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[LobselVith8]

Avissel wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Koyasha addressed that retaking the thaigs is a small fraction of what was once the dwarven empire, so it's not like King Bhelen is on his way to restoring the dwarven kingdoms to the status quo they had before the Dumat and the darkspawn armies took them over. If the Warden can provide Orzammar with the opportunity to have the warrior caste, the casteless recruits, and the golems retake the lost thaigs, then why shouldn't he? You're acting like the golems will make no difference when, historically, they provided the dwarves with a hundred years of peace and stability from the darkspawn armies.

Because any of the golems have to be removed from those castes. For every one golem, that is one person no longer participating in the continuation of the species. Since Dwarven numbers are already stated to be low, thats not good. In order to completely retake the deep roads, they would need far greater numbers than they currently have. Even if they Golems retake them, they don't have enough people to hold them indefinitly.

There is als othe fact that you are giving control over the anvil ethier to:
A: The guy who thinks the casteless are worthless scum and that the surface people should not be trusted.
B: The guy who is willing to straight up murder his entire family for power.

These are not peopel you trust with the power to make a semi-invincible army.

Of course it takes the life of a person to enpower the golem, but they are stronger than the average warrior and their presence can mean the difference between a victory and a defeat. Orzammar has been mired in an endless war with the darkspawn since they first appeared in the Deep Roads. The dwarven populace is dwindling, and it's still a possibiliy that the dwarves could be wiped out by the darkspawn armies. Precautions are taken, but those precautions didn't save the other Great Thaigs from falling to an insidious enemy that seeks to destroy all sentient races. The Anvil provides the opportunity to destroy darkspawn by crafting soldiers who are worth "ten dwarves in battle."

Avissel wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Considering how the Epilogue slides keep getting rectonned, we have no idea whether this is still canon, or if the writers plan on pulling a Justice or Anders on us. If it's still canon, when Paragon Branka is dead, someone can replace her and use the Anvil to continue beating back the darkspawn from the dwarven populace, along with reclaiming the lost thaigs.

While the epilouges can't be considered cannon, they were will made by the writers, so we can use them as a 'what if" basis for disscussions like this.

I addressed the "what if" scenerio: Branka will eventually die, and the Anvil can be reclaimed.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 28 avril 2011 - 06:57 .

[Avissel]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Of course it takes the life of a person to enpower the golem, but they are stronger than the average warrior and their presence can mean the difference between a victory and a defeat. Orzammar has been mired in an endless war with the darkspawn since they first appeared in the Deep Roads. The dwarven populace is dwindling, and it's still a possibiliy that the dwarves could be wiped out by the darkspawn armies. Precautions are taken, but those precautions didn't save the other Great Thaigs from falling to an insidious enemy that seeks to destroy all sentient races. The Anvil provides the opportunity to destroy darkspawn by crafting soldiers who are worth "ten dwarves in battle."

Yes, but how many golems do you need? There would be a tipping point where the dwarven population could no longer maintain enough numbers to create more of them.

Besides "is the anivl useful" is not the arguemnt here. It's "is it neccecary?"
Behlen being able to reclaim thaigs with the help of the surface and the casteless is proof that no, it is not neccecary.

LobselVith8 wrote...
I addressed the "what if" scenerio: Branka will eventually die, and the Anvil can be reclaimed.

Thats not the point though, the point is that it never takes long for use of the anvil to change from "everybodys best interest" to "my best interest". You really think Behlen wouldn't start chucking people he didn't like unto the anvil?

Modifié par Avissel, 28 avril 2011 - 07:10 .

[Avissel]

stupid wrong button >_>

Modifié par Avissel, 28 avril 2011 - 07:09 .

[LobselVith8]

Avissel wrote...

Edit: the hell was that all about XD

It's obviously the result of blood magic.

Avissel wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Of course it takes the life of a person to enpower the golem, but they are stronger than the average warrior and their presence can mean the difference between a victory and a defeat. Orzammar has been mired in an endless war with the darkspawn since they first appeared in the Deep Roads. The dwarven populace is dwindling, and it's still a possibiliy that the dwarves could be wiped out by the darkspawn armies. Precautions are taken, but those precautions didn't save the other Great Thaigs from falling to an insidious enemy that seeks to destroy all sentient races. The Anvil provides the opportunity to destroy darkspawn by crafting soldiers who are worth "ten dwarves in battle."

Yes, but how many golems do you need? There would be a tipping point where the dwarven population could no longer maintain enough numbers to create more of them.

Besides "is the anvil useful" is not the arguemnt here. It's "is it neccecary?"
Behlen being able to reclaim thaigs with the help of the surface and the casteless is proof that no, it is not neccecary.

I'm saying that I think it is necessary. The dwarven kingdoms are in ruins, the dwarves are fighting a constant battle for survival, and there's no telling whether Orzammar or Kal-Sharok will eventually fall to the darkspawn like the other Great Thaigs have. Branka may be detestable, but she's not wrong when she addresses that dwarven civilization is in ruins. The darkspawn have taken nearly all of dwarven civilization, and the Anvil represents a real possibility to change that. Keeping the Anvil is a strategic choice to create an army of steel soldiers who can mean the difference between the survival or extinction of the dwarven people, particularly when they are fully capable of taking on an Archdemon (as Branka addresses when she explains why she wants to see the Anvil of the Void preserved).

Avissel wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I addressed the "what if" scenerio: Branka will eventually die, and the Anvil can be reclaimed.

Thats not the point though, the point is that it never takes long for use of the anvil to change from "everybodys best interest" to "my best interest". You really think Behlen wouldn't start chucking people he didn't like unto the anvil?

You mean Bhelen's political rivals, the same people who want the casteless to remain powerless and for tradition to keep going as it is?

[Avissel]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I'm saying that I think it is necessary. The dwarven kingdoms are in ruins, the dwarves are fighting a constant battle for survival, and there's no telling whether Orzammar or Kal-Sharok will eventually fall to the darkspawn like the other Great Thaigs have. Branka may be detestable, but she's not wrong when she addresses that dwarven civilization is in ruins. The darkspawn have taken nearly all of dwarven civilization, and the Anvil represents a real possibility to change that. Keeping the Anvil is a strategic choice to create an army of steel soldiers who can mean the difference between the survival or extinction of the dwarven people, particularly when they are fully capable of taking on an Archdemon (as Branka addresses when she explains why she wants to see the Anvil of the Void preserved).

Dwarven civilzation is in ruins because they have clung to the tradaitions, thats the main thing that kept their army artifically low. While the anivl would certinaly lead to the perservation of thier society it would also lead to the continuation of it's stagnation. If you got the golems, why should you change anything? That what happens in the Harrowmount + Anvil ending. You end up with a sulf sustaning culture built on isoloation and opression.

LobselVith8 wrote...
You mean Bhelen's political rivals, the same people who want the casteless to remain powerless and for tradition to keep going as it is?

Bhelen also killed his older and younger siblings to gain power. He also kills Harrowmount's entire family. Currently we dont know if the whole "got rid of the assembly and ruled alone" thing stuck, but if it did....then he also did that, turning the Dwarven Kingdom into a dictatership. While he is progressive in some ways, his a bit too murder happy to be leading a super army. Before you know it anybody he doesn't like it getting thrown to the anvil, and when he dies we have a brand new unknown taking over, no telling what happens then.

The anivl is the ultimate power temptation, something dwarves don't seem to handle well.

Modifié par Avissel, 28 avril 2011 - 07:35 .

[LobselVith8]

Avissel wrote...

Dwarven civilzation is in ruins because they have clung to the tradaitions, thats the main thing that kept their army artifically low. While the anivl would certinaly lead to the perservation of thier society it would also lead to the continuation of it's stagnation. If you got the golems, why should you change anything? That what happens in the Harrowmount + Anvil ending. You end up with a sulf sustaning culture built on isoloation and opression.

Stagnation is always the result of King Harrowmont's rule, regardless of whether the Anvil is spared or not. His rule leaves Orzammar isolated, the casteless without rights, and trade halted. King Bhelen is already changing the status quo when he grants the casteless more freedoms in exchange for their aid against the darkspawn. He's utilizing the warrior caste, the casteless recruits, and the golems to fight against the darkspawn who have overrun the Deep Roads for a milennia.

The never-ending struggle with the darkspawn are causing more dwarves to die than are born, or so we're informed in Origins. The darkspawn armies traditionally required all the human nations to battle them during the Blight, and one Great Thaig is slowly dwindling because their forces have been fighting the darkspawn for generations. As we learn from the Legion of the Dead when the Warden asks for aid during the Blight, "your nightmare is my every day."

Avissel wrote...

Bhelen also killed his older and younger siblings to gain power.

Which is precisely what his father, King Endrin, did to gain power. This is dwarven politics, after all.

Avissel wrote...

He also kills Harrowmount's entire family.

And King Harrowmont would have no problem sending the golems to decimate the people of Dust Town if they protested their growing lack of rights. King Bhelen was consolidating power and dealing with enemies when his foes were trying to kill him.

Avissel wrote...

Currently we dont know if the whole "got rid of the assembly and ruled alone" thing stuck, but if it did....then he also did that, turning the Dwarven Kingdom into a dictatership.

King Bemont also dissolved the Assembly during the Blight, so there's a precedent for this. Bhelen does this after several assassination attempts.

Avissel wrote...

While he is progressive in some ways, his a bit too murder happy to be leading a super army. Before you know it anybody he doesn't like it getting thrown to the anvil, and when he dies we have a brand new unknown taking over, no telling what happens then.

This isn't the case when King Bhelen gives the casteless more freedoms.

Avissel wrote...

The anvil is the ultimate power temptation, something dwarves don't seem to handle well.

The darkspawn are an implacable enemy that has thrived for a millennia. The golems could sway the balance of battle in favor of the dwarves. As it is, the dwarves have a finite number who are able to battle the darkspawn. The Broodmothers seem capable of replenishing the darkspawn from a dwarven ratio of 1000:1. I'm guessing at the numbers, but the darkspawn clearly are capable of producing greater numbers than the dwarves, particularly when one considers that the darkspawn control the Deep Roads and the fallen thaigs.

[ddv.rsa]

Avissel wrote...

Bhelen also killed his older and younger siblings to gain power. He also kills Harrowmount's entire family. Currently we dont know if the whole "got rid of the assembly and ruled alone" thing stuck, but if it did....then he also did that, turning the Dwarven Kingdom into a dictatership. While he is progressive in some ways, his a bit too murder happy to be leading a super army. Before you know it anybody he doesn't like it getting thrown to the anvil, and when he dies we have a brand new unknown taking over, no telling what happens then.

The anivl is the ultimate power temptation, something dwarves don't seem to handle well.

Dissolving the Assembly turns Orzammar into a dictatorship? Lol. You say that like it used to be a democracy. Bhelen replaces oligarchy with autocracy. But unless you're a noble, you don't have any less power than when the Assembly ruled.

[Avissel]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Stagnation is always the result of King Harrowmont's rule, regardless of whether the Anvil is spared or not. His rule leaves Orzammar isolated, the casteless without rights, and trade halted. King Bhelen is already changing the status quo when he grants the casteless more freedoms in exchange for their aid against the darkspawn. He's utilizing the warrior caste, the casteless recruits, and the golems to fight against the darkspawn who have overrun the Deep Roads for a milennia.

Harrowmount with out the Anvil ends up with Harrowmount dead, so we dont actaully know what happens after that (probably not anything GOOD, but still)

While Bhlen is progressive on the issues of casteless and the surface, he is still a power obsessed murder. Would you trust him with an unneccecary golem army?

LobselVith8 wrote...
The never-ending struggle with the darkspawn are causing more dwarves to die than are born, or so we're informed in Origins. The darkspawn armies traditionally required all the human nations to battle them during the Blight, and one Great Thaig is slowly dwindling because their forces have been fighting the darkspawn for generations. As we learn from the Legion of the Dead when the Warden asks for aid during the Blight, "your nightmare is my every day."

More Dwarves that are allowed to fight are being killed than born. Thats the warrior caste and the noble caste, I was never clear on if the smith caste were put on the front lines. If your factor in births in the casteless, the number goes up, if you added in the number of castless that would jump at the chance to fight the darkspawn, the size of the army would probably double. Thats the case of the Bhelen + no anivl ending. They retake the taigs do to him vastly increaseing the numbers of the dwarven forces and accepting the help of the surface.

LobselVith8 wrote...
Which is precisely what his father, King Endrin, did to gain power. This is dwarven politics, after all.

Which is again why I would not trust any of them with golems. Murdering anybody thats against you is like the second lesson taught in dwarven kindergarden.

LobselVith8 wrote...
And King Harrowmont would have no problem sending the golems to decimate the people of Dust Town if they protested their growing lack of rights. King Bhelen was consolidating power and dealing with enemies when his foes were trying to kill him.

I never meant to imply Harrowmount would have done differently. I'm just establishing that Bhlen has no problem with mass murder to get his way.

LobselVith8 wrote...
King Bemont also dissolved the Assembly during the Blight, so there's a precedent for this. Bhelen does this after several assassination attempts.

That was during a blight, Bhelen dissolves it after a blight.

LobselVith8 wrote...
This isn't the case when King Bhelen gives the casteless more freedoms.

It is still the case. He gives them more freedom, but he still desolves the council and rules alone, establishing himself as a dictator.

LobselVith8 wrote...
The darkspawn are an implacable enemy that has thrived for a millennia. The golems could sway the balance of battle in favor of the dwarves. As it is, the dwarves have a finite number who are able to battle the darkspawn. The Broodmothers seem capable of replenishing the darkspawn from a dwarven ratio of 1000:1. I'm guessing at the numbers, but the darkspawn clearly are capable of producing greater numbers than the dwarves, particularly when one considers that the darkspawn control the Deep Roads and the fallen thaigs.

The golems would help at first, but it wouldn't be too long before things got out of hand, just like the last time. The ease with which Harrowmount and Bhelen are able to just murder anybody they feel like does not bode well for giving ethier one of them a giant rock army.

[Avissel]

DD, an autocracy and a dictatorship are the same thing. So yes, he turns it into a dictatership. The assembly might not have been a democracy, but it was still more progressive than one single person holding absolute power.

Modifié par Avissel, 28 avril 2011 - 08:28 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Avissel wrote...

DD, an autocracy and a dictatorship are the same thing. So yes, he turns it into a dictatership. The assembly might not have been a democracy, but it was still more progressive than one single person holding absolute power.

It was the very oppositve of progressive. It was conservative at best, regressive at worst.

[ddv.rsa]

Avissel wrote...

DD, an autocracy and a dictatorship are the same thing. So yes, he turns it into a dictatership.

So? I never disputed that.

The assembly might not have been a democracy, but it was still more progressive than one single person holding absolute power.

The Assembly served the interests of the noble houses, not the people. There was nothing progressive about it. They spent too much time bickering and politicking to get anything done. At least with them gone the king can get on with his job.

[Avissel]

ddv.rsa wrote...
The Assembly served the interests of the noble houses, not the people. There was nothing progressive about it. They spent too much time bickering and politicking to get anything done. At least with them gone the king can get on with his job.

That could describe most non-singular entity governments.

Still, I think a few people holding power is better than one guy holding power. It is atleast a step in the right direction.

[Bratinov]

I really wish there was a option to kill Branka and keep the anvil, its obvious she can not be trusted with it.
She may be the only one who could figure it out, but this had to be done under supervision.

[LobselVith8]

Avissel wrote...

Harrowmount with out the Anvil ends up with Harrowmount dead, so we dont actaully know what happens after that (probably not anything GOOD, but still)

I agree, it's doubtful that anything good happens when he dies. It's a power vaccum for nobles to fight over the throne. Harrowmont's policies transpire during his reign as King, which is why the rights of the casteless are further restricted, the Great Thaig is isolated from the surface and trade is halted, and no attempt is made to retake the lost thaigs. Besides Harrowmont's eagerness to craft a statute for the Warden, there's no reason I can see to place him on the throne to Orzammar. None of the other contenders for the throne will likely attempt any of the reforms that Bhelen will institute as King.

Avissel wrote...

While Bhlen is progressive on the issues of casteless and the surface, he is still a power obsessed murder. Would you trust him with an unneccecary golem army?

Is it unnecessary? We honestly don't know that. The dwarves will always be under danger as long as the darkspawn live, and they are a monstrous threat that literally eat people and violate women to propogate their species. The darkspawn can breach the Deep Roads because they can burrow tunnels for themselves (since this is the method they use to locate the Old Gods) and they can establish entrances for themselves in random locations. Golems would be valuable because they don't have the same requirements that people do - they don't get tired, they don't sleep, they don't eat, they don't get scared, and they don't give in. Some might consider the golems necessary for the survival of the dwarven people of Orzammar.

Avissel wrote...

More Dwarves that are allowed to fight are being killed than born. Thats the warrior caste and the noble caste, I was never clear on if the smith caste were put on the front lines. If your factor in births in the casteless, the number goes up, if you added in the number of castless that would jump at the chance to fight the darkspawn, the size of the army would probably double. Thats the case of the Bhelen + no anivl ending. They retake the taigs do to him vastly increaseing the numbers of the dwarven forces and accepting the help of the surface.

Bhelen recruits the casteless to fight against the darkspawn even if the Anvil is spared. Sparing the Anvil from destruction is the pragmatic choice, and adds another party to the contingent of warrior caste and casteless combatants who are going to deal with the darkspawn hordes.

Avissel wrote...

Which is again why I would not trust any of them with golems. Murdering anybody thats against you is like the second lesson taught in dwarven kindergarden.

I'd argue that what Bhelen did was necessary, because no one else was willing to institute the changes that he was willing to implement as Orzammar's new ruler. Dwarven politics is dirty, but politics are dirty in general, and denying the dwarves the right to defend themselves against the darkspawn with the Anvil's capacity to create an army of powerful steel soldiers that could make a real difference is denying them

Avissel wrote...

I never meant to imply Harrowmount would have done differently. I'm just establishing that Bhlen has no problem with mass murder to get his way.

I'd agree - when it comes to his enemies, he has no problem putting them down as a means of survival. Even his attempts to kill Lord Renvil Harrowmont - the last of his line - was a means to prevent an insurrection against his rule.

Avissel wrote...

That was during a blight, Bhelen dissolves it after a blight.

I already addressed that. I was saying that there's a precedence for the Assembly to be dissolved.

Avissel wrote...

It is still the case. He gives them more freedom, but he still desolves the council and rules alone, establishing himself as a dictator.

I don't have an issue with that. Whether it's a group of nobles arguing amongst themselves and struggling for power, or one member of royalty ruling alone, there's no democracy in Orzammar. Considering what Bhelen did when he opened trade with the surface, recruited the casteless into the fight against the darkspawn, and sent the soldiers to fight against the darkspawn, I'd say his changes lead to a better future for Orzammar.

Avissel wrote...

The golems would help at first, but it wouldn't be too long before things got out of hand, just like the last time. The ease with which Harrowmount and Bhelen are able to just murder anybody they feel like does not bode well for giving ethier one of them a giant rock army.

The problem is that the darkspawn violate women and eat people, so the dwarves fighting can be used against them if any of them are captured. This isn't the case with the golems. The golem army can be instructed to deal with the darkspawn, and the loss of the "volunteers" would be worth the sacrifices if it means being one step closer to destroying the darkspawn. Branka's current goal is to use the Anvil to defeat the darkspawn, and the golems will be instrumental in that process.

[blothulfur]

One of my old threads about a similar matter somebody mentioned making the legion of the dead custodians of the anvil so that they are not tempted by worldly power or anything but their effectiveness in killing the demonspawn, sounds like a good idea to me though of course open to abuse by an exiled noble a la Sophia Dryden in wardens keep. This also limits the numbers of warriors taken from the dwindling pool of Orzammars peoples.

Oh and since when has the blight ever ended for the dwarven people, they are in an eternal state of emergency something that i'm sure Bhelen counted on when enacting his measures.

Modifié par blothulfur, 28 avril 2011 - 11:01 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Avissel wrote...

Because any of the golems have to be removed from those castes. For every one golem, that is one person no longer participating in the continuation of the species. Since Dwarven numbers are already stated to be low, thats not good. In order to completely retake the deep roads, they would need far greater numbers than they currently have. Even if they Golems retake them, they don't have enough people to hold them indefinitly.

Golems are regularly established as being worth twenty trained soldiers. Plus, seeing as how golems don't age, they have a generational preservation effect.

It's hardly as if the people who would otherwise not be made golems would be free to further the species: the political enemies deemed worth being made golems would still otherwise be killed (Bhelen), or the casteless would be kept out (Harrowmount). You aren't ripping out the productive heart of Dwarven society: either way you spin it, you're taking people who wouldn't be contributing more and having them be worth double digits of soldiers.

There is als othe fact that you are giving control over the anvil ethier to:
A: The guy who thinks the casteless are worthless scum and that the surface people should not be trusted.
B: The guy who is willing to straight up murder his entire family for power.

These are not peopel you trust with the power to make a semi-invincible army.

Sure they are. They're the only options you have other than letting darkspawn over run.

[SkittlesKat96]

 Well as you all know the golems killed heaps of darkspawn and pushed through the deep roads a bit...then Branka went crazy and fortressed herself and killed a bunch of Bhelen's or Harrowmonts soldiers.

Now we just have to wait and see what she is planning...I hope she is planning to make a massive army to fight the darkspawn...

EDIT: I didn't keep the anvil though mind you, Branka was crazy and the dwarves numbers were too low, the sacrifice was too risky and too great, I'm not going to let my fear compromise and possibly doom the whole Dwarven race or anything.

Modifié par SkittlesKat96, 29 avril 2011 - 07:30 .

[Maladismal]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Maladismal wrote...

Letting branka keep the anvil is like letting morinth kill samara.

You do it for the lulz but......really who the heck would ever in any state of mind think it's a good idea.

I'd say its more like trying to romance Morinth after killing Samara...

Nah. I know lots of people who'd be willing to suffer "Death by Snu Snu"

[Ulicus]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

With Bhelen, Branka would be mostly contained. She'd probably craft a golem suit for herself, though who would operate the anvil to make her a golem in the first place?

If she can't do that, she'll die of old age and the anvil can be reclaimed.

Maybe the DA anime movie is gonna be a dwarven mecha series.

Golem Lagaan. Or something.

[Pandaman102]

Pretty much nothing will come of Branka's golems. The only way it can show up as a major plot point in subsequent games is if the dev team retcons and make the decision of keeping the Anvil canon, because they wouldn't want to create a vastly different gameplay experience based on a previous game for fear of alienating new players.

But that wouldn't make sense because they'd be pissing off old players for something that new players wouldn't even know or care about. Easier to just have another golem army lead by some crazy dwarf named Aknarb wielding an golem-making artifact called The Hammer. New players get to enjoy the golems, old players don't get their choice invalidated... completely.

[Avissel]

@Lob
While I cant argue against the fact that Bhelen does a lot of good for Orzammar, I still just wouldn't be able to trust someone like him with something as powerful as the anvil, I wouldn't trust anybody with that thing really. The temptation to misuse it is too great, so far everybody that's used it has ended up abusing it and at least 2 of those instanced turn into a slave army.

still it's nice to have debates that don't just become " No u!"

@Dean
My point was that while those people cant contribute to the fighting forces or population numbers (cause they are dead or casteless) WITH the anvil you are also decreasing the numbers of the other castes via actual volunteers. If too many golems were made that way, you'd be at a risk of greatly reducing the variation of the gene pool.
and they AREN'T the only option. Without them Bhelen's changes are still able to reclaim lost Thaigs.

@Ulicus
Yours is the giant stone arm that will pierce the heavens!

Modifié par Avissel, 29 avril 2011 - 02:11 .

[Ulicus]

Pandaman102 wrote...

Pretty much nothing will come of Branka's golems. The only way it can show up as a major plot point in subsequent games is if the dev team retcons and make the decision of keeping the Anvil canon, because they wouldn't want to create a vastly different gameplay experience based on a previous game for fear of alienating new players.

But that wouldn't make sense because they'd be pissing off old players for something that new players wouldn't even know or care about. Easier to just have another golem army lead by some crazy dwarf named Aknarb wielding an golem-making artifact called The Hammer. New players get to enjoy the golems, old players don't get their choice invalidated... completely.

They were already retconning the anvil decision as early as the DA:O epilogues.

[Super_Fr33k]

It was always my thinking, especially since my default Warden is a city elf rogue who believes in innovation, that Branka presents the player with a false choice. The options are not, "keep the anvil and save the dwarves," or "destroy it and continue their desperate struggle."

DAO, notably, does not really let you challenge the immense inefficiency, oppression and xenophobia of dwarven society. Who is to say these are not the cancers of dwarven society, without which they might better combat the darkspawn?

The casteless represent an immense wasted resource; indeed, the entire caste system is profoundly unjust and wasteful. At least the Qunari actually evaluate people as individuals before forcing a role on them. Like the Dalish, the dwarves are too obsessed with their past, which they will never truly reclaim, to seize their best future.

The anvil is a powerful tool, yes, but it is not the solution to the true problems destroying dwarven society. A more open, meritocratic society that sought alliances would go far in pushing back the darkspawn. There's more than one way to win a war. Turning your own people into immortal slaves shouldn't be the first choice.

[youngzman]

To the "It CAN be abused, DESTROY IT" argument.
You CAN kill with a pencil/pencil. Should we round up every writing utensil on the planet and burn them?
"Oh but, you don't force someones soul into that of a stone-heartless golem"
True, but you take away a life when you kill with pen/pencil. As much as I know, some people like/consider themselves as golems. While not every can/like to consider themselves dead.