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[IanPolaris]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Jedi,

She is grouping all mages and the desire for mages to be free of chantry domination as an AUTOMATIC concession that Kirkwall will become a Tevinter Imperium II. She even says as much. To my knowledge only the most radically anti-magic people even in the Chantry actually believe that, and Lelianna knows better from personal experience!

No, I despise the "new and improved" Lelianna. She is indeed both anti-magic and a chantry tool (and not in the good way).

-Polaris

When does she state that? I must have missed that part.

You must have. She outright says that Kirkwall must not be permitted to fall to magic lest it become another Imperium.  That's virtually a direct quote and I invite you to look it up.  That puts ALL mages into the same moral catagory as Tevinter Magisters and that's pretty damn anti-mage...and Lelianna more than just about anyone else KNOWS better.

-Polaris

[Sussurus]

Don't forget it's been what 7 years after the warden.
Even if you ignore all the ret con that Bioware could pull on her.
She has been out in the world seeing things beyond the warden and Hawke.
I'm not saying you're wrong, just we don't know exactly how or why she is as she is.

"Evil twin" could be one shark they leap tbh, or brain washing, Fereldan plant...

Heck she either joins the chantry pre ret con, post DA:O.. and Oghrain says explicitly that the urn is magic due to Lyrium of magnitude that he's never felt before.

Or she becomes an agent under the king / queen / couple, in which case a plant in the Orlais order could have shifted her view to wider matters.

As a side note, I'm really enjoying everyones take on the seekers, I hope they prove to be a part of future content.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

IanPolaris wrote...

You must have. She outright says that Kirkwall must not be permitted to fall to magic lest it become another Imperium.  That's virtually a direct quote and I invite you to look it up.  That puts ALL mages into the same moral catagory as Tevinter Magisters and that's pretty damn anti-mage...and Lelianna more than just about anyone else KNOWS better.

-Polaris

I've watched Leliana's cameo several times. Unless you are refering to a different line, her exact words are "The whole world is watching Kirkwall. If it falls to magic, none of us are safe." There was no mention of the Tevinter Imperium. "Falls to magic" is a very vauge line, to jump to conclusion that she means there will be a new Imperium is a bit of a leap. I interpreted it more as if Kirkwall is overrun by a mage rebllion, which in turn causes a larger  rebellion around Thedas that destablizes the entire world, then the resulting chaos and destruction would be "the greatest threat to Thedas since the Qunari invaded" that she mentions.

[Lewie]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

You must have. She outright says that Kirkwall must not be permitted to fall to magic lest it become another Imperium.  That's virtually a direct quote and I invite you to look it up.  That puts ALL mages into the same moral catagory as Tevinter Magisters and that's pretty damn anti-mage...and Lelianna more than just about anyone else KNOWS better.

-Polaris

I've watched Leliana's cameo several times. Unless you are refering to a different line, her exact words are "The whole world is watching Kirkwall. If it falls to magic, none of us are safe." There was no mention of the Tevinter Imperium. "Falls to magic" is a very vauge line, to jump to conclusion that she means there will be a new Imperium is a bit of a leap. I interpreted it more as if Kirkwall is overrun by a mage rebllion, which in turn causes a larger  rebellion around Thedas that destablizes the entire world, then the resulting chaos and destruction would be "the greatest threat to Thedas since the Qunari invaded" that she mentions.

She also says the resolutionists have 'been tolerated' but now they have become violent. Another branch of mage rebellion from the circle, that makes 5 or 6 now? You kill blood mages and shades and they say before you fight 'The Divine fears us, and she should' and attack you because they think you are Leliana. This to me isn't a case of 'oh poor mages' its demons taking over mages, they want footholds and are getting them. I don't see mages as a threat at all, they simply have a gift that is exploited. I want to see good magic/mages winning over all this. Push comes to shove maybe mage and templar will have to fight together, a bigger threat may be simmering, who knows.

[IanPolaris]

Lelianna very specificially refers to the "Imperium" Watch it again.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

louise101 wrote...

She also says the resolutionists have 'been tolerated' but now they have become violent. Another branch of mage rebellion from the circle, that makes 5 or 6 now? You kill blood mages and shades and they say before you fight 'The Divine fears us, and she should' and attack you because they think you are Leliana. This to me isn't a case of 'oh poor mages' its demons taking over mages, they want footholds and are getting them. I don't see mages as a threat at all, they simply have a gift that is exploited. I want to see good magic/mages winning over all this. Push comes to shove maybe mage and templar will have to fight together, a bigger threat may be simmering, who knows.

(Sarc) And you don't think that Kirkwall is one giant Tevinter Blood-Alter where the Veil is so thin that Demons can give NON-Mages mage-like powers (see Lady Harriman) has anything to do with it?  This little tidbit is a crucial part of the backstory but the Devs delibeately hid it from us in obscure codex entries.

-Polaris

[LobselVith8]

louise101 wrote...

She also says the resolutionists have 'been tolerated' but now they have become violent.

What Leliana says is, "There have always been factions that support freedom from the Chantry and the abolition of the Circle. We have... tolerated them." Leliana addressed that she thinks that the Resolutionists are behind the unrest in Kirkwall. Leliana mentions that "Divine Justina takes the situation here very seriously. She believes it is the worst threat to Thedas since the Qunari invaded." She adds, "The whole world is watching Kirkwall. If it falls to magic, none of us are safe."

[Jedi Master of Orion]

IanPolaris wrote...

Lelianna very specificially refers to the "Imperium" Watch it again.

-Polaris

I looked for as many different versions of the scene as I could find. None of them mention the Imperium. Either we are talking about about different scenes or it's not in there. At least in any of the dialouge responses that the player took.

The scene word for word is as follows:

"Leliana: The Resolutionists, I should I have known they would be part of this. (If Isabella is there she will interupt and talk about their threesome)

Hawke: Are you sister Nightingale?

Leliana: I am. Or you may call me Leliana. The Divine sent me to investigate the possibility of a rebellion here in Kirkwall. I have some experience in unconventional situations.

Hawke: The Leliana?Who acompanied the Hero of Ferelden to slay the Archdemon?

Leliana: Ah, I see it will be harder to remain anonymous so near the Ferelden border. Yes I knew the Hero of Ferelden. [Comment about the Warden]. But I am working for the Divine now in Orlais. I had not thought to return to this part of Thedas.

Hawke: Who are the Resolutionists?

Leliana: An offshoot  of a fraternitiy within the Cirlce of Magi. There have always been factions that support freedom from the Chantry and the abolition of the Circle. We have tolerated them. But the Resolutionists have become violent.

Hawke: I appreciate you stepping in there/I hardly expected the Divine's secret agent to look like you.

Leliana: Of course, they mistook you for me, so they must know I am in Kirkwall./That is why I am effective. The Divine has long suspected that Krikwall's problems were spurred by an outside group.

Anders: Like any mage with a brain can't  come up with 'Let's rebel'?

Varric: To be fair blonde most of those 'rebellions' boil down to 'Lets feed ourselves to demons'. Outside help of the planning variety might be required.

Leliana: This attack proves she is right.

Hawke: Are you saying you set this whole thing up?

Leliana: I let word slip that an agent of the Divine was coming to investigate the mage troubles. It is how they chose to react that condemns them.

Hawke: It isn't really that bad/What will she plan to do?

Leliana: Divine Justinia takes the situation very seriously. She believes it is the worst threat to Thedas since the Qunari invaded.

Sebastian: A handful of apostates? How can that possibly-?

Leliana: The whole world is watching Kirkwall. If it falls to magic. None of us are safe.

Anders: None of you.

Leliana: Tell Elthina to leave. There is refuge for her at the Grand Cathedral in Orlais. She will not be safe here."

Unless she mentions the Imperium in the one dialogue option near the end when Hawke can say "It's time for a holy war" there was no mention of Tevinter in her statements.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 01 mai 2011 - 06:15 .

[IanPolaris]

You are only seeing one possible set of dialog options. Trust me, it's there.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  It's also besides the piont.  Even with the dialog options you've posted, Lelianna is clearly taking a hard-line anti-mage line that is radically inconsistant with her persona in DAO.  Many people have complained to DG about this, not just me.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 01 mai 2011 - 08:50 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

You mind telling me exactly which dialog option leads to it then? Because I saw most of them and there wasn't much difference.

It's not beside the point. Mages can be dangerous, particularly ones that have demonstrated to have been violent. The Resolutionists attacked her based only on the fact she was working for the Divine. Being worried about the dangers of a mage rebellion doesn't make one "anti mage."

[IanPolaris]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

You mind telling me exactly which dialog option leads to it then? Because I saw most of them and there wasn't much difference.

It's not beside the point. Mages can be dangerous, particularly ones that have demonstrated to have been violent. The Resolutionists attacked her based only on the fact she was working for the Divine. Being worried about the dangers of a mage rebellion doesn't make one "anti mage."

It is very much besides the point.  Lelianna states that Kirkwall can not fall to magic (and adds especially after what happened in Fereldan if the Mage's boon was granted).  How is that NOT anti-mage?  She isn't distinquishing rebellious mages from non-rebellious mages.  She is painting all mages in a universal black light and I am certain (I'll go through the dialog options again) that she does refer to the Imperium at least once.

As for mages can be dangerous....well so can anyone as Lelianna knows perfectly well.

Boo.  Hiss. Bioware.

-Polaris

[JoHnDoE14]

IanPolaris wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

You mind telling me exactly which dialog option leads to it then? Because I saw most of them and there wasn't much difference.

It's not beside the point. Mages can be dangerous, particularly ones that have demonstrated to have been violent. The Resolutionists attacked her based only on the fact she was working for the Divine. Being worried about the dangers of a mage rebellion doesn't make one "anti mage."

It is very much besides the point.  Lelianna states that Kirkwall can not fall to magic (and adds especially after what happened in Fereldan if the Mage's boon was granted).  How is that NOT anti-mage?  She isn't distinquishing rebellious mages from non-rebellious mages.  She is painting all mages in a universal black light and I am certain (I'll go through the dialog options again) that she does refer to the Imperium at least once.

As for mages can be dangerous....well so can anyone as Lelianna knows perfectly well.

Boo.  Hiss. Bioware.

-Polaris

She certainly says something about the imperium. Something like ''The divine can't afford Kirkwall become another Imperium'', but it may be dependant on dialogue choice.

[Mahtisonni]

Personally, I won't be bothering with DA:III if I'm going to be forced to play as a seeker.
Both my hawke and warden would rather die than kneel inside a chantry.

How the hell are they going to drag an open opposer of the chantry into their ranks and why would they even bother to do that?
Even if they imprison him, the moment my hawke/warden gets his murder knife back there will rain blood.

Even if there will be a new character it will just be like "WHO THE HELL LET THIS GUY JOIN?!?!?" when I publicly execute pretty much every chantry associated character in the game.

Modifié par Mahtisonni, 01 mai 2011 - 10:46 .

[Sussurus]

I've often wondered this from the very first game while playing years ago.

Did the "praise the maker." and "I'll kindly take a blessing." dialogue paths have any long term effect in game.
DA:2 there were not as many, but given it seems to be a recuring theme,.

How much could the response, pro vs anti maker have in effect on DA:3 if any.
Honestly I'd love if some background import infomation logged this, then had an effect in a future game.

Modifié par Sussurus, 01 mai 2011 - 11:54 .

[IanPolaris]

JoHnDoE14 wrote...

She certainly says something about the imperium. Something like ''The divine can't afford Kirkwall become another Imperium'', but it may be dependant on dialogue choice.

That is EXACTLY the line I remember.  Combine that with the line of "Kirkwall must not be allowed to fall to "magic"' and it's  clear that "Sister Nightengale" is equating all mages and all those that want mages to be free of the chantry with Tevinter Magisters and she knows that is a DAMNED LIE!

-Polaris

[Lewie]

IanPolaris wrote...

JoHnDoE14 wrote...

She certainly says something about the imperium. Something like ''The divine can't afford Kirkwall become another Imperium'', but it may be dependant on dialogue choice.

That is EXACTLY the line I remember.  Combine that with the line of "Kirkwall must not be allowed to fall to "magic"' and it's  clear that "Sister Nightengale" is equating all mages and all those that want mages to be free of the chantry with Tevinter Magisters and she knows that is a DAMNED LIE!

-Polaris

She said 'fall to magic', not 'fall to mages'. Demons use magic don't they?

She may have known more about the veil being thin, why the Starkhaven circle has fallen etc than we know. She knew Elthina wouldn't be safe, how? The same thing may have happened in Starkhaven, speculation of course but we just don't know.

[Herr Uhl]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Leliana: An offshoot  of a fraternitiy within the Cirlce of Magi. There have always been factions that support freedom from the Chantry and the abolition of the Circle. We have tolerated them. But the Resolutionists have become violent.

Is this where the "Leliana is a mage hater and the fraternities are a sham" comes from?

[Herr Uhl]

IanPolaris wrote...

JoHnDoE14 wrote...

She certainly says something about the imperium. Something like ''The divine can't afford Kirkwall become another Imperium'', but it may be dependant on dialogue choice.

That is EXACTLY the line I remember.  Combine that with the line of "Kirkwall must not be allowed to fall to "magic"' and it's  clear that "Sister Nightengale" is equating all mages and all those that want mages to be free of the chantry with Tevinter Magisters and she knows that is a DAMNED LIE!

-Polaris

An offshoot is likely to separate from the chantry, otherwise they wouldn't rebel, would they. That might be where the Imperium thing comes in. As it separated from the chantry.

[IanPolaris]

louise101 wrote...

She said 'fall to magic', not 'fall to mages'. Demons use magic don't they?

She may have known more about the veil being thin, why the Starkhaven circle has fallen etc than we know. She knew Elthina wouldn't be safe, how? The same thing may have happened in Starkhaven, speculation of course but we just don't know.

How could she know about the Veil being so thin as being the proximate cause when she (and the Seekers) didn't even know what a fruit-loop Meredith was?

The context is clear.  Lelianna is equating all mages with Tevinter Magisters.  She makes that very clear.  This is the 'new and improved' mage-hating Lelianna for DA2.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Herr Uhl wrote...

An offshoot is likely to separate from the chantry, otherwise they wouldn't rebel, would they. That might be where
the Imperium thing comes in. As it separated from the chantry.

Bolloxs.  You're reaching.  Everytime a person in Thedas says "Imperium" they mean the Tevinter Imperium.  There is no other Imperium.  What she says and the context is very clear.

-Polaris

[Lewie]

IanPolaris wrote...

louise101 wrote...

She said 'fall to magic', not 'fall to mages'. Demons use magic don't they?

She may have known more about the veil being thin, why the Starkhaven circle has fallen etc than we know. She knew Elthina wouldn't be safe, how? The same thing may have happened in Starkhaven, speculation of course but we just don't know.

How could she know about the Veil being so thin as being the proximate cause when she (and the Seekers) didn't even know what a fruit-loop Meredith was?

The context is clear.  Lelianna is equating all mages with Tevinter Magisters.  She makes that very clear.  This is the 'new and improved' mage-hating Lelianna for DA2.

-Polaris

If you want to be clear about context 'fall to magic' and 'fall to mages' can mean 2 very different things, don't prioritise text just to suit your own arguments. You know for sure that Leliana hates mages... seriously. Your everyone is anti-mage trolling is getting tiresome.

[Chuvvy]

IanPolaris wrote...

ddv.rsa wrote...

Lelianna is never explicitly anti-mage, you know.

Could have fooled me.  She does a very damned good impression of being very rapidly anti-mage when we see her as Sister Nightengale...and I'm far from the only one that's said so. [And very unlike DAO Lelianna]

-Polaris

Wonder what my mage warden did to ****** her off? She seemed completely fine with him being a bloodmage in DAO.

[TobiTobsen]

The "Faith" quest is Lelianas and DA2 Horizon.

Strange writing for established characters to further the plot.

[IanPolaris]

louise101 wrote...

If you want to be clear about context 'fall to magic' and 'fall to mages' can mean 2 very different things, don't prioritise text just to suit your own arguments. You know for sure that Leliana hates mages... seriously. Your everyone is anti-mage trolling is getting tiresome.

It's called common sense and listening to what is said in the context in which it is said.  Lelianna isn't concerned about a demon invasion (perhaps she should be given that Kirkwall is on a Hellmouth but she's not).  She is a talking about a militant off-shoot of the Libertarian Fraternaty that she flat out admits was a sham.

When she talks about Kirkwall falling "to magic" especially when she includes the line "especially after what happened in Fereldan' right afterwards (and only if the circle was emancipated), makes her context extremely clear.  She is saying "mages"=="magic"=="Tevinter Imperium".

That makes her an even more radical mage hater than even Cullen (who at least has a decent excuse for feeling as he does) and Lelianna KNOWS better having adventured with at least two mages (and perhaps even been a lover to a bloodmage).  This is a completely different person...or perhaps she was playing us all along which makes me like Leliana less and less.

-Polaris

[snfonseka]

They are equal to inquisitors in Warhammer 40000 universe.