388 réponses à ce sujet

[termokanden]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

In terms of lore, the Citadel is far more diverse than we ever see in the game: there are hundreds, if not thousands, of species to be seen, and not all are going to be the big-three. Given that the line is bugged and is intended to trigger around keepers, a very, very insignificant race as far as the galaxy is concerned, you're demanding an unrealistic standard which doesn't even stand in far more narrow contexts.

But how many *sentient* species are there in the ME universe. Is that even clear? I got the impression that there are only a few.

It's true that the Citadel we see is of course only the ingame representation. But it still matters what kind of an impression you get when you play the game. You can't be surprised that some people think it sounds racist. I think it does, even if she isn't meant to be a racist. You shouldn't have to speculate as to how it might make sense anyway because of what we're not seeing and how there MIGHT be other sentient species that we don't know about.

The Mass Effect universe, and the Citadel of lore, isn't just filled with sentient aliens. It's filled with alien animals as well, and far too many to expect even exposed people to recognize the differences on sight. How could you know the Gas Bags of edenprime were stupid, but the Hanar were smart, if you didn't see or have ever dealt with one ahead of time?

Basic education that everyone should have. Unless there are many sentient species we don't know about.

Modifié par termokanden, 29 avril 2011 - 03:32 .

[Dean_the_Young]

termokanden wrote...

But how many *sentient* species are there in the ME universe. Is that even clear? I got the impression that there are only a few.


Basic education that everyone should have. Unless there are many sentient species we don't know about.

Hundreds of them. The Turians alone have conquered and assimilated dozens and use them as combat auxilleraries.

[termokanden]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

But not because they're not humans.

That's what it sounded like though. If you're again arguing that it's because aliens belong to different nations as well, that is not made clear at all. She says she doesn't like aliens having access to the technology. That's what we have to work with. What you're trying to do is put some extra meaning into it that we don't even know if there ever was.

I'm just talking about the actual comments and what they sound like. It's a thread about why people might dislike Ashley. I can obviously not prove that she is a racist nor would I even want to do such a thing.

It's also quite easy to take a lot of things out of context or exagerate them. That doesn't mean that doing so is correct.

Well we'll have to disagree on whether it's an unfortunate remark or not. To me it sounds quite unfortunate given what she has said previously. It doesn't necessarily make her a racist, but it makes her sound like one. I don't really think I'm taking it too far here.

It would only imply inferiority if you assume that Humans aren't the same. Since, in that very same conversation, Ashley repeatedly draws the similarities between Alien perspective and a human one, and makes no insinuation or suggestion that humanity is more virtuous then them.

Sacrificing humans in the same way a human would sacrifice a dog to survive does sound a bit extreme actually, considering most humans would not consider a dog a person. I understand the point she's trying to make, but again what it sounds like is that she's saying aliens don't consider humanity to be worth much at all.

I can't know if she thinks humanity should do the same with the alien races as that is never mentioned in the game.

'Us versus them' mentality is a recognition of differences. It's not even 'versus', as she explains.

It's not really racism, but it does nothing to promote any kind of mutual understanding and cooperation. In fact I think she shows an interest in avoiding such things.

If you put all those things together, you get a picture of a person that can easily be interpreted as racist, even if it's not true. This is why I consider her remarks unfortunate.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

termokanden wrote...

But how many *sentient* species are there in the ME universe. Is that even clear? I got the impression that there are only a few.


Basic education that everyone should have. Unless there are many sentient species we don't know about.

Hundreds of them. The Turians alone have conquered and assimilated dozens and use them as combat auxilleraries.

I still can't believe you wouldn't be prepared for what you'll see in the galaxy. And it STILL doesn't make the comment sound any less unfortunate. As I said earlier, you can't expect players to speculate too much about things that aren't actually in the game. But it makes it easier for you to argue that that I'm wrong because there's always some unseen and unknowable explanation for everything.

Modifié par termokanden, 29 avril 2011 - 03:54 .

[Abispa]

@ GuardianAngel470 -- The "Mormon" comment came out of my own personal experience. A ship I was assigned to picked up a dozen Mormon missionaries we saved from a massive snowstorm in Canada over a decade ago, and two seamen and I confronted our commander for being lax on security and allowing them free reign to most of the ship. We complained about "the Mormons" because it was how they identified themselves and I admit in part to our own laziness in descriptions, even though we did have three crewmembers who were Mormon.

While I NEVER expect fictional stories to give perfect depictions of naval life, ME does appear to ATTEMPT to have starship based on recognized naval tradition.

[GuardianAngel470]

Abispa wrote...

@ GuardianAngel470 -- The "Mormon" comment came out of my own personal experience. A ship I was assigned to picked up a dozen Mormon missionaries we saved from a massive snowstorm in Canada over a decade ago, and two seamen and I confronted our commander for being lax on security and allowing them free reign to most of the ship. We complained about "the Mormons" because it was how they identified themselves and I admit in part to our own laziness in descriptions, even though we did have three crewmembers who were Mormon.

While I NEVER expect fictional stories to give perfect depictions of naval life, ME does appear to ATTEMPT to have starship based on recognized naval tradition.

Well I wasn't there so I can't really judge your stance. Sounds fishy to me but oh well.

And yeah, they do attempt to but they are so far off from reality that comparisons regarding security especially are pretty much null. I mean every important console is just hanging out there along the only paths to the airlock where anyone trying to leave would be able to see what was going on.

[Dean_the_Young]

termokanden wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

But not because they're not humans.

That's what it sounded like though. If you're again arguing that it's because aliens belong to different nations as well, that is not made clear at all. She says she doesn't like aliens having access to the technology. That's what we have to work with. What you're trying to do is put some extra meaning into it that we don't even know if there ever was.

I'm just talking about the actual comments and what they sound like. It's a thread about why people might dislike Ashley. I can obviously not prove that she is a racist nor would I even want to do such a thing.

All the aliens always have belonged to different nations. It's the entire context of the universe. Just like when Shepard refers to 'the Council', Shepard is refering to the Asari, Turian, and Salarian joint government body.

If you ignore context, not only the surrounding political context but that of the entire conversation, you're deliberatly schewing meaning to fit what you want to see.

Sacrificing humans in the same way a human would sacrifice a dog to survive does sound a bit extreme actually, considering most humans would not consider a dog a person. I understand the point she's trying to make, but again what it sounds like is that she's saying aliens don't consider humanity to be worth much at all.

I can't know if she thinks humanity should do the same with the alien races as that is never mentioned in the game.

Most people do not consider dogs equal to humans. People who do are in a distinct historical and cultural minority.

What she's saying, and resays, is that it isn't that while the Council isn't malevolent, it's not going to put Human interests and safety before its own. This doesn't mean that Aliens don't value humanity. This doesn't imply that they hate humanity. All it means is that, in a choice between themselves and us in the face of a greater danger, they will choose themselves. Which is why she says, in that conversation, that while she isn't against cooperation, the Alliance should be ready and prepared to stand on it own should it be abandoned. Not because aliens are aliens. But because groups are self-interested, and should recognize that other groups are self-interested as well.

And that's it. She isn't advocating sacrificing the Council on principal. She isn't saying we should hate the aliens. She isn't saying humans are any better. All connotations of racism are being read into it.

It's not really racism, but it does nothing to promote any kind of mutual understanding and cooperation. In fact I think she shows an interest in avoiding such things.

She specifically denies that and explains her reasoning what that is not so.

I still can't believe you wouldn't be prepared for what you'll see in the galaxy.

That alien animals (like, say, the the Keepers) can be indistinguishable from aliens that in no way look human or even humanoid? (Hanar, or Rachni.)

There is no 'this is a blatant cue of sentience' trait that all sentient species have that no animal species have.

And it STILL doesn't make the comment sound any less unfortunate. As I said earlier, you can't expect players to speculate too much about things that aren't actually in the game. But it makes it easier for you to argue that that I'm wrong because there's always some unseen and unknowable explanation for everything.

It is in the game: in the codex entries and more.It was also supposed to specificaly trigger with the Keepers, which very much are not sentient aliens as we understand them.

If you neglect to read the codex that are constantly added to Shepard's access, complete with 'codex added' markers on the screen... I'm sorry, the irony of you lambasting a character for not reading a codex is just getting to me now.

[Abispa]

@ Dean_the_Young -- I readily admit that I cannot make it through all the codex without wanting go gouge out my eyes, so you are my codex Cliff Notes.

[termokanden]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

All the aliens always have belonged to different nations. It's the entire context of the universe. Just like when Shepard refers to 'the Council', Shepard is refering to the Asari, Turian, and Salarian joint government body.

If you ignore context, not only the surrounding political context but that of the entire conversation, you're deliberatly schewing meaning to fit what you want to see.

The fact of the matter is that Ashley does not trust them because they are aliens. You can't argue that isn't true, it's what she says.

You can talk about the background for this and you might be right, but again we're talking about reasons why she could be seen as racist. And you have to take this together with her other statements and views.

And that's it. She isn't advocating sacrificing the Council on principal. She isn't saying we should hate the aliens. She isn't saying humans are any better. All connotations of racism are being read into it.

Which is why I stated specifically in my previous post that it isn't racism. It's an "us versus them" attitude, or we can removed the "versus" if you want. She approaches the situation with (perhaps understandable) distrust. Even if you think that's fair, let's add this to her views and feelings about aliens.

She specifically denies that and explains her reasoning what that is not so.

She doesn't like having alien races on the Normandy. The Council sponsored it, and the turians helped design it, and she complains the minute there are aliens on the ship. I think that shows a reasonable cautiousness taken a bit too far and an unwillingness to cooperate. Thanks for the money and the help building the ship, now get lost before you steal our secrets!

There is no 'this is a blatant cue of sentience' trait that all sentient species have that no animal species have.

You're asking too much of the player if you think we should take a hundred other sentient species out of our imagination and put them on the Citadel just so Ashley's remark doesn't sound racist.

Attacking my apparent inability to read codex entries and follow the notifications on my screen when they appear do not actually help you prove anything.

It's clear that the presentation isn't ever going to be perfect, and you have to imagine some things. But on the other hand you have to at least push the player in the right direction. You see Ashley in a very neat an ordered part of the Citadel complaining about the animals and the aliens. There isn't a single animal there!

Are animals even allowed on the Presidium?

Now let's look at what we have. Ashley doesn't trust your alien squadmates, she doesn't place a lot of trust in the cooperation between the species, she says she can't tell the aliens from the animals, and she says she doesn't like aliens much. You can attack the individual points and I'd agree with some of what you say, but can you really be surprised of someone might think she's a tad racist?

I think this is a valid point. I'm not an "Ashley hater" as I am probably being labeled right now. I'm just trying to argue that it's not so far-fetched to at least consider if there is a bit of racism in her or not. When you express distrust towards other races and make more than one comment that can easily be interpreted as racist, of course people start to wonder. That doesn't mean she IS a racist, but I certainly can see why people would get that idea.

Our discussion is sadly becoming a bit unproductive.

[Dean_the_Young]

termokanden wrote...


The fact of the matter is that Ashley does not trust them because they are aliens. You can't argue that isn't true, it's what she says.

No, it isn't. She says she doesn't trust the aliens. Why she doesn't trust the aliens is explained in completely non-racist terms: it's not 'because they are aliens', but because they risk Alliance secrets.

You can talk about the background for this and you might be right, but again we're talking about reasons why she could be seen as racist. And you have to take this together with her other statements and views.

Which, also, do not imply racism beyond what is projected upon them by those wishing to see it.

Which is why I stated specifically in my previous post that it isn't racism. It's an "us versus them" attitude, or we can removed the "versus" if you want. She approaches the situation with (perhaps understandable) distrust. Even if you think that's fair, let's add this to her views and feelings about aliens.

Why should we, when it applies just as much to humans? She's an equal-opportunity skeptic, and to portray her skepticism as distintly anti-alien isn't merely dishonest, it's wrong.

She doesn't like having alien races on the Normandy. The Council sponsored it, and the turians helped design it, and she complains the minute there are aliens on the ship. I think that shows a reasonable cautiousness taken a bit too far and an unwillingness to cooperate. Thanks for the money and the help building the ship, now get lost before you steal our secrets!

You, literally, picked up two/three aliens, completely unvetted by the Alliance, in the space of an hour, and then gave them full access to top secret technology. Since when is being completely comfortable with state secrets being exposed the standard of willing cooperation? Neither Wrex, Tali, or Garrus are representatives of any alien government, they're strangers and non-affiliated. How is this unreasonable caution, and how is this an unwillingness to cooperate with other governments?

You're asking too much of the player if you think we should take a hundred other sentient species out of our imagination and put them on the Citadel just so Ashley's remark doesn't sound racist.

Not at all: all we're asking is to recognize that alien (sentients) and alien (animals) are not apparent on sight: Hanar look like Jellyfish but are intelligent, while Varen look like dogs but aren't. 

Attacking my apparent inability to read codex entries and follow the notifications on my screen when they appear do not actually help you prove anything.

'Inability'? I wasn't aware you were hobbled in any respect. Since the Codex's are both audio and visual, I can certainly hold you as accountable to 'go read a codex to understand the universe' as you hold Ashley.

It's clear that the presentation isn't ever going to be perfect, and you have to imagine some things. But on the other hand you have to at least push the player in the right direction. You see Ashley in a very neat an ordered part of the Citadel complaining about the animals and the aliens. There isn't a single animal there!

Keepers? Which the line was supposed to be triggered by?

Now let's look at what we have. Ashley doesn't trust your alien squadmates, she doesn't place a lot of trust in the cooperation between the species, she says she can't tell the aliens from the animals, and she says she doesn't like aliens much. You can attack the individual points and I'd agree with some of what you say, but can you really be surprised of someone might think she's a tad racist?

Yes. A lack of critical thinking takes me by surprise quite often.

Our discussion is sadly becoming a bit unproductive.

Indeed.

[termokanden]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Indeed.

Yes. Your tone is extremely condescending, and we keep arguing back and forth about the same things.

I think I have a valid point, and I could make another list of replies. But you're not going to agree. And I imagine I won't agree with your next replies either.

[Alamar2078]

GodWood wrote...

I think it's more likely people just fail to understand her dog/bear analogy.

She must be a cat person ... I like my dog(s) and would certainly see what I could do to get the bear to decide to be elsewhere ....

[Faerlyte]

I don't like Ashley because she's a suspicious, mistrusting individual that calls herself a realist in explanation for her reasoning. I am a realist, but I don't go around mistrusting people because they're not in the military, they're from another country or they're another species. That is the fundamental difference between me and Ashley, and also why I wouldn't do well in the military. I'd rather be burned trusting someone who failed that trust than to mistrust people wrongly. If I get burned I get burned - their loss really because if I did right by them then that's the best I could do and I'm happy with that, but I don't care if your in the United States army or if you're from Russia, the Middle East, or another planet - I'll treat all of them with the same level of courtesy and consideration.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you - I basically live by that motto.

For this reason Ashley's argument or whatever you want to call it "No matter how much you love your dog, it's not human" is flawed, no matter how you look at it. Aside from the fact that it's an horrible analogy to make and very insulting to boot, to everyone involved, it's just plain wrong. People can be scumbags, there's no question about that. They come in human shape just as well as they might turian, krogan, asari, quarian - you get the idea. How you conduct yourself is entirely up to you though.

I wouldn't trust my officers any more than I would my alien allies, because they're all just people in the end, and people are flawed. Just because you wear a uniform doesn't make you a good person or a loyal individual with your best interest at heart. I care about people, not uniforms, not human or alien or animal. That reminds me - I wouldn't be caught dead saying something like "I can't tell the animals from the aliens'. It's just a classless thing to say. The only purpose of saying it is to be insulting because even if you really CAN'T tell the difference, you wouldn't say it like that if you actually meant well.

I've heard many telling cues from the racist in denial over the years, the most popular being, "I'm not a racist, but...". That's generally what people say when they're about to say something racist so...why are you saying it then, if you're not racist? Now "It's not racist, not really" is in the same territory of 'quantifying' something you said as not racist when you know that it is. If it wasn't racist, why do you feel it is necessary to defend yourself?

The bottome line to me is, Ashley is just the big B. I'm a strong advocate of 'Walk softly and carry a big stick'. Ashley does not walk softly. She is meant to be a strong female character, but she is trying too hard to make people see that she kicks ass and she's so tough. I support strong female characters that are kind, unassuming people who don't boast about kicking ass and don't even necessarily want to, but they become a force to be reckoned with when the situation calls for it. Tali, for example, is much closer to this. She's a sweetheart, but she can take care of herself and she doesn't make a big deal about it. I appreciate that.

Lastly...there is one line that I got recently while playing that I'd never encountered before and it really took my by surprise. I didn't like Ashley much to begin with, but this really threw me for a loop. It was in the discussion about Liara and how Ashley didn't trust her. First off, Ashley states that she doesn't trust Liara and if you say that you do, Ashley goes on to say that Liara was probably really bad at lying anyway. So basically she doesn't trust Liara, and yet she doesn't think she can lie either, so what exactly doesn't she trust? That was quite the 180 degree change in direction, but alright.

Ashley then goes on to say something to the effect of, "I could ask her about her sex life. That would probably be enlightening." The way in which this line was delivered was not friendly.  It was meant to be mean. 'I don't trust you so I'm going to find out all your secrets for my Commander'. I had a hard time finding the joke in it. "You're no fun Commander" didn't sound very playful either. I was really surprised by this dialog arc and it really didn't improve my opinion of Ashley's character.

Modifié par Faerlyte, 29 avril 2011 - 09:03 .

[BlackEssence]

I have to point out, since no one else, from what I have seen has brought it up, that not only did the conversation with Ashley makes me dislike her like no other, but also because of her unwarranted responses to the squade mates, particularly Liara, in between missions. Don't get me started...

I wanted my Shepard to tell her so bad: "Look, Ashley. I brought your A** on this ship because I felt bad for you and your situation with your crew (and like someone pointed out, but didn't realize.) and gave you full access to the ship as well as the rest of them. But, that sympathy can go out the window just as fast as I picked you up if you disrespect another one of your squad mates again."

Gosh, I can't stand her....

[Captain_Obvious]

Faerlyte wrote...

The bottome line to me is, Ashley is just the big B. I'm a strong advocate of 'Walk softly and carry a big stick'. Ashley does not walk softly. She is meant to be a strong female character, but she is trying too hard to make people see that she kicks ass and she's so tough.

Ashley then goes on to say something to the effect of, "I could ask her about her sex life. That would probably be enlightening." The way in which this line was delivered was not friendly.  It was meant to be mean. 'I don't trust you so I'm going to find out all your secrets for my Commander'. I had a hard time finding the joke in it. "You're no fun Commander" didn't sound very playful either. I was really surprised by this dialog arc and it really didn't improve my opinion of Ashley's character.

QFT.  Ash starts off as a strong woman, willing to kick butt and take names.  Liara comes on board, and Ash changes from a warrior-in-training to a stereotypical jealous girlfriend, gossiping and backbiting.  Instant repulsion for my M!Shep.  The conversation above is just about as unkind and malicious as a jealous girlfriend can get.  I found it truly dissappoining in a strong female character.  I let Ash live once to get the squadmate acheivement in ME1, but Ashley will never live past Virmire in any of my playthroughs again.  IMO, she's not worth saving. 

[AlexMBrennan]

"I could ask her about her sex life. That would probably be enlightening." The way in which this line was delivered was not friendly. It was meant to be mean

Ash took Shepard's reply ("I don't think she lies very often") and turned that into a teasing comeback if Shepard showed interest in Liara...

IMO, she's not worth saving.

I'm sure that you didn't mean to imply that you wouldn't save her even if you could (in addition to saving Kaidan) just because she's a bit petty and jealous.

[PMC65]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Alamar2078 wrote...

She must be a cat person ... I like my dog(s) and would certainly see what I could do to get the bear to decide to be elsewhere ....

You'd die for a dog?

If a bear was headed my way I would throw my 13-year-old nephew at it ...

I can't get over how people didn't understand that the "dog" in her example was humans. My 13-year-old nephew, the one now running from the bear, even understood what she meant. 

[termokanden]

Saphra Deden wrote...

termokanden wrote...

That's what it sounded like though.

Only if you completely lack the ability to note tone of voice. She doesn't sound disgusted or offended when she says it. On the contrary she sounds surprised and wonderous.

Grasping at straws...

[V-rex]

My honest answer to this whole thread?

I couldn't care less what the Ashley haters think



Haters gonna hate

Though I will just add something I said once before:

"I like Ashley for her good traits and love her for her flaws. In a gaming world where every female character is either a sexual fantasy or an idealized nerd girlfriend, Ashley was a daring representation of a character who wasn't totally agreeable, but also not totally hateful either. She's very bold, brave and beautiful and has a noteworthy degree of compassion within all that. But she's also quick to anger, has a capacity to say the wrong thing and can often be quite stubborn.

Ashley is, in the perfect sense a believable and flawed character. All the problems with her, like stubborness, jealousy, aggression, feelings of inadequecy and prejudices are all very much real human characteristics that we see every day. Sure they aren't nice characteristics or ones that we like especially, but they also undeniably exist.
Plus these problems are balanced by Ashley's positive traits, she's got a great sense of humor, she's very tactical on the battle field, she's very brave and has a lot of heart and spirit and demonstrates that quite a few times and she's not above demonstrating a compassionate side towards people who have experienced loss. She also was clearly a loving daughter and devoted sister.
Ashley is a real human character with depth and flaws, and as in life while there is bad, there is also good. You have to take the bad with the good. No, Ashley is not perfect. But she's not as bad as people say she is either.

Ashley was a case of a person actually feeling like a person. Having to come to terms with both the positive qualities and the negative qualities as well. And if you take the right conversation wheel you'll even watch her grow as a character and in one great dialogue scene, admit that she's wrong about certain things and subsequently changing her whole viewpoint on the world as a result.

Honestly I'd rather have that then another giggly bubbly exciteable geek girlfriend with large breasts and a skinny waist who is less a character and more a legitimized wishlist of all the qualities nerds want in a girlfriend but without any of the negativity associated with it and of whom's unquestioning adoration of you comes across as more annoying than cute.*

It's funny really, we demand deep, humanized and flawed characters in our games that feel real and then when we actually get characters with flaws we instantly dislike them, complain that they are far worse than they actually are and then run off back to our two dimensional stereotypes."

So yeah, that's my view of this whole thing.

*No, I am not referencing Tali or Liara or any other specific character in this post. I am not intending to troll or offend, this is just a general thing I've noticed from playing lots of games.

EDIT: Also a distinction:
When I say 'Ashley hater' I do not mean a person who simply dislikes Ashley because she isn't the kind of character they usually like or because they find her a little abraisive. No when I say 'hater' I mean the angry malformed inbred troll spawn that can't spell that is always responding on youtube comments in angrily typed letters about how she is 'RACIST' or 'RELIGOS' or 'BICH' etc.
So if you are of the group who merely dislike Ashley for personal reasons and not immature hatred, take no disrespect from the above picture statement.

Modifié par V-rex, 30 avril 2011 - 09:23 .

[TobiTobsen]

It irritates me that so many people complain about Ash being a racist/xenophobe and completly ignore Navigator Pressly. He was way more into the whole "Aliens on my ship? HELLO NO!" thing than Ash.

[termokanden]

That is also what I believe V-rex.

I was arguing that it's easy to get the impression that she's a racist because of her comments. We may disagree on that, but in any case it certainly doesn't mean I'm an "Ashley hater".

When a discussion like this is about a popular character, it tends to become very polarized. It's easy to get labeled as a hater if you don't have a 100% positive opinion, but I can see your definition is a bit better.

TobiTobsen: This isn't a thread about Pressly, so I don't see how it's relevant. By the way, he completely changes over the years, as is evident in the mission to collect dog tags from crew members.

Modifié par termokanden, 30 avril 2011 - 09:26 .

[V-rex]

termokanden wrote...

That is also what I believe V-rex.

I was arguing that it's easy to get the impression that she's a racist because of her comments. We may disagree on that, but in any case it certainly doesn't mean I'm an "Ashley hater".

When a discussion like this is about a popular character, it tends to become very polarized.

Thanks for being respectfu. I mightn't always agree with you but having the decency to be polite about it is always good.

FYI: When I say 'haters' I don't mean you. You seem to be of the group who can actually formulate an opinion and use correct spelling and punctuation and deliver it in a respectful light.
When I say 'haters' I mean you know.... those people. The hellish troll spawn doomed to haunt youtube comment pages the world over.

Modifié par V-rex, 30 avril 2011 - 09:26 .

[TobiTobsen]

termokanden wrote...

TobiTobsen: This isn't a thread about Pressly, so I don't see how it's relevant. By the way, he completely changes over the years, as is evident in the mission to collect dog tags from crew members.

I know that. It was more a thought about the "Why I think people hate Ashley Williams" thread, that I wanted to share with my fellow Ash fans