles an opinion on this site. My post is to help you, as an Ash fan, understand the reasons behind that opinion because you will never change them.

[termokanden]

Well I tried to post arguments as well. It's easy to get the impression that she is a racist, but they are probably really just unfortunate remarks that make her sound this way.

In my current "canon" playthrough with femShep, I decided to let Ash survive on Virmire. My own RP idea was that she would learn that positive cooperation with aliens is possible. I never really thought she was blatantly racist or anything. But the few remarks do annoy me somewhat, and that's what I've been writing about.

Last I heard from her was on Horizon. I thought the remark about aliens was unfortunate. But as for the whole situation, I couldn't help but think that she's absolutely right about everything she says to Shepard there. But I still think it's a low point, because you can't really discuss how there are more important things at stake. Shepard seemingly isn't capable of getting that point across. After talking Saren into shooting himself, that seems a bit silly.

Modifié par termokanden, 29 avril 2011 - 02:44 .

[Abispa]

It is NOT racist for a soldier to question her commander for taking on alien crew members. While it seems that a Specter has the authority to deputize anyone s/he wants off the street, that is NOT even REMOTELY usual behavior for a commander of a military vessel outside of the occasional television show where Jethro can simply transfer Israeli secret agents and White House Secret Service personnel into NCIS because they're good looking.

If I'm serving on a Navy vessel and my commander said, "Hey, we're on an important mission, and I just happened to bump into this bad-ass mercenary, this computer geek, this security guard with a chip on his shoulder, and this cute bookworm whose mom is working with that madman we're chasing. They all seem pretty good at their jobs, though, so I'm making them part of the crew!" Now, being an American serviceman, if all the people s/he brought on unilaterally were Mexicans, Canadians, Arabs, Mormons, college students, etc., I would probably take my commander aside and say, "ARE YOU FRAKING NUTS!? WHAT MAKES YOU THINK WE CAN TRUST THESE MEXICANS/CANADIANS/ARABS/MORMONS/COLLEGE STUDENTS/ETC.!?" And if they were aliens, I would have said "aliens."

Ashley was far more reasonable expressing her concerns than I would have been.

And her "I can't tell the aliens from the animals" was not diplomatic, but understandable. Although it is a human centric way of looking at things, two things that express intelligence to humans are communication and manipulation. The Keepers manipulate things, but do not communicate with anyone, almost like bees. Unless you are directly addressing them, Hanars and Elcor appear to be animals. I realize that it could just be graphic limitations, but they just stand around and walk around with no visible means of manipulating objects, which would be necessary for space faring races. Even I would be amazed that the creature I was looking at was sapient, even if I already knew better.

[Antivenger]

termokanden wrote...

How would you know an Alien (sentient) from an alien (non-sentient) animal?

Well I don't know. Could be she had the ability to learn about the few other sentient races in the Mass Effect universe? The player knows them all in the first half hour of playing or so. I'm sure Ash is clever enough to learn such things as well.

She does. She makes that comment only after exiting the Human embassy, essentially the first time she gets to take a good look and interect with aliens. You would know them by the first half hour by the fact that you could get a pointer that shows you who to interact with and you also have the CoDeX.

EDIT: Wait, I think I misunderstood you. Did you mean she could have learned about them beforehand? If so, then yeah I supposed she could have. Perhaps she just isn't interested? Maybe she's just not the type of person who would research that.

I do agree though that that particular statement was (racist/speciest/xenophobic, whatever you want to call it). Though the way I perceive it is her blurting out her thoughts without thinking it through. Not the most eloquent of people.

Modifié par Antivenger, 29 avril 2011 - 02:56 .

[termokanden]

Antivenger wrote...

termokanden wrote...

How would you know an Alien (sentient) from an alien (non-sentient) animal?

Well I don't know. Could be she had the ability to learn about the few other sentient races in the Mass Effect universe? The player knows them all in the first half hour of playing or so. I'm sure Ash is clever enough to learn such things as well.

She does. She makes that comment only after exiting the Human embassy, essentially the first time she gets to take a good look and interect with aliens. You would know them by the first half hour by the fact that you could get a pointer that shows you who to interact with and you also have the CoDeX.

Oh come on. She lives in this world that we as players are just visiting for the first time. She doesn't have a codex? I'm sure she has much more information than our codex can hold. It's very basic education that you really should have to function in the galactic community.

Maybe it's the first time she's on the Citadel, but there's no reason to think she wouldn't always be aware of what other races there are and what they look like.

For the record, I think it was meant in the innocent way that you suggest, but that's not what it sounds like. That's what makes it a very unfortunate remark.

[Antivenger]

Yeah, I think I misunderstood you on that one. Refer to the edit ^^

[GuardianAngel470]

Abispa wrote...

It is NOT racist for a soldier to question her commander for taking on alien crew members. While it seems that a Specter has the authority to deputize anyone s/he wants off the street, that is NOT even REMOTELY usual behavior for a commander of a military vessel outside of the occasional television show where Jethro can simply transfer Israeli secret agents and White House Secret Service personnel into NCIS because they're good looking.

If I'm serving on a Navy vessel and my commander said, "Hey, we're on an important mission, and I just happened to bump into this bad-ass mercenary, this computer geek, this security guard with a chip on his shoulder, and this cute bookworm whose mom is working with that madman we're chasing. They all seem pretty good at their jobs, though, so I'm making them part of the crew!" Now, being an American serviceman, if all the people s/he brought on unilaterally were Mexicans, Canadians, Arabs, Mormons, college students, etc., I would probably take my commander aside and say, "ARE YOU FRAKING NUTS!? WHAT MAKES YOU THINK WE CAN TRUST THESE MEXICANS/CANADIANS/ARABS/MORMONS/COLLEGE STUDENTS/ETC.!?" And if they were aliens, I would have said "aliens."

Ashley was far more reasonable expressing her concerns than I would have been.

And her "I can't tell the aliens from the animals" was not diplomatic, but understandable. Although it is a human centric way of looking at things, two things that express intelligence to humans are communication and manipulation. The Keepers manipulate things, but do not communicate with anyone, almost like bees. Unless you are directly addressing them, Hanars and Elcor appear to be animals. I realize that it could just be graphic limitations, but they just stand around and walk around with no visible means of manipulating objects, which would be necessary for space faring races. Even I would be amazed that the creature I was looking at was sapient, even if I already knew better.

Who exactly are you arguing against? Two people in this thread said that she was racist and one of them has since changed his stance.

Also, what's with the Mormons comment? Mexicans, Canadians, Arabs, and College students sort of make sense though in each case there would be circumstances where them being on board would be appropriate but, just a fun fact about warships for those that don't know, an engineer that tends to the deasel or nuclear powerplants of a warship can be prosecuted for looking at some of the consoles in the control center. There is top secret tech on a warship that people who are active members of the navy are not allowed to see.

Now why is this relevant? Because it's evidence that real life military traditions, protocols, and procedures are hardly ever the same as that depicted in the ME universe so making any sort of comparison is completely pointless.

[Dean_the_Young]

termokanden wrote...


Oh come on. She lives in this world that we as players are just visiting for the first time. She doesn't have a codex? I'm sure she has much more information than our codex can hold. It's very basic education that you really should have to function in the galactic community.

Maybe it's the first time she's on the Citadel, but there's no reason to think she wouldn't always be aware of what other races there are and what they look like.

In terms of lore, the Citadel is far more diverse than we ever see in the game: there are hundreds, if not thousands, of species to be seen, and not all are going to be the big-three. Given that the line is bugged and is intended to trigger around keepers, a very, very insignificant race as far as the galaxy is concerned, you're demanding an unrealistic standard which doesn't even stand in far more narrow contexts.

To put it in a frame of reference for you: you might be aware of the general outlines of plants and animals, but how well versed would you be at distinguishing types of plants and types of animals if you were taken from modern suburbia/cityville and dropped in Tasmania? If the difference between 'dog' and 'cat' were important, what would you think if you saw 'Tasmanian devil', or 'platypus'?

The Mass Effect universe, and the Citadel of lore, isn't just filled with sentient aliens. It's filled with alien animals as well, and far too many to expect even exposed people to recognize the differences on sight. How could you know the Gas Bags of edenprime were stupid, but the Hanar were smart, if you didn't see or have ever dealt with one ahead of time?

[Dean_the_Young]

termokanden wrote...

Again, you don't need to explain how it works. The fact of the matter is that she has previously expressed very openly that she doesn't trust your alien crewmembers,

But not because they're not humans.

and she has made the aliens and animals remark as well (and I certainly don't buy your excuse for it).

You also have an unreasonable standard of expectations.

When she uses a rhetorical device saying she doesn't like aliens much, it is quite easy to take it literally.

While it's true that you can use such a rhetorical device without actually being serious about the first part, it's extremely unfortunate for Ash of all people to be using it, considering previous remarks and her attitude. It makes it too easy to take it literally. That's all I'm saying.

It's also quite easy to take a lot of things out of context or exagerate them. That doesn't mean that doing so is correct.

If other people can easily be misled... than they easily mislead themselves.

Saying that another race is generally selfish and doesn't really mind sacrificing humanity, doesn't that imply moral inferiority? I think it does. At least it's a very clear "it's us versus them" mentality.

It would only imply inferiority if you assume that Humans aren't the same. Since, in that very same conversation, Ashley repeatedly draws the similarities between Alien perspective and a human one, and makes no insinuation or suggestion that humanity is more virtuous then them.

'Us versus them' mentality is a recognition of differences. It's not even 'versus', as she explains. It's no more racist than religion is inherently racist.