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[csfteeeer]

Deganis76 wrote...



People that actively post on forums represent less than 1% of the gaming population.  They just are the ones who take it most seriously and are the most vocal.

What does that have to do with anything?
this are Sale figures, this isn't limited to the forums.

[Bio-Age]

Deganis76 wrote...



People that actively post on forums represent less than 1% of the gaming population.  They just are the ones who take it most seriously and are the most vocal.

WoW Dude, clueless much.

This thread isn't about the percentage of posters that you pulled out of the air.

Modifié par Bio-Age, 13 juin 2011 - 02:32 .

[MonkeyLungs]

DA:O Ultimate edition has been outselling DA2 for the last 2- 3 weeks that I have been actively checking (for Xbox 360).

[Atardecer]

Honestly, is there any point to this sales stuff? I've played the game. It was crap - I vented and moved on. Let it go. Whatever Bioware decide to do with the series in the future make your own judgements and accept it one way or another. This seems pointless. As pointed out, only Bioware knows how many units have been sold and all this conjecture achieves nothing.

[Deganis76]

Bio-Age wrote...

Deganis76 wrote...



People that actively post on forums represent less than 1% of the gaming population.  They just are the ones who take it most seriously and are the most vocal.

WoW Dude, clueless much.

This thread isn't about the percentage of posters that you pulled out of the air.

Apologies, I did not quote the post: 

Corto81 wrote...

Tantum Dic Verbo wrote...
 If
I were Bioware, I would be looking to expand the fanbase and
marginalize the hardcores as much as possible, so as not to be held
hostage by the loudest minority elements on the internet. .

That "minority" is the core base of fans they got big on.
And that "minority" bought DA:O to make it their most sold product to date.

Yeah, screw them tbh.

I'm
not convinced that a majority of people who enjoyed Origins are
properly reflected by the loudest people posting in the forums.  I'm
talking about the most insular and elitist fans here, the ones who dog
the developers' every step.  I suspect that there are a lot of Bioware
fans who could enjoy a Dragon Age game that isn't indistinguishable from
DA:Origins.

I see a strong current in the Bioware fanbase
similar to the internet Fallout community,.  The same sort of
"glittering gems of hate" are appearing here, with the same misplaced
sense of ownership.  Those sorts of "fans" can cause a lot of trouble. 
Bioware appears to be looking for where the lines are drawn.  What
elements will attract the maximum number of players with different
preferences?  That's what they're trying to hash out right now.

If
DA2 hadn't been badly rushed and had been an excellent example of an
action RPG, some of these fans may have been even bitter than they are
now, because there would be no hope of a return to the "right" kind of
game.

My point is that to successfully market a product, you cannot solely cater your product to the hardcore fan base that regularly posts in forums.  While you shouldn't neglect them, you cannot customize the product to their every whim.

[IanPolaris]

Deganis76 wrote...

My point is that to successfully market a product, you cannot solely cater your product to the hardcore fan base that regularly posts in forums.  While you shouldn't neglect them, you cannot customize the product to their every whim.

Perhaps not, but it's is an even worse mistake to try to "fire" your most hard-core fans as well.  That doesn't mean you have to follow their every whim, but ultimately a product has to be something that your most loyal and hardcore fans are willing to accept.  That's the fundamental problem with DA2.  DA2 counted on having the DAO hardcore fans by it sight unseen (and for the first week they did). while at the same time changing the game to appeal to a new potential audience in such a way that apparently treated the old guard like old tissue paper to be used and discarded.

So what's wrong with this?  People aren't as dumb as some would have you believe, and unless you can pull this off perfectly, all you do is alienate the most loyal "sure sales" audience while at the same time not appealing to enough new customers to make the loss of your most loyal customers worth it.

-Polaris

[Bejos_]

mrcrusty wrote...




Oh well, that's the way things are. Dragon Age 2 imo, is still not a bad game overall. Just well... I don't know, average I guess.

Do I have overly inflated expectations for games? I don't know where descriptors such as "average" come from ... because DA2 is certainly not an "average" game by my standards. It's terrible.

Is DA2 really in the norm for console games? Because ... gonads ... that almost makes me ;,,,,(

Edit: I've played a lot of console games, and very few (very few) have been anywhere as bad. Have I just been lucky in my selections? I really just can't see from where these descriptors are coming.

Modifié par Bejos_, 13 juin 2011 - 07:27 .

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

When put into the context of the greater games market, Dragon Age 2 is not a terrible game. I honestly don't see how it could be considered terrible. But what are some average or terrible games for you?

edit: how long ago since I posted that? I vaguely remember posting it, but I haven't posted in this thread for weeks...

Modifié par mrcrusty, 13 juin 2011 - 11:01 .

[jack_f]

Well well. The much applauded Witcher 2 hasn't even broken 1 mil yet. Goes to show that you can sell a turd with the Bioware logo on it and still make more money than a no-name developer with his labor of love.

[DragonRageGT]

jack_f wrote...

Well well. The much applauded Witcher 2 hasn't even broken 1 mil yet. Goes to show that you can sell a turd with the Bioware logo on it and still make more money than a no-name developer with his labor of love.

Oh, it will, and on PC alone! When it hits the console... RUN.. it will kill'em all!

[Fast Jimmy]

jack_f wrote...

Well well. The much applauded Witcher 2 hasn't even broken 1 mil yet. Goes to show that you can sell a turd with the Bioware logo on it and still make more money than a no-name developer with his labor of love.

The Witcher 2 also was released less than a month ago. The Witcher IP was a relative unknown with the first release in the gaming world, so both the original and the second release are going pretty much off of word of mouth alone.

That being said, instead of people on the forums posting possible slumping sales figures and pointing at Bioware and going "naa-naa-nana-naa-naa" like a bunch of three year olds, take comfort in the fact that every flaw that has been mentioned before in these forums and by reviewers will be under consideration and every future release for this IP will scrutinized heavily before EA signs off on anything that might underperform like DA2 did. While selling 2 mil may sound nice, DA2 was expected to be well on its way of selling 5 mil at this point.

If it makes your own sense of worth feel better to post sales figures that Bioware knows better than us to help you sleep at night, as if you needed a financial reason to say DA2 wasn't something you enjoyed, then, by all means continue to do so. Just realize how childish you look to A) the devs and  the other forumites.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 13 juin 2011 - 11:45 .

[Bejos_]

mrcrusty wrote...

When put into the context of the greater games market, Dragon Age 2 is not a terrible game. I honestly don't see how it could be considered terrible. But what are some average or terrible games for you?

edit: how long ago since I posted that? I vaguely remember posting it, but I haven't posted in this thread for weeks...

Errm, I saw it two or three pages back, so it can't be that long ago.

I've played ME, FF, inFAMOUS ... Persona ... God of War, MGS, Bayonetta ... Okami, Oni, Halo, Assassin's Creed, Mario, Crash Bandicoot, Heretic ... I can't remember the rest at the moment, but I can definitively say (for me, personally) that DA2 is nowhere near as good as most games. Even the gameplay is subpar.

Obviously, this is with its supposed genre-- the RPG-- in mind. But even if you judge it as a JRPG, or an ARPG, or a straight-up action game, it's terrible.

Its closest analogy is probably Prototype, with its "kewl powers", lame story and questionable quality.

If DA2 is standard fare for consoles ...

My face has Hawke's Incredulous Eyebrow Curve right now.

(Basically: I have never played as bad a game, on consoles, as DA2 is, for me. Prototype comes closest. Maybe I've just been really lucky in my selections. I'm certain bad games are out there, I just didn't think they were the norm!)

Modifié par Bejos_, 13 juin 2011 - 01:37 .

[culletron1]

jack_f wrote...

Well well. The much applauded Witcher 2 hasn't even broken 1 mil yet. Goes to show that you can sell a turd with the Bioware logo on it and still make more money than a no-name developer with his labor of love.

Not for long if they keep producing games like DA2

[Deganis76]

IanPolaris wrote...

Deganis76 wrote...

My point is that to successfully market a product, you cannot solely cater your product to the hardcore fan base that regularly posts in forums.  While you shouldn't neglect them, you cannot customize the product to their every whim.

Perhaps not, but it's is an even worse mistake to try to "fire" your most hard-core fans as well.  That doesn't mean you have to follow their every whim, but ultimately a product has to be something that your most loyal and hardcore fans are willing to accept.  That's the fundamental problem with DA2.  DA2 counted on having the DAO hardcore fans by it sight unseen (and for the first week they did). while at the same time changing the game to appeal to a new potential audience in such a way that apparently treated the old guard like old tissue paper to be used and discarded.

So what's wrong with this?  People aren't as dumb as some would have you believe, and unless you can pull this off perfectly, all you do is alienate the most loyal "sure sales" audience while at the same time not appealing to enough new customers to make the loss of your most loyal customers worth it.

-Polaris

I actually agree with you.  While they should certainly pay attention to their hardcore fan base, they cannot cater to their every whim and desire.  And inevitably, there will be some hardcore fans that you will never be able to please.

For the record I consider DA2 to be an imperfect game with some good ideas (good companions, friendship rivalry) with some borderline unforgivable qualities (recycled envrionments, save game import bugs).  But, for the most part, it kept me entertained for the time I spent with it.

[Kilshrek]

Maybe if DA 2 didn't try to change everything in one go things wouldn't have gone so badly for it.

Redesigning just about everything (armour, combat style, darkspawn, barring the elves and Qunari every other redesign was completely over done) succeeded in creating a wonderfully jarring experience for old players, and didn't quite bring in the new players needed to replace the old ones.

In other news Minecraft seems to have sold 2.5 million, and hasn't been "officially" released yet. Not too shabby for a game that looks like 8-bit Mario, for today's market. Definitely no awesome button in that game.

[jcp234]

jack_f wrote...

Well well. The much applauded Witcher 2 hasn't even broken 1 mil yet. Goes to show that you can sell a turd with the Bioware logo on it and still make more money than a no-name developer with his labor of love.

I can't wait until my new PC arrives tomorow and I buy the Witcher 2, so I can tell you how much better than DA2 it is!!! I'm hoping like hell it's a really good game based on all the positive word of mouth flying around the internet.

I purchased Dragon Age 2 for my PS3...it's one of the few games I purchased without reading reviews first. I will not make the same mistake for Mass Effect 3, or Dragon Age 3.

Let me just say...I played as a mage and based on my single playthrough...mages aren't who we should be afraid of...it's those damn rogues...the rogues in the game appear to be all powerful and need to be destroyed! Love how my mage just stands there twirling his wood while rogues are disappearing across the screen all willy nilly kickin my @ss. 

[Bejos_]

So, with everyone debating DA2 sales, and the accuracy of the data, I thought I'd post this little nugget:

http://www.rpgcodex....r=asc&start=125

VGCharts would seem to have, at most, a 10% margin of error. That means about 100 000 sales more or less for DA2, which means that, yes, it's a commercial failure.

Modifié par Bejos_, 14 juin 2011 - 03:57 .

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

Bejos_ wrote...

So, with everyone debating DA2 sales, and the accuracy of the data, I thought I'd post this little nugget:

http://www.rpgcodex....r=asc&start=125

VGCharts would seem to have, at most, a 10% margin of error. That means about 100 000 sales more or less for DA2, which means that, yes, it's a commercial failure.

Lol you ain't going to be posting much about RPGCodex here and expect it to stick. Lots and lots of people here equate RPGCodex with 4chan. (As in, it was 4chan and RPGCodex that caused DA 2's metacritic score to be so low and not the game's mixed reception)



The 10% figure is a hypothetical, not a solid VGChartz margin of error. I think you're fighting a losing battle if you're trying to defend the accuracy of VGChartz actual sales numbers. At best, you could claim that VGChartz is good at recording sales trends for games. I think it's fair to use VGChartz as a source that show that DA 2 sold significantly less than DAO, but I wouldn't make judgements on the exact amount of sales that DA 2 has. Realistically, the sales could be anywhere from 1.2 million to 2 million.

I personally think it's somewhere in the 1.5 million region, but I'd be very shaky at using VGChartz as a reliable source for accurate numbers, despite the fact that it's close to what I'd imagine.

On the other hand, we don't have much else to go on... so I guess it's not bad, so long as people recognise it won't be a wholly reliable or wholly accurate statistic.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 14 juin 2011 - 07:36 .

[Bejos_]

mrcrusty wrote...

Bejos_ wrote...

So, with everyone debating DA2 sales, and the accuracy of the data, I thought I'd post this little nugget:

http://www.rpgcodex....r=asc&start=125

VGCharts would seem to have, at most, a 10% margin of error. That means about 100 000 sales more or less for DA2, which means that, yes, it's a commercial failure.

Lol you ain't going to be posting much about RPGCodex here and expect it to stick. Lots and lots of people here equate RPGCodex with 4chan. (As in, it was 4chan and RPGCodex that caused DA 2's metacritic score to be so low and not the game's mixed reception)

[...]

Yes, I know, "RPGCodex is the devil because they deride my toys" and "RPGCodex and 4Chan are responsible for all the hate" (kudos to Bioware for reading up on propaganda tactics, I guess), but:

The thread actually quotes VGCharts personnel on how they come up with their figures.

I don't expect that people who've already decided to disregard VGCharts will change their mind, but for those who are curious as to their methods-- go and read.

Personally, I think they're mostly in the right ballpark. I pick 1.65 million sales as my figure, as of now.


Question: MrCrusty, does this mean I should avoid linking NeoGaf, too-- the forum where a lot of games-industry people go to give and receive opinions, and to talk about the games industry in general?

Modifié par Bejos_, 14 juin 2011 - 09:00 .

[alex90c]

Why actually is it that it's so hard to find accurate sales figures for DA2?

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

@Bejos: Of course not. I'm just saying be wary about using VGChartz as an accurate statistic when it comes to predicting sales numbers. That's all. Some people in the debate tend to look at VGChartz as actual proof of their arguments, which I find a little dubious. An example to help highlight a point, perhaps. But there are people who tout VGChartz as being rock solid accurate if it helps prove their arguments, as opposed to looking at the data lightly and instead, look at the trends rather than exact numbers.

@alex90c: It's difficult to find sales figures for just about any game if the developer/publisher is not willing to publish the numbers publicly. Who else would know the exact sales figures for any given game?

Modifié par mrcrusty, 14 juin 2011 - 10:25 .

[alex90c]

@alex90c: It's difficult to find sales figures for just about any game if the developer/publisher is not willing to publish the numbers publicly. Who else would know the exact sales figures for any given game?

Oh I don't know, I was just wondering why

Modifié par alex90c, 14 juin 2011 - 11:43 .

[Ixalmaris]

jack_f wrote...

Well well. The much applauded Witcher 2 hasn't even broken 1 mil yet. Goes to show that you can sell a turd with the Bioware logo on it and still make more money than a no-name developer with his labor of love.

The much applauded Witcher 2 has outsold DA2 on the PC in its 2nd week,
Wait till it is released on the XBox.

Although it is strange.
DA2 mostly sells in the US while Witcher 2 sells in Europe.
That gives you something to think about the type of gamers there. Apparently americans like "teh awesome button!!!!"

Modifié par Ixalmaris, 14 juin 2011 - 05:10 .

[Bejos_]

mrcrusty wrote...

@Bejos: Of course not. I'm just saying be wary about using VGChartz as an accurate statistic when it comes to predicting sales numbers. That's all. Some people in the debate tend to look at VGChartz as actual proof of their arguments, which I find a little dubious. An example to help highlight a point, perhaps. But there are people who tout VGChartz as being rock solid accurate if it helps prove their arguments, as opposed to looking at the data lightly and instead, look at the trends rather than exact numbers.

Okay. Was just wondering how open-minded people are to information from different sources.

[Lord of Locusts]

Hey, does anyone have reliable sales figures for the PC editions of DA:O and DA2?