1033 réponses à ce sujet

[YohkoOhno]

I'd have to disagree that DAO was totally new. I didn't see any adds for the game that did not mention Balder's Gate, a game that all fantasy RPGers knew all too well. They were riding on BG's shoulders, just like DA2 rode on DAO's shoulders.

We were speaking about TV ads, and I don't believe any of them ever mentioned prior Bioware games. The TV ads were mass market, and you don't mention an over 10 year old product out there.

Bioware is certainly not as strong a brand in the mass consumer market as other game companies are.

[Yrkoon]

YohkoOhno wrote...


I didn't say they charged more for ads. I said it costs more to market a new product because you have to build awareness of that product. A new product costs more to market because people don't know about it and it has a built-in audience. Just crack open any business textbook.

That's a Generic textbook  theory, but it doesn't really apply for DA:O's marketing since  in this case  we've got Bioware & EA's name on the product - and everything those two names stand for.

You can ignore this fact, but  you can't  get past it.

[Yrkoon]

YohkoOhno wrote...

I'd have to disagree that DAO was totally new. I didn't see any adds for the game that did not mention Balder's Gate, a game that all fantasy RPGers knew all too well. They were riding on BG's shoulders, just like DA2 rode on DAO's shoulders.

We were speaking about TV ads,.

Oh, and here I thought we were discussing the marketing in general. 

[astrallite]

Witcher 2 is out, metascores are in the 9s. Let's see how this thing sells.

[YohkoOhno]

Sorry, but it's still a new product. It's not D&D (which is what Bioware was primarily known for before Mass Effect) and you spend more money on any new product. They don't just make these things for the "hard core fans".

[LeBurns]

YohkoOhno wrote...

I'd have to disagree that DAO was totally new. I didn't see any adds for the game that did not mention Balder's Gate, a game that all fantasy RPGers knew all too well. They were riding on BG's shoulders, just like DA2 rode on DAO's shoulders.

We were speaking about TV ads, and I don't believe any of them ever mentioned prior Bioware games. The TV ads were mass market, and you don't mention an over 10 year old product out there.

Bioware is certainly not as strong a brand in the mass consumer market as other game companies are.

Well that being said, I do not recall ever, ever seeing a TV add for DAO.  Did they exist?  And if they did are you certain that "From the makers of Balder's Gate Comes A Brand New Adventure..." wasn't in them?

[YohkoOhno]

Just Google Dragon Age Origins Television Ads. They exist and can be found on YouTube--the ads I think were also on the Dragon Age site. I can't recall ever seeing the word Baldur's Gate being used, though I might be mistaken.

[Yrkoon]

YohkoOhno wrote...

Sorry, but it's still a new product. It's not D&D (which is what Bioware was primarily known for before Mass Effect) and you spend more money on any new product. They don't just make these things for the "hard core fans".

  I'll ask  Again.  Do advertisers charge more for new product ads?

No?  then you don't have a point.   This WAS a discussion about marketing costs, despite your repeated attempts to  move the goalposts.  The fact that Bioware  essentially spent 4 friggin YEARS  marketing  DA:O in some form or another  is a fact, but it still doesn't support your claims, since much of that marketing  did not cost them  a single dime.

[xkg]

Ok guys let's have a look.

All we can get from VGChartz sales for DA:O beyond 10th week - is average sales per week.
No data available for Americas sales for PC.

So this is going to be only for consoles (X360 & PS3) for Americas and EMEAA (Europe etc...)
We have data for 78 weeks but we wont be including first 10 weeks (most sales).

"Total worldwide sales"  -  "First 10 weeks sales"   -   "Japan sales"   =   "68 weeks sales"

X360:
2,054,933  -  1,413,535  -  24,598  = 616,800

PS3:
1,250,532  -  742,358  -  74,518  =  433,656


Let's sum it up now
616,800  +  433,656  =  1,050,456    /     68 weeks  =    15,448 average sales per week

Just for comparison's sake - DA2 last week's sales for consoles in Amercias & EMEAA  =  13,323

[Yrkoon]

LeBurns wrote...

YohkoOhno wrote...

I'd have to disagree that DAO was totally new. I didn't see any adds for the game that did not mention Balder's Gate, a game that all fantasy RPGers knew all too well. They were riding on BG's shoulders, just like DA2 rode on DAO's shoulders.

We were speaking about TV ads, and I don't believe any of them ever mentioned prior Bioware games. The TV ads were mass market, and you don't mention an over 10 year old product out there.

Bioware is certainly not as strong a brand in the mass consumer market as other game companies are.

Well that being said, I do not recall ever, ever seeing a TV add for DAO.  Did they exist?  And if they did are you certain that "From the makers of Balder's Gate Comes A Brand New Adventure..." wasn't in them?

There was an Ad for DA:O.  They took the sacred Ashes trailer and added some different narration to it.  But again, as far as I know, that ad ran  like, twice....   only the last week of October.... and only on Cable.  In other words, not NEARLY as costly as the TV ad for DA2, which ran on network television, and on prime time.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 17 mai 2011 - 06:29 .

[Altima Darkspells]

LeBurns wrote...

Well that being said, I do not recall ever, ever seeing a TV add for DAO.  Did they exist?  And if they did are you certain that "From the makers of Balder's Gate Comes A Brand New Adventure..." wasn't in them?

They had them, and they ran for the longest time.

The ads were a combination of the Sacred Ashes trailer and the This Is The New **** music video.

So, in other words, completely mis-representing game play to basically try to blindside people into buying the game.  Which seeems to be par for the course when it comes to EA.

[astrallite]

http://dragonage.wik...redith_Stannard

http://www.metacriti...user/M_Stannard

Wonder if this person works for Bioware...

On TW2:

"CD Project releases another misogynistic jaunt into the Mary Sue world of
'the witcher.' There is hardly anything of substance to recommend this
train wreck to a discerning connoisseur of RPGs. Every element of its
design can be described as 'embarassingly awkward.' Animation, art
direction, dialogue, writing, combat. It's a list of sad mediocrities as
long as your arm. The fact of the setting
and characters being a shameless copy of Michael **** classic Elric of
Melniboné series aside, the game itself behaves like a confused child.
Does it want to be a brawler with peripheral RPG elements? Or an action
RPG with brawler combat? In either situation the designers have failed
to deliver on both satisfying combat or a compelling story that ever
rises above the juvenile. Look to the masters at BioWare with their
latest RPG epic, Dragon Age 2, for inspiration in your future games, CD
Project. You certainly won't find it making shallow sex simulators based
on plagiarized fantasy novels."

On DA2:

"An absolute triumph in the art of RPG storytelling. By far the most
compelling characters, boldest storytelling, and most enjoyable combat
in any RPG designed to date. Look on and despair, Bethesda, for the RPG of the Year won't be yours
this time. While EA has made a few blunders in the marketing of this
superb game, that does not detract from BioWare's mastery of game
design. I'm a long time fan of RPGs in general and BioWare in particular
as a master of the genre, and this is certainly one of my favourites.
If you enjoy good RPGs, mature stories that don't insult your
intelligence, wonderfully human fleshed-out characters, and engaging
combat, this is the baby for you."

Both reviews posted on release day.

Modifié par astrallite, 17 mai 2011 - 06:35 .

[YohkoOhno]

xkg wrote...
616,800  +  433,656  =  1,050,456    /     68 weeks  =    15,448 average sales per week

Just for comparison's sake - DA2 last week's sales for consoles in Amercias & EMEAA  =  13,323

And that's the first good analysis we have of the data.

The only possible flaw is the average could be based on say, 20,000 in the first 20 weeks and maybe 1000 in the last 20 weeks, but that still is a good average.  

My best bet is that it will average half of DA:O--maybe 7,500 per week when all is said and done.

[Addai]

On another thread, Stanley Woo said that M Stannard person doesn't work for Bioware.

Good thing, since he/ she is kind of an idiot. I don't know much about those books that supposedly were "plagiarized" by Sapkowski, but looking at the wiki on them, the character sounds nothing like Geralt of Rivia. It even talks about the sources that that author used as basis- lol.

Modifié par Addai67, 17 mai 2011 - 06:41 .

[erynnar]

KilrB wrote...

Embrosil wrote...

simonc4175 wrote...

ConnorHawke wrote...

While I certainly appreciate the diverse opinions around here, I think the clear and obvious consensus is staring Bioware in the face.

On the strength of DA:O, people rushed out to buy DA:2. A huge backlash and below AA score clearly communicated that this game simply wasn't as good as the first in some significant ways.

What I hope is not lost on Bioware, is that, the problems with DA:2 cannot be fixed with small tweaks. They made a fundamentally different game. Now they must fundamentally rethink that approach.

The DA2 demo was released weeks before the final game was published.  Everyone had the chance to see the changes which had been made to DA:2.

There is no real excuse for the people who tried the demo to post unconstructive critism.

If people didn't try the demo they only have themselves to blame as that is why is was released so people could see the changes made.

No? And how about fanboys persuading us in EVERY thread that the demo is not the game and that the game will be completely different? Some people have really short memory it seems. 

I did not fell for this, but many people did. Either because they could not believe that the final game could be that bad, or because they believed in Bioware. Whatever the reason I think all of them will think twice next time.

What did you get to do in the demo?

Fight darkspawn.

Darkspawn that did not drop from the sky.

Nothing in the demo pointed to the inexcusable reuse of maps, the severely lacking interaction with your companions, the trash loot system, the dead and unchanging city of Kirkwall, the jarring breaks between acts, the inability to change anything beyond a sentence or two of dialog, or any number of other shortcomings.

So no we do not have "only ourselves to blame."

Thank you! I get tired of, "well if you played the demo you have yourself to blame" card, or the "didn't you play the demo and come on the forums to get spoilers, if you had you'd have known, therefore it's all your own fault" arguments.

[astrallite]

http://www.metacriti.../VuleeHarkonnen

So far every 0 I've seen given on The Witcher 2 on Metacritic gave Dragon Age 2 a 10. Not only that, it's the ONLY TWO GAMES reviewed on their accounts.

The desperation to hijack the game score is getting pretty amusing at this point. And it's still 9.1 overall.

Modifié par astrallite, 17 mai 2011 - 06:47 .

[devSin]

Wonder if this person works for Bioware...

Don't start that nonsense.

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that it's a forum regular here, though.

As for television advertising, go away already. If you care that much, take it to PM. I saw a couple ads for Origins. I saw a couple ads for Dragon Age II. All were a waste of money, so who cares about how many and on which channels?

[Paeyne]

When we talk about things like sales and profit and whether a game is a success or not, the question should be, is it a financial success for whom?

You have to break the purchase price down into disparate chunks.  For a console game, those chunks are Developer (Bioware) 17%, Publisher (EA) 30%, Retailer (Gamestop, etc.) 30%, Manufacturer (Company that actually stamps out the discs and delivers them to stores) 5%, Platform Licensee (Sony, Microsoft) 18%.

So, if we assume that DA2 sold at least one million copies, the breakdown would be something like this.

Retailer $18M Gross.  If they decide to put the game on sale, that comes out of their chunk. They have about $18 to play with before they start losing money unless they negotiate a new pricepoint on future batch purchases.  Overall they are probably happy since any profit from any game is a good thing.

Publisher $18M Gross.  Advertising comes from their chunk.  Advertising is usually 25-50% of develpment costs.  I guarantee EA made a profit and a decent one, even if Bioware didn't.

Manufacturer $3M Gross.  Yes, they made a profit, perhaps not much of one, but disc stamping and distribution companies are like grocery stores, they may only make 15 cents on a can of peas but they sell a lot of peas.

Licensee $10.8M Gross.  Given that the expenses accociated with License support are reasonably low, I can assure you that Sony and Microsoft are happy campers right now.

Developer $10.2M Gross.  I have no idea what Bioware spent to develop DA2 but for a AAA game $18-24M is pretty standard.  I doubt they spent that much given that they had an existing engine and the re-using of assets, but they did have a lot of cut-scene work so $8-12M would not be unreasonable.  If they had sold on the level of DA:O then they would have taken home quite a decent profit.  As it stands at the moment, they are probably just in the realm of breaking even, which is not such a bad thing given that their parent company and everyone else did make a decent proft.  They also gain some extra profit from the computer side as they keep the licensing fee for themselves.

This is all an educated guestimate based on supposition, of course, but I doubt that it is that far from the truth.

So was DA2 a financial success? 

I guess that depends on your definition of success but overall I would have to say yes.


.

Modifié par Paeyne, 17 mai 2011 - 06:59 .

[Travie]

astrallite wrote...

http://www.metacriti.../VuleeHarkonnen

So far every 0 I've seen given on The Witcher 2 on Metacritic gave Dragon Age 2 a 10. Not only that, it's the ONLY TWO GAMES reviewed on their accounts.

The desperation to hijack the game score is getting pretty amusing at this point. And it's still 9.1 overall.

Its pretty easy to tell a few individuals trying to hyjack a score from a large playerbase thats dissapointed by the game.

Thanks for pointing this out.

[erynnar]

astrallite wrote...

http://www.metacriti.../VuleeHarkonnen

So far every 0 I've seen given on The Witcher 2 on Metacritic gave Dragon Age 2 a 10. Not only that, it's the ONLY TWO GAMES reviewed on their accounts.

The desperation to hijack the game score is getting pretty amusing at this point. And it's still 9.1 overall.

Yeah I noticed that too when I was on metacritic.

So xkg...from your figures it seems we can postulate that DAO is indeed selling more than, at week 10, than DA2? If I'm reading that correctly.

[YohkoOhno]

So xkg...from your figures it seems we can postulate that DAO is indeed selling more than, at week 10, than DA2? If I'm reading that correctly.

That's probable, but there's two other factors.

1) The chart goes down each each. All games tend to sell less each week, even if it's a really small amount.

2) The averages are for the entire sales period. But the numbers for the last x weeks are probably lower than when we start. DA:O could be averaging around 7000, for instance these current weeks.

Still, this is sort of troubling for the franchise.

Modifié par YohkoOhno, 17 mai 2011 - 07:21 .

[erynnar]

YohkoOhno wrote...

So xkg...from your figures it seems we can postulate that DAO is indeed selling more than, at week 10, than DA2? If I'm reading that correctly.

That's probable, but there's two other factors.

1) The chart goes down each each. All games tend to sell less each week, even if it's a really small amount.

2) The averages are for the entire sales period. But the numbers for the last x weeks are probably lower than when we start. DA:O could be averaging around 7000, for instance these current weeks.

Still, this is sort of troubling for the franchise.

Thanks Yoko. I prefer when the number smart people help me. I am not a math person. I was just guessing so  wanted a little clarification.

@Ali...I know! I hate that word too. But when the exact same people give TW2 a 0 then go on DA2 and give it a ten, touting DA2 and panning TW2 at the same time? They deserve the name.

[astrallite]

Nine 0s so far on metacritic for TW2.

All 9 gave DA2 a 10