113 réponses à ce sujet

[Bratinov]

IanPolaris wrote...

Bratinov wrote...

Complete chantry domination?

You jest but that's exactly what I think the Seekers are trying to preserve. The Seekers aren't dumb (normally....just very inattentive apparently when it came to Kirkwall). If the mage revolt gains any traction at all, the secular rulers will likely use it to break away from the Chantry (like Fereldan already is) and/or the Qunari will conquer everyone because of lack of battlemagic.

The Seekers want to avoid this while keeping the Chantry in change. I expect it will be an exercise in futility....and the new Lelianna is making me like Lelianna in general less and less.

-Polaris

Apparently they are the Divine's personal agents, so I guess his will is their own.
Of course the Chantry would want to preserve its influence and no, the Fereldan circle did not break away from chantry rule before the events in DA2, they declined the royal request and the monarch wouldn't dare defy them.
I was shocked to find Leliana is one of them.
I suspect the whole circle system would have to change if they want their influence back.

Modifié par Bratinov, 28 avril 2011 - 11:21 .

[LobselVith8]

I wonder if we'll see the Seekers in an expansion. Assuming that the developers decide to address Hawke after the three year period (where he's either been wandering for three years or left the office of Viscount), it could address precisely what Cassandra or Leliana is offering Hawke for support (I suppose it's moreso if he sided with the mages).

[Ulicus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I wonder if we'll see the Seekers in an expansion. Assuming that the developers decide to address Hawke after the three year period (where he's either been wandering for three years or left the office of Viscount), it could address precisely what Cassandra or Leliana is offering Hawke for support (I suppose it's moreso if he sided with the mages).

I'm wondering if they're not setting up a Seeker protagonist for a future game. Though I suppose that would require the existence of mage Seekers -- since there's no way they'd prevent people playing as magic users -- and I'm not sure if that would be sensical. 

Depends upon the criteria for recruitment, I guess.

I'm sort of looking at them -- in my ignorance -- as being akin to the 40K Inquistion at the moment, though. Complete with different factions and the like.

Modifié par Ulicus, 29 avril 2011 - 12:29 .

[LobselVith8]

Ulicus wrote...

I'm wondering if they're not setting up a Seeker protagonist for a future game. Though I suppose that would require the existence of mage Seekers -- since there's no way they'd prevent people playing as magic users -- and I'm not sure if that would be sensical. 

I've heard others say the same, but I don't think people who are anti-Chantry or anti-templar are going to want to be a member of an organization they don't like.

[Ulicus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Ulicus wrote...

I'm wondering if they're not setting up a Seeker protagonist for a future game. Though I suppose that would require the existence of mage Seekers -- since there's no way they'd prevent people playing as magic users -- and I'm not sure if that would be sensical. 

I've heard others say the same, but I don't think people who are anti-Chantry or anti-templar are going to want to be a member of an organization they don't like.

Well you'd obviously have the opportunity to be less-than-faithful to the organisation and "bring it down from the inside", or whathaveyou.

[frustratemyself]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Ulicus wrote...

I'm wondering if they're not setting up a Seeker protagonist for a future game. Though I suppose that would require the existence of mage Seekers -- since there's no way they'd prevent people playing as magic users -- and I'm not sure if that would be sensical. 

I've heard others say the same, but I don't think people who are anti-Chantry or anti-templar are going to want to be a member of an organization they don't like.

It happened in ME2 with Cerberus so you never know.

We'll probably see a lot more of the Seekers next game & probably Leliana too. I didn't play Leliana's Song so I don't know what it contributes to her background story but she's probably been involved with the Seekers since before DAO. Thinking this cause going back to DAO last night I noticed that her starting equipment includes an amulet called the Seekers Circle.

[Lewie]

The seekers are an arm of the divine apparently, or leliana is full of bull also. She did say the resolutionists are 'likely' behind kirkwalls unrest. A bit obscure considering thats the first time you encounter them, and the only time.

[LobselVith8]

frustratemyself wrote...

We'll probably see a lot more of the Seekers next game & probably Leliana too. I didn't play Leliana's Song so I don't know what it contributes to her background story but she's probably been involved with the Seekers since before DAO. Thinking this cause going back to DAO last night I noticed that her starting equipment includes an amulet called the Seekers Circle.

Leliana's Song basically revealed that Leliana lied to the Warden about her backstory, and established how she met the current Divine Justina V (who was Revered Mother Doretha at the time).

[Lewie]

Lelianas song was you playing her side of the story, when she spoke of how she was betrayed in Origins. She was imprisoned, and someone dropped a package through the ceiling with a knife and a lockpick.

[Ulicus]

louise101 wrote...

Lelianas song was you playing her side of the story, when she spoke of how she was betrayed in Origins. She was imprisoned, and someone dropped a package through the ceiling with a knife and a lockpick.

No, Lobsel is right. Leliana's Song doesn't match up with what she tells the Warden at all. For one thing, the story she relates to the Warden has her betrayed in Orlais and fleeing to Ferelden.

Though LS doesn't gel very well with her exchange with Majorlaine in DA:O, either...

That said, LS is framed as a story, so she could easily have changed some details for her non-Warden audience. For example, I don't think she actually confronted Majoraline until DA:O (otherwise why do the whole "Why did you betray me" thing all over again?) ... but she throws in that bit at the end to give the story some closure of its own.

I dunno. I was torn. On the one hand, I thought it was an awesome DLC. On the other, I'm a continuity slave.

Modifié par Ulicus, 29 avril 2011 - 01:56 .

[frustratemyself]

So Lel probably some creative license with her story, figures that she would.
If LS doesn't match up with what was already know continuity wise it would be ok if it was intentional and contributed to the larger world story. However continuity does seem to suffer at times with these games which is a shame.

[SirGladiator]

Yeah, they really need to do a better job with continuity, in a game like this where the story is so important it really needs to stay consistent at all times. I really like Leliana, she's still my favorite character after both games, she's so awesome. She clearly isn't anti-mage, she was very good friends with Wynne and openly flirting with Morrigan even though she diagreed with Morrigan's generally-evil outlook on things, she definitely likes mages just fine. No doubt she doesn't like the idea of mages taking over a town, nor does anybody who isn't a mage (or even many who were mages, most likely). Its her job to keep things from getting out of hand, something she did about as well as she could have given that she apparently couldn't actually force the old woman to leave. She warned her, it wasn't her fault she didn't listen.

In regard to Leliana's Song, I agree that the DLC was awesome, and it is also true there were clear inconsistencies. That was due to having different writers, apparently ones that didn't know how to read what was already written so as to keep things consistent. But aside from that it was awesome, as is Lelaiana. I would so love to have more of her in DA3, since Cassandra seems to work for her she should at least be around, even though obviously Cassandra will probably be the one on our team in DA3, not Leliana, I sure wouldn't mind the chance to romance Leliana again . I'd say Leliana, Bethany, and Sigrun (from DAA) are my favorite characters so far. Hopefully in DA3 we'll find out much more about the Seekers, and we'll find it out from Leliana!

[Crocodiles]

I wonder if Leliana was a seeker in origins, when you recruit her in origins she comes with an amulet called the seeker's circle.

[Bratinov]

Crocodiles wrote...

I wonder if Leliana was a seeker in origins, when you recruit her in origins she comes with an amulet called the seeker's circle.

Ain't that a kick in the head... i guess we underestimated her bard spying and manipulation skills, but I don't see any obvious decisions made due to her influence.

[SkittlesKat96]

Well the seekers are almost like the 'spectres' of the Chantry...or the 'black hand' or the shadowy spying part of the Chantry that keeps the Chantry in order and does everything behind the scenes.

Maybe different seekers have different motivations? Maybe they are all under one order or command from the head of the Chantry in Orlais?

I think Cassandra wants to stop the war between the mages and templars but the way she says it makes it sound as if there are others in the chantry that WANT war with the mages.

Maybe there are higher ups in the chantry that want some sort of exalted march or extermination/put down of magic because they think mages are becoming out of control?

Honestly I have no idea but I'm a little interested

EDIT: My theory at the moment is that they are like the spectres of the templars while at the same time also being like the black hand/spies of the chantry. Some seekers desire (I'm using Cassandra's words to make sense here lol) war with the mages but some like Cassandra just want the truth and want a peaceful resolution.

This makes sense that they would make another game or expansion involving all of this.

Modifié par SkittlesKat96, 29 avril 2011 - 07:41 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Leliana's song doesn't match up to what she told the Warden at all. But the basic gist of the story is the same. It seems more like a case of a random retcon, as if whoever wrote the DLC didn't know or didn't care about the story from DOA, than being presented as an act of deception on Leliana.

As far as the Seekers are concerned, we don't know what they want exactly, only that they have an interest in ending the war. it oculd be as simple as that. Peace is preferable to war.The Chantry and the templars are not one and the same and the Chantry's influence in nations in the world isn't what is being threatened, it's the rebellion by both the templars and the mages against their authority. Ferelden is not somehow free of the Chantry, but unlike Krikwall they don't have a direct influence on the throne, and never in DAO either.

I didn't download Sebastian's content but I did see Leliana's cameo online. I don't think she appeared to be anti mage. She was concerned about the potential havok that might be caused by the very real danger of a rebellion. Mages are too dangerous to be left unsupervised, so I think in theory I'd probably support templars. In practice though, it's doubtful. But realistically we don't know enough about the disposition of either the templars or the mages to make a realistic judgment about the current war. My guess would be that they'd both end up being largely villainous.

[IanPolaris]

Jedi,

When she says that Kirkwall must not fall to MAGIC and become another Imperium and that the Chantry *tolerated* mages that wanted to be free of Chantry control, that seemed pretty damned anti-mage to me and showed a very different personona than what we saw in Origins. Note the way she uses "Magic" as a curse word in her voice inflection. That IMHO is not an accident.

-Polaris

[man giraffedog000]

I've come to warn you about MAN-GIRAFFE-DOG!! It's the single greatest threat to humanity!! RUN AWAY!!



I'm still more Serial than ever guys.

[moilami]

I am anti-seeker. I frown all secret organisations except Bavarian Illuminati xD

+ thumbs up for Man-Giraffe-Dog.

[Sussurus]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Leliana's song doesn't match up to what she told the Warden at all. But the basic gist of the story is the same. It seems more like a case of a random retcon, as if whoever wrote the DLC didn't know or didn't care about the story from DOA, than being presented as an act of deception on Leliana.

As far as the Seekers are concerned, we don't know what they want exactly, only that they have an interest in ending the war. it oculd be as simple as that. Peace is preferable to war.The Chantry and the templars are not one and the same and the Chantry's influence in nations in the world isn't what is being threatened, it's the rebellion by both the templars and the mages against their authority. Ferelden is not somehow free of the Chantry, but unlike Krikwall they don't have a direct influence on the throne, and never in DAO either.

I didn't download Sebastian's content but I did see Leliana's cameo online. I don't think she appeared to be anti mage. She was concerned about the potential havok that might be caused by the very real danger of a rebellion. Mages are too dangerous to be left unsupervised, so I think in theory I'd probably support templars. In practice though, it's doubtful. But realistically we don't know enough about the disposition of either the templars or the mages to make a realistic judgment about the current war. My guess would be that they'd both end up being largely villainous.

I'm not getting the stop the war vibe at all tbh, at least not as a main cause with the mage vs templar thing.
That ship sailed long ago with the templars quiting and the mages revolting.

If you hear Varric and Cassandra talk, he says she quit the chantry to hunt mages.
She replies she has no interest in vengence or really the mages themselves.
They don't look like they're trying to stop something, they sound as if the want to prevent something.
That they need someone specific, someone fated like the hero or champion.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

IanPolaris wrote...

Jedi,

When she says that Kirkwall must not fall to MAGIC and become another Imperium and that the Chantry *tolerated* mages that wanted to be free of Chantry control, that seemed pretty damned anti-mage to me and showed a very different personona than what we saw in Origins. Note the way she uses "Magic" as a curse word in her voice inflection. That IMHO is not an accident.

-Polaris

Maybe if you of the opinion that being pro Chantry is inherently anti mage then, I can see why you'd consider her such. A mage rebellion is a very serious and a very dangerous prospect. I don't think that being worried about such an event makes her automatically anti mage, especially since she says that they attacked her based only on the knowledge that an agent of the Divine was coming. I don't remember her saying "magic" with a disgusted inflection in that scene either. I've only seen that scene on youtube but when she says she is worried about Krikwall falling, her tone seems very even.

Frankly it's Anders who disturbs me the most in that scene. The way he responds to her saying "If it falls to magic, none of us will be safe" with "None of you maybe" implies that the entire rest of the world can burn for all he cares, as long as mages are free of the Circle.

Sussurus wrote...

I'm not getting the stop the war vibe at all tbh, at least not as a main cause with the mage vs templar thing.
That ship sailed long ago with the templars quiting and the mages revolting.

If you hear Varric and Cassandra talk, he says she quit the chantry to hunt mages.
She replies she has no interest in vengence or really the mages themselves.
They don't look like they're trying to stop something, they sound as if the want to prevent something.
That they need someone specific, someone fated like the hero or champion.

It sounded to me like they wanted to prevent the war from getting hopelessly out of hand.

Looking back at the lines with Varric and Cassandra, it seems pretty clear to
me that she is interested in stopping the war. It also sounds like when
he said "I thought you decided to abandond the Chantry to hunt the mages" that he
was refering to the Templars. He couldn't have been talking about her
specifically, because he doesn't know her and the Seekers haven't
abandonded the Chantry. He also says it right after "In fact, haven't
the Templars rebelled aswell?" It was an awkward line, but that's the best explanation I can imagine for it.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 30 avril 2011 - 07:34 .

[IanPolaris]

Jedi,

She is grouping all mages and the desire for mages to be free of chantry domination as an AUTOMATIC concession that Kirkwall will become a Tevinter Imperium II. She even says as much. To my knowledge only the most radically anti-magic people even in the Chantry actually believe that, and Lelianna knows better from personal experience!

No, I despise the "new and improved" Lelianna. She is indeed both anti-magic and a chantry tool (and not in the good way).

-Polaris

[LobselVith8]

@ Jedi, Varric addresses that the templars rebelled when he mentions that the Chantry lost control of the Circles, and then addresses Cassandra when he says, "I thought you abandoned the Chantry to hunt the mages." It seems implied that the Seekers are with the Order of Templars in hunting down the mages who saw the deaths of the Circle mages at Kirkwall because of the act of an apostate and decided to fight for their freedom. Cassandra never disputes Varric's assertion, and her response is that not all of them desire war.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

IanPolaris wrote...

Jedi,

She is grouping all mages and the desire for mages to be free of chantry domination as an AUTOMATIC concession that Kirkwall will become a Tevinter Imperium II. She even says as much. To my knowledge only the most radically anti-magic people even in the Chantry actually believe that, and Lelianna knows better from personal experience!

No, I despise the "new and improved" Lelianna. She is indeed both anti-magic and a chantry tool (and not in the good way).

-Polaris

When does she state that? I must have missed that part.

[LobselVith8]

There are more than a few people who feel that Leliana came off as anti-mage in "Faith," and this was even addressed to David Gaider.