55 réponses à ce sujet

[HSHAW]

What do you think is going to happen with Branka and her Golems if you let her have the Anvil?

[ddv.rsa]

They'll squash a lot of darkspawn. And the troops Bhelen sends to steal her Anvil.

[Sussurus]

Varric makes a comment about "if I have to read another word about golems..."
If the game has a dlc / expansion warden, deep roads or darkspawn based they'll most likely tack on some content.

If not DA: # will have the golems as a endgame ally / foe.

Modifié par Sussurus, 28 avril 2011 - 01:34 .

[bti79]

That's one of the things I thought "this will come back and bite us later" when my warden decided to let her keep it. (persuaded by Morrigan - just never could say no to that girl)

Her experiments on her own house and darkspawn to get to the anvil made me worry a bit. What happens once she continues those experiments involving the anvil.

Surely it was not a wise decision, but that's how it played out.

[Maladismal]

Letting branka keep the anvil is like letting morinth kill samara.

You do it for the lulz but......really who the heck would ever in any state of mind think it's a good idea.

[Knight of Dane]

Maladismal wrote...

Letting branka keep the anvil is like letting morinth kill samara.

You do it for the lulz but......really who the heck would ever in any state of mind think it's a good idea.

A brutal Dwarven Noble origin who thinks it might benefit Orzammar?
All the dwarves down there are bleedin' mad anyways..

Modifié par Knight of Dane, 28 avril 2011 - 04:37 .

[LobselVith8]

I was wondering how it may play out in DA2. The golems allowed a hundred years of peace and beat back the first Archdemon before Caridin closed the fortress and allowed dwarves to get eaten and violated because the use of the Anvil violated his sensibilities, so sparing the Anvil when all but two Great Thaigs have been claimed by the darkspawn is the pragmatic choice and the more likely choice to allow the dwarves to reclaim lost thaigs. The darkspawn need to be defeated.

[KnightofPhoenix]

With Bhelen, Branka would be mostly contained. She'd probably craft a golem suit for herself, though who would operate the anvil to make her a golem in the first place?

If she can't do that, she'll die of old age and the anvil can be reclaimed.

[LobselVith8]

Dalira Montanti wrote...

to kill alllllllllllllllllllllllll the Darkspwan you need to target the broodmothers and there well protected and well hidden (cough maybe not) but not all the Golems would be able to find allllllllll of them just saying Lobselvth8

I never said the golems would kill all the broodmothers, but look at it this way: the dwarven kingdoms used to run the span of the continent, and now they're overrun with darkspawn. Two Great Thaigs remain: Orzammar and Kal-Sharok. If the dwarves have any hope of beating back the darkspawn and reclaiming the lost thaigs from a force that can outnumber them easily (since Broodmothers seem to be capable of creating new darkspawn in possibly the hundreds or thousands) then they need an edge: a tide of steel soldiers who were capable of beating back the first Archdemon Dumat sounds like a good idea. Or the Warden can destroy the Anvil and leave the dwarves with nothing.

[Avissel]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I never said the golems would kill all the broodmothers, but look at it this way: the dwarven kingdoms used to run the span of the continent, and now they're overrun with darkspawn. Two Great Thaigs remain: Orzammar and Kal-Sharok. If the dwarves have any hope of beating back the darkspawn and reclaiming the lost thaigs from a force that can outnumber them easily (since Broodmothers seem to be capable of creating new darkspawn in possibly the hundreds or thousands) then they need an edge: a tide of steel soldiers who were capable of beating back the first Archdemon Dumat sounds like a good idea. Or the Warden can destroy the Anvil and leave the dwarves with nothing.

Except that that "edge" had already been beaten by the Darkspawn.  Golems couldn't stop them when the Dwarven Kingdom was whole, I doubt it could push them back now.

[LobselVith8]

Maladismal wrote...

Letting branka keep the anvil is like letting morinth kill samara.

You do it for the lulz but......really who the heck would ever in any state of mind think it's a good idea.

Anyone who wants the dwarven people to survive in the Great Thaigs as opposed to becoming a distant memory. I'd agree that Paragon Branka isn't the best choice to leave the Anvil with, but it's better than leaving the dwarves without a weapon capable of successfully beating back the darkspawn armies. Koyasha made a great post on the issue about sparing the Anvil and why she saw it as necessary:

Koyasha wrote...

Krigwin wrote...

Wrong. Ask for human military aid as your boon from Alistair and the Darkspawn will be driven back into the Dead Trenches. You've braved two Thaigs (Aeducan Thaig and Cadash Thaig) in the game, you know more than anyone else (possibly more than even any Grey Warden to come before you) what there is to face in the Deep Roads. It's not tough, the only reason the dwarves can't do it is because they lack the numbers.

The dwarves aided the humans in defeating this Blight even though their agreement was centuries-old and Orzammar had problems of their own. They honored their oath and Ferelden would have no problem returning the favor, especially as you have so many rallied armies ready to go after the siege of Denerim. Spread the news that the Darkspawn do in fact still exist, and possible more Blights are to come, and not only will the Grey Wardens, themselves numbering in the thousands, come rushing to the aid of the dwarves, but I can't imagine the other human nations not doing the same. Even the Qunari, after Sten brings back information of what exactly a Blight is and what the Darkspawn are capable of.

First off, I've got to start by reminding everyone that the dwarven kingdoms and the deep roads extend the entire length and breadth of the continent.  The distance to the dead trenches is miniscule compared to the entirety of Thedas, and retaking that tiny portion of the deep roads is insignificant as far as the whole of the continent goes.  It is like saying that if the entirety of the United States was overrun by enemy forces, with the exception of Los Angeles (Kal Sharok) and New York City (Orzammar), that securing the vast distance between New York and Trenton, New Jersey (Bownammar), was "much" of the lost territory.  Even if we went as far as Philadelphia, I don't think it would be that significant.

Furthermore, you are arguing from a position of utter fantasy that exists only in your imagination, it seems.  Do you believe the Grey Wardens, who send their people to Orzammar to die fighting darkspawn in the deep roads, are unaware that there are darkspawn in the deep roads?  Do you really think that after the last Blight was defeated, four hundred years ago, the surface nations simply did not know that there were more darkspawn in the deep roads?  Everyone knows damn well the deep roads are full of darkspawn.  And one of the early dialogue options as a mage sums up the attitude on that entirely: "Darkspawn are a dwarven problem."  Do you really believe the surface nations could be convinced to commit themselves to a decades or possibly even centuries-long war effort in order to secure the entirety of the deep roads and wipe out the darkspawn once and for all, when they do not feel threatened in the slightest?

Furthermore you behave as though the recent fight in Ferelden will spur the nations to action as though it presents the darkspawn as a major threat, when in point of fact it does quite the opposite.  To quote Alistair, "No Grey Warden has ever defeated a blight without the army of a dozen nations at their back."  From what we understand, the last four Blights spanned much of the continent, and every nation in Thedas was threatened.  This time, the Blight was defeated with most nations barely even becoming aware of it.  If anything, this is an indication to other nations that darkspawn and blights are nowhere near as threatening as the legends made them seem, a problem easily dealt with if you don't also have a civil war going at the same time.  And certainly not a problem that requires committing massive military force over generations in order to root out of their nests for the sake of the dwarves.

But you bring up a good point about the battle of attrition. Why is it that the dwarves are so hopelessly outnumbered? It could be because of the Brood Mother method of reproduction, that is certainly true. But then again, the Darkspawn do not go to the surface except in the case of a Blight, so where would they be getting these female victims from? Their only source would be the dwarves, and unless they were plopping out Brood Mothers by the dozen, they wouldn't have enough to breed such a massive army to outnumber all of Orzammar.

Consider that the only Brood Mother you encounter in the game is the result of Branka leading her house deep into the Deep Roads, and then willingly abandoning them to the Darkspawn. Otherwise, the only dwarves that go into the Deep Roads are warriors, which are all male. Consider that, without an Archdemon to command them and form the powerful synaptic hive mind that guides a Blight, the Darkspawn war amongst each other endlessly, just like Orcs, or demons, or any other faction of mindless beasts from fantasy.

No, I believe the real reason the dwarves are so outnumbered is because of their caste system, which limits the size of their armies. Dissolving the castes and conscripting warriors to fight the Darkspawn, which is very similar to what Bhelen does, would be more than enough to not only defend Orzammar but also branch out and reclaim lost territory. It sounds bad at first, but then you remember the alternative is extinction. The dwarves were getting too fat and lazy relying on their golems to do all the work, that's why when the Anvil was lost they lost ground so quickly. Only the Legion of the Dead has any real idea of how to fight the Darkspawn, and you hear it yourself from Kardol - they are bound by tradition to follow the lead of Orzammar's King, and Orzammar's Kings have been content to... pretty much do nothing and have a generally defeatist attitude about the Darkspawn.

Darkspawn are known to raid the surface in ragtag bands.  This is clearly stated quite often in the early stages of the game.  Their reason for doing so is rather clear, considering their method of reproduction.  Dwarves are not their only source of females to make broodmothers with.  And dwarves do have female warriors, or did you miss, say, the story of Astyth the Grey, who fought for the right of females to be warriors, and wound up inspiring an entire order of Silent Sisters?

The second is your character, and you're either not even a dwarf, or you're casteless. Neither of you are fit to represent society, and with the Assembly in disarray and no King in sight, no one has the real authority to make a decision like this. And even if you disagree, you're not even handing over the Anvil to society - you're handing it over to Branka. And even if you still disagree with that, you're not seizing food from some greedy farmer or something, you're taking the Anvil from not just any Paragon, but the most important Paragon in all of dwarven history, who has made revolutionary contributions to society and was much more powerful in his day than Branka ever was, and in order to do so in fact you have to kill him.

Branka and Caridin are both Paragons, and therefore equal as far as dwarven society goes.  Caridin himself notes that he made many things in his time, but the one he was made a Paragon for and the only one that he is remembered for is the Anvil.  Which he now wants to destroy.  Indeed, if he's going to destroy the reason he was made a Paragon, shouldn't that sort of...I don't know...nullify his Paragon-hood?  Cause he was made a Paragon cause he invented the Anvil and gave the dwarves golems, not for any other reason.

But none of that really matters, because Grey Wardens do whatever is necessary to defeat the darkspawn, and the Anvil can help in that goal.

Wrong. The weapon has already been taken away, and has been for centuries. Indeed no one even believes it still exists at the time of the game, except for Branka. You make it sound as if Caridin is actively rooting for the dwarves to fail, when really he has been long forgotten and the dwarves have moved on without him.

Ok, he took away their only effective weapon, past tense.  Rest is still entirely applicable.  The dwarves moved on without him because they felt they had no choice.  Branka was the only one driven (crazy?) enough to go after the Anvil, realizing that without it, they were doomed in the long term.

If you were somehow able to keep the Anvil around, but ensure that is used only for good, only to create soldiers to fight the Darkspawn, then this would be a tough choice, because while it is still a tool of evil, you'd be serving the greater good. But there is no such option. You have to hand it over to Branka, a psychotic megalomaniac who has already proven she has no qualms with sending her own kind off to the slaughterhouse. Branka is obsessed, her own husband tells you she has become increasingly unstable and possibly insane, and at the time you meet her she is legally dead with no real power amongst the dwarves. Once she gets it she even starts kidnapping people to use on the Anvil!

And in order to do this, you have to kill Caridin - a hero, who only tried to help his people. You have to murder him (and Shale) in order to keep the Anvil. You're committing an act of evil, to save a tool of evil, in order to hand it over to someone who could be called evil. Yeah, I can totally see the moral ambiguity there alright.

But what is she obsessed with?  Defeating the darkspawn!  Therefore, any means necessary still applies.

And while Caridin tried to help his people, he also turned around and rescinded that help when he decided it wasn't being done exactly the way his delicate sensibilities wanted.

Moral ambiguity is irrelevant.  Is keeping the anvil "evil?"  It doesn't matter.  It only matters that it is an effective tool to construct weapons against the darkspawn.  No sacrifice is too great in order to accomplish that goal, including the eternal enslavement of countless tens or hundreds of thousands, or even more, to construct the golem force needed to achieve ultimate victory.

[Cutlass Jack]

Maladismal wrote...

Letting branka keep the anvil is like letting morinth kill samara.

You do it for the lulz but......really who the heck would ever in any state of mind think it's a good idea.

I'd say its more like trying to romance Morinth after killing Samara...

[LobselVith8]

Avissel wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I never said the golems would kill all the broodmothers, but look at it this way: the dwarven kingdoms used to run the span of the continent, and now they're overrun with darkspawn. Two Great Thaigs remain: Orzammar and Kal-Sharok. If the dwarves have any hope of beating back the darkspawn and reclaiming the lost thaigs from a force that can outnumber them easily (since Broodmothers seem to be capable of creating new darkspawn in possibly the hundreds or thousands) then they need an edge: a tide of steel soldiers who were capable of beating back the first Archdemon Dumat sounds like a good idea. Or the Warden can destroy the Anvil and leave the dwarves with nothing.

Except that that "edge" had already been beaten by the Darkspawn.  Golems couldn't stop them when the Dwarven Kingdom was whole, I doubt it could push them back now.

There was a hundred years of peace when the golem army was being used, and the Archdemon Dumat was beaten back from the dwarven kingdoms. What happened was that Caridin decided to close the fortress and abandon his people to be eaten and violated by the darkspawn, which prevented the creation of new golems. That's why Branka was searching for the Anvil - because of what it was capable of accomplishing when it was in use a milennia ago.

[Avissel]

Turning political dissidents (or just people you don't like) into war slaves?

[LobselVith8]

Avissel wrote...

Turning political dissidents (or just people you don't like) into war slaves?

King Harrowmont uses them to murder the casteless of Dust Town when they demand rights, but King Bhelen is using the war caste, the casteless recruits, and the golem army to reclaim the lost thaigs. I never claimed that the choice was nice, but realistically, an army of steel soldiers who are capable of going toe to toe with an Archdemon sound like an asset that can prevent the decimination of the dwarven people, since the kingdoms have all been widdled down to two Great Thaigs.

[Avissel]

Behlen retakes the thaigs without the golems though, by ignoring the traditions that kept the dwarven population low and crippled the number of people in the army.

The anvil is not necessary for success and the dwarven leadership seems almost designed to abuse the kind of power the anvil can give.

[LobselVith8]

Avissel wrote...

Behlen retakes the thaigs without the golems though, by ignoring the traditions that kept the dwarven population low and crippled the number of people in the army.

Koyasha addressed the fact that retaking the lost thaigs, even under the scenerio with the Dwarven Warden asking for aid from the new ruler of Ferelden, isn't as massive an undertaking as some think it is:

Koyasha wrote...

First off, I've got to start by reminding everyone that the dwarven kingdoms and the deep roads extend the entire length and breadth of the continent.  The distance to the dead trenches is miniscule compared to the entirety of Thedas, and retaking that tiny portion of the deep roads is insignificant as far as the whole of the continent goes.  It is like saying that if the entirety of the United States was overrun by enemy forces, with the exception of Los Angeles (Kal Sharok) and New York City (Orzammar), that securing the vast distance between New York and Trenton, New Jersey (Bownammar), was "much" of the lost territory.  Even if we went as far as Philadelphia, I don't think it would be that significant. 

I'll admit that I don't like Branka, and I don't like what she did to her entire House, but she's the best of limited options.  The Grey Wardens are supposed to do whatever is necessary to stop the Blight and defeat the menace of the darkspawn, and even Alistair acknowledged this. The dwarven kingdoms are in ruins, the dwarven people are under the constant threat of annihilation. The Anvil presents hope for the dwarven people  because we know it was capable of dealing with the first Archdemon and the first Blight, and it provides a real possibility of keeping the dwarves in existance for the long term. I think the Anvil is too important to destroy simply because I find Branka morally reprehensible.

Avissel wrote...

The anvil is not necessary for success and the dwarven leadership seems almost designed to abuse the kind of power the anvil can give.

Your opinion is that it isn't necessary, but I don't agree. It could mean the life or death of the dwarven people, and we know from historical accounts how powerful and useful the golems can be. Why deny them the ability to keep their civilization and take back what was lost?

Modifié par LobselVith8, 28 avril 2011 - 07:08 .

[Avissel]

What Koyasha said actually had nothing to do with what I said >_> If you make Bhelen King and destroy the Anvil, he still retakes thaigs because he allows the casteless to fight.


And actually reading on DA wiki it says if he is in charge AND the Anvil exists, Branka gets upset and refuses to make them just for him, he bans the use of it and tries to take it by force but her golems defend it and it becomes it's own little fortress.

So how is that good for anybody?

[LobselVith8]

Avissel wrote...

What Koyasha said actually had nothing to do with what I said >_> If you make Bhelen King and destroy the Anvil, he still retakes thaigs because he allows the casteless to fight.

Koyasha addressed that retaking the thaigs is a small fraction of what was once the dwarven empire, so it's not like King Bhelen is on his way to restoring the dwarven kingdoms to the status quo they had before the Dumat and the darkspawn armies took them over. If the Warden can provide Orzammar with the opportunity to have the warrior caste, the casteless recruits, and the golems retake the lost thaigs, then why shouldn't he? You're acting like the golems will make no difference when, historically, they provided the dwarves with a hundred years of peace and stability from the darkspawn armies.

Avissel wrote...

And actually reading on DA wiki it says if he is in charge AND the Anvil exists, Branka gets upset and refuses to make them just for him, he bans the use of it and tries to take it by force but her golems defend it and it becomes it's own little fortress.

So how is that good for anybody?

Considering how the Epilogue slides keep getting rectonned, we have no idea whether this is still canon, or if the writers plan on pulling a Justice or Anders on us. If it's still canon, when Paragon Branka is dead, someone can replace her and use the Anvil to continue beating back the darkspawn from the dwarven populace, along with reclaiming the lost thaigs.

[blothulfur]

Even if you nobble Branka the ingenious bastards of the dwarven smith caste will probably finally find out how to replicate Carridins works, really wanted to point this out to the big guy at the anvil of the void and that not only does he have a duty to ensure the ethical use of his work is maintained but that with Shales awakening he has a moral duty to seek to awaken the rest of the honourable warriors who gave everything for their home and peoples.

[Avissel]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Koyasha addressed that retaking the thaigs is a small fraction of what was once the dwarven empire, so it's not like King Bhelen is on his way to restoring the dwarven kingdoms to the status quo they had before the Dumat and the darkspawn armies took them over. If the Warden can provide Orzammar with the opportunity to have the warrior caste, the casteless recruits, and the golems retake the lost thaigs, then why shouldn't he? You're acting like the golems will make no difference when, historically, they provided the dwarves with a hundred years of peace and stability from the darkspawn armies.

Because any of the golems have to be removed from those castes. For every one golem, that is one person no longer participating in the continuation of the species. Since Dwarven numbers are already stated to be low, thats not good. In order to completely retake the deep roads, they would need far greater numbers than they currently have. Even if they Golems retake them, they don't have enough people to hold them indefinitly.

There is als othe fact that you are giving control over the anvil ethier to:
A: The guy who thinks the casteless are worthless scum and that the surface people should not be trusted.
B: The guy who is willing to straight up murder his entire family for power.

These are not peopel you trust with the power to make a semi-invincible army.

LobselVith8 wrote...
Considering how the Epilogue slides keep getting rectonned, we have no idea whether this is still canon, or if the writers plan on pulling a Justice or Anders on us. If it's still canon, when Paragon Branka is dead, someone can replace her and use the Anvil to continue beating back the darkspawn from the dwarven populace, along with reclaiming the lost thaigs.

While the epilouges can't be considered cannon, they were will made by the writers, so we can use them as a 'what if" basis for disscussions like this.

Edit: the hell was that all about XD

Modifié par Avissel, 28 avril 2011 - 06:54 .