1033 réponses à ce sujet

[Vice-Admiral von Titsling]

David Gaider wrote...

Not to suggest anything beyond this, but if one is going to compare the sales of the two games one might also wish to take into account the fact that Origins was released shortly before Christmas. Beyond that, whatever extrapolations you wish to make are up to you.

It also probably helped that DA:O was a high-quality RPG, whereas...well, you already know.

Either way, no amount of Santa's Christmas magic-- let alone the number of 'shinies' or 'ZOMGs' you cut out of the main game and then tacked back onto it for cash-- would have helped DA2.

[Lord Phoebus]

ItsToofy wrote...

Oh, I thought it was because you took 6 years to make and it was a quality product, not a christmas cash in that was long in the works...I guess you proved my thoughts wrong there.

A lot of that 6 years was engine, dev. tools, background lore, etc. that was recycled for DA2.  If you subtract off the time spent on shared resources between the two games, it's probably 2.5-3 years on DA:O vs. 1.5 for DA2.  If anything with the shorter dev. cycle for DA2, they probably should have recycled as many art resources as possible from DA:O instead of making new models for the elves, qunari, darkspawn, etc. and sunk more zots into the campaign and area design. 

Modifié par Lord Phoebus, 28 avril 2011 - 04:22 .

[Corto81]

David Gaider wrote...

That and the fact that Origins also sold awesomely because it was an awesome game.

Very true. And it sold awesomely as well.

You guys didn't need to monitor it and explain stuff, the game did most of the talking for itself (IMO).
Excellent reviews and customer/fans loving it made it sell very good much longer than an average AAA game, which generally peak very early... DA:O kept selling at a good rate for a while.

Without getting too much into why you took a different approach to DAII, I do hope the eventual 3rd game will be more akin to the original game and I think that would tell in the sales.

CoD people are still gonna play CoD, not DA2.
Uncharted/AC people are still gonna play their games, not DA2.
The problem is... If the RPG people don't play DA2 cos the game doesn't feel right to them... Sales drop.
(and that's the biggest problem with DA2 IMO... It will never appeal enough to "other genre" people, and it steps away enough from the RPG core to alienate a LOT of the RPG fans - not all, not generalizing, but obviously a lot)

In the end, I don't think you should make excuses for DA:O being a huge hit.
You guys made it, and it was a masterpiece of "old-school" RPGs... Which still have a huge fan base throughout the world - as shown by high sales for a lot of RPG titles, single player or MMO.

Modifié par Corto81, 28 avril 2011 - 04:23 .

[Jerrybnsn]

Lord Phoebus wrote...

they probably shouldn't have recycled as many art resources as possible from DA:O instead of making new models for the elves, qunari, darkspawn, etc. and sunk more zots into the campaign and area design. 

exactly. AC series keeps getting better and better just by tweaking the next game, and they can put out a game every year.

[ConnorHawke]

All props to David Gaider for his past work, but the reason I cringe at his comments is because it seems like a slight denial of reality. I was not planning to buy DA:O, but did so loooooong after it's release on the strength of positive "word of mouth.'

Please wake up Bioware....

With a little effort all the obvious data pointing to product failure can be explained away:
1. Belligerent, overactive rpg fanbase resistant to change
2. Holiday season meant better sales for DA:O
3. All the flaws in DA:2 existed in DA:O

It's up to you to make the real decisions about what actually happened. Play Act 1 of DA:2 and then play through Ostagar of DA:O and you tell me which is the better game....

Not to mention, DA:2 had the tremendous benefit of DA:O as a huge success. DA:O had to forge its own way.

[berelinde]

simonc4175 wrote...

People should actually want this game be a sucess as more and more developers are backing out from producing games for the PC.

If PC game sales decline that it's entirely possible that Bioware won't release PC titles in the future.

The chances are DA2 has a high piracy rate as most newly released games do.

People DO want the franchise to succeed. That's why they're posting these figures. It's a "Learn from your fail" situation.

And you're missing the point. Dragon Age is not a PC-only franchise. People make a big deal about PC gamers being DA2 haters, but PC sales represent roughly 20% of the units sold. The other 80% is made up of X360/PS3 sales. 4chan is not picketing the stores and preventing gamers from purchasing their console copies. The only thing keeping the sales figures down is the public reaction to the game now that negative reviews are coming out. And the users of all platforms seem to be responding about equally. Survey after survey on this very site has proven that console gamers have the same collective opinion about the game as PC gamers. Level playing field.

Statistically speaking, factors that affected sales of DA:O have had about the same effect on DA2 and vice versa. The ratio of PC:Console has not changed significantly between DA:O and DA2. The review scores are pretty much the same: DA:O sales outperform DA2 on all platforms. The ratio of satisfied customers:dissatisfied customers is pretty much the same across all platforms. Naturally, there's no way to estimate how many units are pirated, but it was probably the same for DA:O. And there's nothing to say that a few cases of X360 units didn't fall off the back of a truck. It's about as relevant to the discussion. In other words, platform is a total non-issue.

[Vice-Admiral von Titsling]

berelinde wrote...
4chan is not picketing the stores and preventing gamers from purchasing their console copies. The only thing keeping the sales figures down is the public reaction to the game now that negative reviews are coming out.

The "BAWWWW 4chan is raiding our Metacritic score :(" BS was shameful from top to bottom. The only thing affecting DA2's reputation is DA2 itself.

[Apollo Starflare]

Vice-Admiral von Titsling wrote...

berelinde wrote...
4chan is not picketing the stores and preventing gamers from purchasing their console copies. The only thing keeping the sales figures down is the public reaction to the game now that negative reviews are coming out.

The "BAWWWW 4chan is raiding our Metacritic score :(" BS was shameful from top to bottom. The only thing affecting DA2's reputation is DA2 itself.

Except trolls in general (not just 4chan) have long since made metacritic user scores pointless for almost any game, not just DA2. I haven't seen many fans of the game arguing that the game should have higher than an 80 odd averaged score despite loving it themselves.

[Vice-Admiral von Titsling]

Apollo Starflare wrote...
Except trolls in general (not just 4chan) have long since made metacritic user scores pointless for almost any game

Give me a break. Metacritic scores are usually very reasonable.

[ConnorHawke]

And if I could ask David Gaider one thing it would be: Why, oh why, have you adopted the IGN, Call of Duty worshipping, oversimplified meme that sophisticated RPG's can't have broad appeal?

The beauty of DA:O was that through tremendous effort and love of detail YOU PROVED THEM WRONG! You won!

Yes, it (DA:O) was hard....but the difficulty actually made the game feel rewarding.
Yes, some parts were long...but the length gave the story a chance to breathe and allowed the player to become immersed.
Yes, the fighting was structured and tactical....but it allowed the player to live the identity of the party and respected the most important elements of all tactics: TIME and DISTANCE.
Yes, the story used a traditional frame...but you innovated a new context for almost every culture and conflict.

For every person you lost because of the nitpicks...you gained 10 more. That was the success story of DA:O! That is why it sold MORE than expected by the action-game loving sites. Sigh. I have to explain this to the company that created DA:O???? This is so surreal.

It's like watching a team win the Superbowl and then trade away its star quarterback.

[Silverfox4]

Well the truth of the matter is - Did they make more money off DAO with their 5+ year development? Or DA2 with their 1+ year development? I believe DA2.

They know the reviews are polarizing. They might take notice on a few things such as recycled maps for DA3. But I am willing to bet DA3 will be twice as short as DA2. I personally am ok with that if the quality is much better.

[AkiKishi]

Silverfox4 wrote...

Well the truth of the matter is - Did they make more money off DAO with their 5+ year development? Or DA2 with their 1+ year development? I believe DA2.

They know the reviews are polarizing. They might take notice on a few things such as recycled maps for DA3. But I am willing to bet DA3 will be twice as short as DA2. I personally am ok with that if the quality is much better.

Is it worth sacrificing a reputation for some extra profits?

[Jerrybnsn]

ConnorHawke wrote...

It's like watching a team win the Superbowl and then trade away its star quarterback.

That would be the Detroit Lions in 1957 trading away Bobby Layne.  And we know how their story turned out fifty years later.

[Wittand25]

You know it is a funny thing with fan feedback.
Today I picked up my gaming magazins (yes I read more than one). Both of them have user charts and quess which game is in the top ten in both charts ?
Yes it is DA2 (It is also amongst the top 5 for retail sales in April here according to varios retailers who have sales charts)

If one would only read this part of the BSN one would believe that this is the worst game since the invention of the computer but go outside of here and the general opinion of the game seems quite better.

[Cybermortis]

Apollo Starflare wrote...
Except trolls in general (not just 4chan) have long since made metacritic user scores pointless for almost any game, not just DA2.

While employee's of gaming companies posting perfect scores for their companies games is, I assume, perfectly acceptable....

The low/lower scores for DA2 (certainly compared to DAO) appear on all user review sites - from Amazon to the Internet Movie Database.

The argument that DAO sold better because it was released before Christmas only holds for the first month of sales. It doesn't explain why sales spiked at week 8 - which would be towards the end of January/beginning of Febuary.

[FubarCFSnafu]

The interesting part of this chart shows the huge number of pre-orders that make up the original DA2 sales figures within the first week, then it just goes down hill after that. However, when you look at the chart, DA:O sales are actually going up while DA:2 continues to go down.

In addition, when you look at some of the price drops for DA:2, they dropped the price much quicker then DA:O and they are giving away ME:2 for free. This could be spun any which way, it just does not look good.

[_Aine_]

Wittand25 wrote...

If one would only read this part of the BSN one would believe that this is the worst game since the invention of the computer but go outside of here and the general opinion of the game seems quite better.

you know that kid who wants to see what happens to bugs in the heat of summer, so targets them under a magnifying glass??  

Well, the forums are under the glass.  =D   It is a highly focused and not entirely always healthy place sometimes because it is isolated and opinions are made stronger because they kind of get amplified simply by their design.  

Not sure how "clear" the numbers are.... part of me says ...ok maybe you can trade off the christmas rush for DAO with pre-order hype for DA2... not sure they relate quite appropriately in terms of numbers though.  Compare a full year to a full year for a better picture probably.  

[Maverick827]

Hypocrites, all of you.

You first complained that DA2 was "dumbed down for the masses," claiming this to be the source of the game's initial success. You complained that BioWare "sold out," pandering to the larger market and compromising their artistic integrity in the process. You said that sales figures didn't matter because, at the core, BioWare had failed to produce a quality product.

Now that the numbers are on your side, however, suddenly they matter. Suddenly they are a basis on which BioWare should make decisions. What's more is that now, whether or not you realize it, you are the "masses" to which you hope BioWare will pander. You are the ones asking them to compromise their artistic integrity and make games the way you want them to, not the way they want to, in order to make more money and be more successful and popular.

You are all children.

[Merced652]

Maverick827 wrote...

Hypocrites, all of you.

You first complained that DA2 was "dumbed down for the masses," claiming this to be the source of the game's initial success. You complained that BioWare "sold out," pandering to the larger market and compromising their artistic integrity in the process. You said that sales figures didn't matter because, at the core, BioWare had failed to produce a quality product.

Now that the numbers are on your side, however, suddenly they matter. Suddenly they are a basis on which BioWare should make decisions. What's more is that now, whether or not you realize it, you are the "masses" to which you hope BioWare will pander. You are the ones asking them to compromise their artistic integrity and make games the way you want them to, not the way they want to, in order to make more money and be more successful and popular.

You are all children.

Oh man, please write a blog or do a video like this.. please please please 

[TJSolo]

Maverick827 wrote...

Hypocrites, all of you.

You first complained that DA2 was "dumbed down for the masses," claiming this to be the source of the game's initial success. You complained that BioWare "sold out," pandering to the larger market and compromising their artistic integrity in the process. You said that sales figures didn't matter because, at the core, BioWare had failed to produce a quality product.

Now that the numbers are on your side, however, suddenly they matter. Suddenly they are a basis on which BioWare should make decisions. What's more is that now, whether or not you realize it, you are the "masses" to which you hope BioWare will pander. You are the ones asking them to compromise their artistic integrity and make games the way you want them to, not the way they want to, in order to make more money and be more successful and popular.

You are all children.

Your misrepresentation of other people's arguments is topnotch.

[Vice-Admiral von Titsling]

Maverick827 wrote...
What's more is that now, whether or not you realize it, you are the "masses" to which you hope BioWare will pander. You are the ones asking them to compromise their artistic integrity and make games the way you want them to, not the way they want to, in order to make more money and be more successful and popular.

Video games are not a charity. Video games are a business, and like any other business, they want to make money. In order to do that, they need to persuade me to part with my hard-earned cash, and the way that they do that is by making games I want to buy.

So yeah-- I want them to make games for me, not CoD players. ANY fan would complain if the thing that they loved was being altered from its essential nature in order to appeal to people who didn't like it in its original itineration. Unfortunately, the reason things in the world exist and are different is because people have different tastes. If you mixed chocolate with every other flavor in the world in order to get peach, vanilla and lemon lovers to buy it, how many people who loved the old original chocolate would keep buying it? Chocolate was popular for a reason.

If they want my praise, cash and time they're going to have to make games for ME. I don't give Bioware money because I like them as people, I give them money for a product. If they don't want to make a product for me, then I don't care how nice they are, I'm going to shun it.

And if schadenfreude is wrong I don't wanna be right.

[_Aine_]

Maverick827 wrote...

Hypocrites, all of you.

You first complained that DA2 was "dumbed down for the masses," claiming this to be the source of the game's initial success. You complained that BioWare "sold out," pandering to the larger market and compromising their artistic integrity in the process. You said that sales figures didn't matter because, at the core, BioWare had failed to produce a quality product.

Now that the numbers are on your side, however, suddenly they matter. Suddenly they are a basis on which BioWare should make decisions. What's more is that now, whether or not you realize it, you are the "masses" to which you hope BioWare will pander. You are the ones asking them to compromise their artistic integrity and make games the way you want them to, not the way they want to, in order to make more money and be more successful and popular.

You are all children.

Oh, then in that case...

Can I have a pony  ? 

Modifié par shantisands, 28 avril 2011 - 05:19 .

[Merced652]

i just noticed the OP's name... i.. i am jealous sir that i didn't think of that first. Praise you for shaming both Rebecca Black and DA2 at the same time! Your brilliance shall shine forever.

[Rixxencaxx]

David Gaider wrote...

Not to suggest anything beyond this, but if one is going to compare the sales of the two games one might also wish to take into account the fact that Origins was released shortly before Christmas. Beyond that, whatever extrapolations you wish to make are up to you.

......and continued to sell better than da2 even after christmas........and as a new ip had lower preorders......and  someone is in denial

[Merced652]

Rixxencaxx wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Not to suggest anything beyond this, but if one is going to compare the sales of the two games one might also wish to take into account the fact that Origins was released shortly before Christmas. Beyond that, whatever extrapolations you wish to make are up to you.

......and continued to sell better than da2 even after christmas........and as a new ip had lower preorders......and  someone is in denial

You should've just linked it back to his post on the 5 stages.