1033 réponses à ce sujet

[Everwarden]

Persephone wrote...

Everwarden wrote...

Valcutio wrote...

I just hope they learn from this. Gamers aren't as stupid as they assumed.

I tell myself that, but then I see people more than happy to pay nine dollars for an item pack DLC and I wonder.

Last time I checked, the DLC goes for five bucks. I didn't buy it, mind you. Where's the nine bucks DLC?

Oh, you're right. I heard someone call it 'nine bucks', but never actually checked the store section to verify it. My bad.

[erynnar]

Corto81 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

but I'd say we're well aware of how DA2 is selling and how much of a success or failure that is for our company and Dragon Age's future potential. Whether the lesson we've learned is the one you think it should be will remain to be seen, I guess. Hopefully so.

Fair enough.

And don't take it as bashing, but rather as compliment... DA2 wasn't anything near the products are people used to seeing from BW.

You guys set the bar high, with immersive RPGs, excellent writing, witty dialogues, complex characters etc.

DA2 doesn't live up to it.
And I hope you realize that, cos otherwise, you're selling yourselves short.
You did do and you can do MUCH better.

This^  I do hope you all don't take what I say as bashing. Because I don't wish ill on anyone at BioWare. I love what you have given us. And you all have provided me with some kickass entertainment and hours of enjoyment. You all did set the bar high, you spoiled us.  I see the epic greatness DA2 could have been. And I have your past works to know, that you all can do it again. You rock just that hard.

[Dial_595]

Wittand25 wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

I don't think anyone was prepared for the extent of reuse though. When they said you visit the same cave it was put down to visiting the same cave in each act. Not so much visiting the same cave each time.  

Really ? Must have gotten lost in translation then, since the magazines even had screenshots to prove that areas get reused regularly.
In fact Gamestar wrote "In manchen Gebieten ist die Grafik hässlich. Da stört es doppelt, dass uns das Programm durch die immer gleichen Klonkeller und -Höhlen schickt. Ein Zeichen für the kurze Produktionszeit des Spiels."
Translation: " Some areas have rather ugly graphics. This makes the fact that the program sends you to the always same cloned cellars and caves twice as annoying. A sign for the short production time of the game."

So I was prepared for the game, and frankly the reuse of areas is much less annoying that I feared after reading the review.

Because this would've helped me as a non-german non-native english speaker how exactly?

Corto81 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

That and the fact that Origins also sold awesomely because it was an awesome game.

Very true. And it sold awesomely as well.

You guys didn't need to monitor it and explain stuff, the game did most of the talking for itself (IMO).
Excellent
reviews and customer/fans loving it made it sell very good much longer
than an average AAA game, which generally peak very early... DA:O kept
selling at a good rate for a while.

Without getting too much into
why you took a different approach to DAII, I do hope the eventual 3rd
game will be more akin to the original game and I think that would tell
in the sales.

CoD people are still gonna play CoD, not DA2.
Uncharted/AC people are still gonna play their games, not DA2.
The problem is... If the RPG people don't play DA2 cos the game doesn't feel right to them... Sales drop.
(and
that's the biggest problem with DA2 IMO... It will never appeal enough
to "other genre" people, and it steps away enough from the RPG core to
alienate a LOT of the RPG fans - not all, not generalizing, but
obviously a lot)

In the end, I don't think you should make excuses for DA:O being a huge hit.
You
guys made it, and it was a masterpiece of "old-school" RPGs... Which
still have a huge fan base throughout the world - as shown by high sales
for a lot of RPG titles, single player or MMO.

Agree about the last part here. Don't make excuses for making a great game.

IMO DA2 isn't. And I picked up ME2 right after, which was like a blow to the stomach, because that game is GOOD (regardless of your personal taste). Weren't even any reused areas in it from what I can tell. Sure I could moan and gripe about the low-res textures on the vehicle missions, but that doesn't really matter because as a stand-alone product it was really great and everything DA2 wasn't but which I sorely wanted it to be. And I'm not talking about specific features as opposed to the fact that the game was well-conceived, polished and coherent throughout, which DA2 definitively wasn't.

But you get all of these strange discussions going on here... I completely agree with the guys over at Apple who said that user-innovation is laughable, but the fact remains that there must've been some pretty strong or clear indications from testing or analysis that should've suggested that whatever anyone wanted this game to be (publisher or developer) it most certainly wasn't. The thought that this would've been some form of action-rpg that could go mainstream has, to me personally, never existed beyond a concept in the minds of a group of people involved in its development and/or publishing.

If that's what the goal was, that is. Dark Messiah of Might & Magic is an excellent blend of RPG and action, and to some extent so is the Thief series of games. Whatever concept I glimpsed from interviews sounded thrilling - I don't have any particular love for any certain type of genre or sub-genre within RPGs or action games, but the vision that was promised feels like it got hacked up and left scattered by the road - and as most people with project management experience will tell you - a compromised vision often leads to an inferior result, it's even in the basic university literature on the subject (although said with a lot more pretty words)!

I'm pretty much willing to bet my money on that whatever the concept and vision was which the developers and publishers put forward in interviews and sneak-previews, the end result just isn't it.



And BTW - the books are really great. Seriously. I read alot of that pulp warhammer literature the Black Library keeps publishing (so I have a pretty biased view of fiction writing within a setting from another medium), and colour me surprised when I discovered that these books were actually good, gripping and emotional.

Modifié par Dial_595, 28 avril 2011 - 06:39 .

[Persephone]

Everwarden wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
Despite the competition, it's simply a fact that games receive a huge boost during the Christmas season.

Entirely true. It is also true that Dragon Age 2 rode the momentum of a far, far superior game and sold about half a million copies due to that fact alone.

I wouldn't say that. There was a huge marketing campaign as well. I know people who first bought DAII based on that and then bought DAO as well because they enjoyed DAII so much. Sales and Marketing never relies on reputation fully and it did not do so here either.

As for which game is superior...there is no dogma stating which game is superior to another. Lemme dig up a fave franchise of mine (Now dead because so called fans wanted to make Sierra see "where they went wrong after releasing the far, far superior GK2) : The Gabriel Knight Series changed dramatically from game to game. GK1 was a standard 2D P&C Adventure. GK2 was the most polished FMV ever made. GK3 was a mish mash of 2&3D P&C. To this day the GK fans are debating which of the three deserves the crown. See what I mean?

[Barbosa]

Problem here and in the long term is not the lack of sales/fiasco of this "game",.I see it as a serious breakaway from their traditional customer base and it won't be easy to get this people back. many will no longer rush and buy antyhing with the Bioware logo.

[Gotholhorakh]

Corto81 wrote...

CoD people are still gonna play CoD, not DA2.
Uncharted/AC people are still gonna play their games, not DA2.
The problem is... If the RPG people don't play DA2 cos the game doesn't feel right to them... Sales drop.
(and that's the biggest problem with DA2 IMO... It will never appeal enough to "other genre" people, and it steps away enough from the RPG core to alienate a LOT of the RPG fans - not all, not generalizing, but obviously a lot)

In the end, I don't think you should make excuses for DA:O being a huge hit.
You guys made it, and it was a masterpiece of "old-school" RPGs... Which still have a huge fan base throughout the world - as shown by high sales for a lot of RPG titles, single player or MMO.

Can I just say that while I agree with pretty much every other point you made including the "alienating RPG fans when you're trying to make RPG games" (I firmly believe that the game, if it's looking to bring people in, needs to have a superset of the new stuff AND the sort of stuff the existing fanbase likes) - we need to be careful of this "FPS people"/"RPG people" fallacy.

I, and most people I know who game, play both FPS and RPG titles. The notion of exclusivity is a real logical fallacy and forms the basis of many a silly argument.

If there's a reason I wouldn't buy a game that did crossover badly, it's one of: it ends up being a rubbish RPG or FPS, or it just isn't fun.

Not because I dislike FPS or RPG, but because FPS x does FPS better, action adventure y does action adventure better and RPG z does RPG better.

None of that necessarily matters though, because the main thing is doing it well. In design, painting, music, writing etc. it's understood (there is many an axiom along these lines) that you follow the rules, always follow the rules but it's the people who can break them and get away with it that have the true genius.

Computer games are no exception - look at FO3, it breaks more rules for me than I care to name (it's not a "proper" fallout game, it's not a "proper" RPG, it's not a great shooter), but you know what? It's an epic, amazing game that whether I enjoy playing it or not I just have to doff my cap to.

So ignoring the FPS players vs. RPG players thing, I in large part agree with you. Certainly dropping your existing fanbase seems pretty much stupid. Is it, though?

Problem is, you aim at consoles for the body of your sales and you shift lots of units, so the real benchmark will be "does this work on consoles". I'm not sure that has sunk in with people who don't play these games on consoles yet.

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 28 avril 2011 - 06:42 .

[Ser-Michael]

Here's my thought about DA:O and DA2.

+ = good things when talking about sales
- = bad things when talking about sales


DAO

+ Released near christmas = More sales
+ 5(?) year developement time (Pretty rare in games nowadays, imo a game CANT be bad if it has been worked on for 5 years....)
+ "Spiritual succesor to Baldurs Gate"
+Excellent scores from many major gaming websites and magazines.

Cant think of any negatives regarding sales...

DA2

+Is the "sequel" to DAO. THIS is the thing that boost the sales the most, I think. How much would DA2 sell if DAO wouldnt have existed?

- Mixed reviews.
-Short developement time

I'm quite sure sales will drop for Dragon Age 2 now that people can read more reviews (player reviews, as I prefer), and find out about the horrible things about the game.

[HanabPacal]

David Gaider wrote...

Siradix wrote...
Is Gaider trying to make us compare it to Awakening? They were both released March.

I'm just saying that if one is looking for data to serve as proof of anything other than confirmation bias, you might want to take more factors into account. I recognize that some folks are going to take any statement by a developer that isn't a mea culpa as some kind of "denial of the truth", but I'd say we're well aware of how DA2 is selling and how much of a success or failure that is for our company and Dragon Age's future potential. Whether the lesson we've learned is the one you think it should be will remain to be seen, I guess. Hopefully so.

David,
 
While the bolded section is a very good point it should also apply to the folks that like/love DA2 as well as to any Bioware/EA employee that interacts with customers and/or makes public statements.  Because for every reaction on one side of this argument (in this case “argument” is referring to all aspects of the various ongoing debates of those who like the game versus those who do not) which can be attributed to something like “confirmation bias” where people cling to any single tidbit that they believe is the smoking gun of justification, there is an equal reaction happening on the opposite side of the argument.  In other words, some representatives from both sides of the argument are only using what supports their position and dismissing anything that does not.  But again, this is happening in equal doses on both sides – and most importantly this only applies to a certain number of people on each side of the issue and not to either group as whole as it has been suggested/alluded to a number of times.  Also, up to this point, Bioware/EA employees have thus far only been willing to address the happenings on the ‘don’t like DA2’ side, which is a real problem.  I understand why it’s happening, but it’s still a problem; a potentially dangerous long-term problem at that.
 
Where this situation really hits rock bottom though, are the times when any Bioware/EA employee latches onto a single idea themselves and then perpetuates that idea as a theory/accusation (“confirmation bias”, “people can’t handle change”, etc.) in order to generalize all those folks who don’t like the game (for whatever reason or reasons) into a nice, neat little package of dysfunction.  In effect, those representatives (yourself included) create sweeping generalizations that show some shared flaw in the respective characters or personalities of those who don’t like the game, which serves to mitigate any sense that the critique leveled against the game is, in any way, real.  And, since doing that not only dismisses said critique as a product of ridiculousness, and the people making it, but also ‘solidifies’ (at least in their minds) the fact that the people who like the game were ‘right’ all along, it supplies ready made ‘confirmation bias’ for those people who do like the game.  An interesting little web that is.
 
I just don’t know.  Perhaps you (and other company representatives) haven’t meant for some of your statements to come off as qualitative generalizations of people, but they most certainly have.  Surely you can see that there is a better way to approach/broach these situations other than leveling completely baseless, generalized accusations that only serve to insult and incite.  Surely you can also see that this type of thing is providing ‘sound bites’ to some of the most ardent defenders of the game, who are then liberally echoing these sentiments around the forum where they are latched onto with a mob mentality so that they become ‘reality’.  They are adopted as the truth and further damage any chance of real dialogue taking place.  Take a look around the forum now and you’ll see a number of those ardent supporters already perpetuating “confirmation bias” a number of times as the new catch-all excuse, and it’s only been a few hours since Stanley’s post.
 
Now, David, I want to believe that those of who have made such statements didn’t mean for them to be processed and perpetuated in this manner but I haven’t seen anything that would point to the contrary.  I don’t expect ‘mea culpas’ or anything given out to compensate disgruntled fans.  However, what I also don’t expect are Bioware/EA employees leveling accusations and perpetuating absurd generalizations about those who don’t like the product.  What I do expect is professional neutrality towards all fans/customers and an effort to truly keep the fans on opposing side of the argument from each other’s throats.  This could have been done without damaging any PR aspects and would have, in the long run, solidified more customer confidence in Bioware/EA.
 
I’m not trying to bust your low-hangers here.  But maybe, just maybe, there is at least a seed of an idea that is worth some consideration in what I wrote?   
 
 
 

Modifié par HanabPacal, 28 avril 2011 - 06:51 .

[Wittand25]

Dial_595 wrote...

Wittand25 wrote...
Really ? Must have gotten lost in translation then, since the magazines even had screenshots to prove that areas get reused regularly.
In fact Gamestar wrote "In manchen Gebieten ist die Grafik hässlich. Da stört es doppelt, dass uns das Programm durch die immer gleichen Klonkeller und -Höhlen schickt. Ein Zeichen für the kurze Produktionszeit des Spiels."
Translation: " Some areas have rather ugly graphics. This makes the fact that the program sends you to the always same cloned cellars and caves twice as annoying. A sign for the short production time of the game."

So I was prepared for the game, and frankly the reuse of areas is much less annoying that I feared after reading the review.

Because this would've helped me as a non-german non-native english speaker how exactly?

So you are saying that there are no trustworthy game reviewers writing in a language you do understand ?
I only brought this up because those not satisfied with DA2 claim that they were tricked and could not know what DA2 will be like and I like to point out that this is simply not true. Since unlike other games  there were reviews pointing out negative sides of DA2 before the release and if they by a game blindly even though a demo and reviews were available, it is solely their own fault if they are not satisfied with their purchase.

[Everwarden]

Persephone wrote...

As for which game is superior...there is no dogma stating which game is superior to another.

I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree, here. Sure, no official religious text states that Star Wars: Episode I is a horrible stain upon the franchise (yes, I love using that example), but it so clearly is. Dragon Age 2 is not quite -that- awful, but it's still a pretty big stinker in the eyes of most fans. 

[orbit991]

Here's my million dollar question. What does Bioware think about those who bought the first game? Did a couple million of them dislike the first so much as not to buy the second? Or did they dislike what they have heard about the second? Whatever Biowares perception is on this, is what may decide how 3 turns out.

As far as the Christmas thing, this is a sequel and not a brand new ip, so it would have less of an impact, never mind that even after Christmas it sold better then the 5th week on DA2.(though that could be from the higher christmas sales).
There are indeed many variables pro and against.

Modifié par orbit991, 28 avril 2011 - 06:58 .

[Dial_595]

Wittand25 wrote...

Dial_595 wrote...

Wittand25 wrote...
Really ? Must have gotten lost in translation then, since the magazines even had screenshots to prove that areas get reused regularly.
In fact Gamestar wrote "In manchen Gebieten ist die Grafik hässlich. Da stört es doppelt, dass uns das Programm durch die immer gleichen Klonkeller und -Höhlen schickt. Ein Zeichen für the kurze Produktionszeit des Spiels."
Translation: " Some areas have rather ugly graphics. This makes the fact that the program sends you to the always same cloned cellars and caves twice as annoying. A sign for the short production time of the game."

So I was prepared for the game, and frankly the reuse of areas is much less annoying that I feared after reading the review.

Because this would've helped me as a non-german non-native english speaker how exactly?

So you are saying that there are no trustworthy game reviewers writing in a language you do understand ?
I only brought this up because those not satisfied with DA2 claim that they were tricked and could not know what DA2 will be like and I like to point out that this is simply not true. Since unlike other games  there were reviews pointing out negative sides of DA2 before the release and if they by a game blindly even though a demo and reviews were available, it is solely their own fault if they are not satisfied with their purchase.

I'm saying that no, to the best of my knowledge there was no truthful source I could've used prior to collecting my pre-ordered copy of the game and I don't believe I have any obligation to find one either. I would like that in a better world, game reviewers were actually truthful, but sadly that isn't the case.

And the demo hardly showed all the bad sides of the game.

And I reserve the right to feel tricked and not recommend this game, just like I would've if I'd seen a bad movie. And sure it's my own fault, partly. But that doesn't stop me from stating my opinion about just how bad I think it was. Not that I'd expect to get or want my money back ro something silly like that. But it was a really bad gaming experience to me, and yes, I feel cheated out of a good experience because I don't believe there to be any objective truthful sources available prior to release, just like I don't believe what I read in the news every day since whenever a subject I'm familiar with is in there, it's usually full of all sorts of factual errors and sometimes even downright lies.

Pretty much like the 94% score from PC Gamer UK is a lie...

[Johnny20]

Wow. Christmas or no. That is something.

[Gotholhorakh]

HanabPacal wrote...

Where this situation really hits rock bottom though, are the times when any Bioware/EA employee latches onto a single idea themselves and then perpetuates that idea as a theory/accusation (“confirmation bias”, “people can’t handle change”, etc.) in order to generalize all those folks who don’t like the game (for whatever reason or reasons) into a nice, neat little package of dysfunction.
 
 

Indeed.

There are many, MANY perfectly nice longstanding BioWare fans who are being characterised as idiots.

That's the bit that's irritated me.

I'd reconciled myself with the fact that I didn't like the game, and with the expense of buynig it as "chalking one up to supporting BioWare" on the basis that I won't like everything ever.

I'm not one of your Flat Earth Society that has always cropped up whenever anything, ever gets changed and moans the hell out of the place, and you know what? This community dissatisfaction is more widespread than that, and you, the developers, the publishers, the big fans of the game and I, we all flipping well know it.

The failure to acknowledge people, deal with feedback and the big issues raised in any constructive way is one thing (and I could potentially understand not "apologising" for a product), but to then characterise people who raise issues as idiots or dysfunctional in some way somes across frankly, as contemptuous.

Feeling like you're held in contempt by someone who's got your money and left you dissatisfied with their product frankly sucks, and it makes people angry.

As a relevant aside from my own experience: I used to do a (horrible) job where I had to ascertain who was lying in adversarial situations and you know what? The people who were hiding something were very often the people who would write off anyone who disagreed with them as mad/stupid/on drugs/whatever reason you could want to assume they're biased or wrong.

When someone tells you that lots of other people are lying, mad, biased or stupid for criticising them, and gives you reasons in advance to dismiss any arguments those people put forward (like "confirmation bias") you should smell a rat, and scrutinise the person doing that.

They may be trying to subvert the process of you making up your own mind.

Rebecca Black likes DA2 wrote...

I'd be sad if I wasn't laughing so hard.
...

Ouch.

[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie]

I know what you mean, but I'm not laughing.

I don't want to see BioWare, the best game developer on the planet, doing badly.

I don't want to see them taking flak and the community in strife,

I don't want them to make games I hate.

I don't want our concerns to be dismissed shabbily.

I don't want to be looking down the barrel of BioWare throwing their hands in the air and going all out to make Fable-like games for consoles, because they want money and can't be bothered with hassle.

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 28 avril 2011 - 07:27 .

[erynnar]

Gotholhorakh wrote...

HanabPacal wrote...

Where this situation really hits rock bottom though, are the times when any Bioware/EA employee latches onto a single idea themselves and then perpetuates that idea as a theory/accusation (“confirmation bias”, “people can’t handle change”, etc.) in order to generalize all those folks who don’t like the game (for whatever reason or reasons) into a nice, neat little package of dysfunction.
 
 

Indeed.

There are many, MANY perfectly nice longstanding BioWare fans who are being characterised as idiots.

That's the bit that's irritated me.

I'd reconciled myself with the fact that I didn't like the game, and with the expense of buynig it as "chalking one up to supporting BioWare" on the basis that I won't like everything ever.

I'm not one of your Flat Earth Society that has always cropped up whenever anything, ever gets changed and moans the hell out of the place, and you know what? This community dissatisfaction is more widespread than that, and you, the developers, the publishers, the big fans of the game and I, we all flipping well know it.

The failure to acknowledge people, deal with feedback and the big issues raised in any constructive way is one thing (and I could potentially understand not "apologising" for a product), but to then characterise people who raise issues as idiots or dysfunctional in some way somes across frankly, as contemptuous.

Feeling like you're held in contempt by someone who's got your money and left you dissatisfied with their product frankly sucks, and it makes people angry.

As a relevant aside from my own experience: I used to do a (horrible) job where I had to ascertain who was lying in adversarial situations and you know what? The people who were hiding something were very often the people who would write off anyone who disagreed with them as mad/stupid/on drugs/whatever reason you could want to assume they're biased or wrong.

When someone tells you that lots of other people are lying, mad, biased or stupid for criticising them, and give you reasons in advance to dismiss any arguments those people put forward (like "confirmation bias") you should smell a rat, and scrutinise the person doing that.

Rebecca Black likes DA2 wrote...

I'd be sad if I wasn't laughing so hard.
...

Ouch.

[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie]

I know what you mean, but I'm not laughing.

I don't want to see BioWare, the best game developer on the planet, doing badly.

I don't want to see them taking flak and the community in strife,

I don't want them to make games I hate.

I don't want our concerns to be dismissed shabbily.

I don't want to be looking down the barrel of BioWare throwing their hands in the air and going all out to make Fable-like games for consoles, because they want money and can't be bothered with hassle.

I agree, and especially with the list at the end.  Your old job must have sucked.

[dheer]

I think sales are largely overblown when using it in an argument both for and against. There have been plenty of great games that didn't sell and terrible games that did. I find it interesting to look at overall sales trends, however.

Modifié par dheer, 28 avril 2011 - 07:36 .

[Elhanan]

SirShreK wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

More from elsewhere:

http://gamasutra.com...llion_in_Q1.php

So...

105k units on steam . Thanks!

You're welcome! Another 6.3 million in the DA2/Bioware coffers atop all sales for all games gives me a smile, too!

[HanabPacal]

Gotholhorakh wrote...

[Indeed.

There are many, MANY perfectly nice longstanding BioWare fans who are being characterised as idiots.

That's the bit that's irritated me.

I'd reconciled myself with the fact that I didn't like the game, and with the expense of buynig it as "chalking one up to supporting BioWare" on the basis that I won't like everything ever.

I'm not one of your Flat Earth Society that has always cropped up whenever [i]anything[/i], ever gets changed and moans the hell out of the place, and you know what? This community dissatisfaction is more widespread than that, and you, the developers, the publishers, the big fans of the game and I, we all flipping well know it.

The failure to acknowledge people, deal with feedback and the big issues raised in any constructive way is one thing (and I could potentially understand not "apologising" for a product), but to then characterise people who raise issues as idiots or dysfunctional in some way somes across frankly, as contemptuous.

Feeling like you're held in contempt by someone who's got your money and left you dissatisfied with their product frankly sucks, and it makes people angry.

As a relevant aside from my own experience: I used to do a (horrible) job where I had to ascertain who was lying in adversarial situations and you know what? The people who were hiding something were very often the people who would write off anyone who disagreed with them as mad/stupid/on drugs/whatever reason you could want to assume they're biased or wrong.

When someone tells you that lots of other people are lying, mad, biased or stupid for criticising them, and gives you reasons in advance to dismiss any arguments those people put forward (like "confirmation bias") you should smell a rat, and scrutinise the person doing that.

They may be trying to subvert the process of you making up your own mind.

Rebecca Black likes DA2 wrote...

I'd be sad if I wasn't laughing so hard.
...

Ouch.

../../../images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png

I know what you mean, but I'm not laughing.

I don't want to see BioWare, the best game developer on the planet, doing badly.

I don't want to see them taking flak and the community in strife,

I don't want them to make games I hate.

I don't want our concerns to be dismissed shabbily.

I don't want to be looking down the barrel of BioWare throwing their hands in the air and going all out to make Fable-like games for consoles, because they want money and can't be bothered with hassle.

Exactly.  Exactly.  Exactly.
 
I understand that they don’t want to fully own up to the flaws of the product at this time, although I don’t think that the average gamer is being fooled by this outdated marketing ploy of pretending everything is great.  However, I don’t understand how they could possibly think that casting aspersions through generalizing accusations on to a large percentage of the Dragon Age fan base could, or ever would, be any way helpful or profitable. 
 
I’m with you on the Flat Earth society as well.  I haven’t made any judgmental comments on the game and merely decided to adopt a wait and see attitude from this point on.  Or at least I had before more and more comments from Bioware/EA representatives had come to my attention.  Now, I’m not sure if I will buy from them again???  I honestly don’t know, because this situation represents so much of what is wrong with the attitudes of ‘big businesses’. 
 
Like you said, some of what the Bioware/EA representatives have put forth has seemed downright contemptuous.  And that attitude doesn’t just extend to the most vociferously outraged anti-DA2 people on the forum but, in good generalization tradition, to everyone that doesn’t like the game, including us. 
 
That job of yours must have been incredibly stressful.  But, I know exactly what you’re talking about.  The person that is hiding the most assumes that everyone else is as well, at least that seems to be the axiom.

[Everwarden]

Maverick827 wrote...
You first complained that DA2 was "dumbed down for the masses," claiming this to be the source of the game's initial success. You complained that BioWare "sold out," pandering to the larger market and compromising their artistic integrity in the process. You said that sales figures didn't matter because, at the core, BioWare had failed to produce a quality product.

I never said that. Revenue is all that matters, especially long-term revenue. I don't think that abandoning a loyal audience for one that isn't interested in your genre is the way to make long-term revenue. Sales have vindicated that opinion. 

Now that the numbers are on your side, however, suddenly they matter. Suddenly they are a basis on which BioWare should make decisions.

As previously stated, numbers always mattered. Bioware tried to lure in CoD players, failed, and lost some of their base in the process. Hopefully they will try to get some of their base back with Dragon Age 3 instead of reaching out for people who aren't interested in their genre. Unlikely, but possible. 

Though I'll be honest, Dragon Age no longer has a stake in the survival of Bioware. The Old Republic is what will decide whether or not Bioware lives, and.. well, I think that going up against the giant, galumphing elephant that is World of Warcraft isn't going to end well for them. It never has for other MMOs. 

You are all children.

If you say so.

[jack_f]

David Gaider wrote...
Origins also sold awesomely because it was an awesome game.

Unlike DA2, you mean? interesting.

[Everwarden]

jack_f wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
Origins also sold awesomely because it was an awesome game.

Unlike DA2, you mean? interesting.

That was a slam dunk of epic win. I award you +10 internets.

[Mecher3k]

David Gaider wrote...

Not to suggest anything beyond this, but if one is going to compare the sales of the two games one might also wish to take into account the fact that Origins was released shortly before Christmas. Beyond that, whatever extrapolations you wish to make are up to you.

Which actually works AGAINST DA2.

DA:O was released around the same time as multiple already established big name games and yet STILL did great.

DA2 had.... uh.... Portal 2 over a month later to compete against. Yea.....

[Viyu]

David Gaider wrote...

Not to suggest anything beyond this, but if one is going to compare the sales of the two games one might also wish to take into account the fact that Origins was released shortly before Christmas. Beyond that, whatever extrapolations you wish to make are up to you.

*sighs* I've said this once and I will say it again. But mediocre games tend to sell well due to the hype of their well-recieved predecessors. I've used SEGA's Sonic Adventure series as a classic example. So basically, even if the sales for this game would've been better if released during Christmas, that doesn't mean this game was well done by a long shot. The reprocussions of this game in terms of its sales will probably be better reflected in DA3, should it be released at Christmas like Origins.

That said, if it had been released during Christmas THIS year it would've been a good risk or a disaster since you guys are releasing ME3 around that time, if I remember correctly. Meaning that the titles could potentially compete with each other amongst buyers in this economy. But come Christmas time, I doubt sales will pick up dramatically for this game due to the incredibly negative feedback shattering the unwarranted hype it was given. I am sure that when people are pressed up against the wall to choose after all they're going to learn about it, they'll go for Mass Effect 3.

Modifié par Viyu, 28 avril 2011 - 08:05 .

[Apollo Starflare]

Cybermortis wrote...

Apollo Starflare wrote...
Except trolls in general (not just 4chan) have long since made metacritic user scores pointless for almost any game, not just DA2.

While employee's of gaming companies posting perfect scores for their companies games is, I assume, perfectly acceptable....

The low/lower scores for DA2 (certainly compared to DAO) appear on all user review sites - from Amazon to the Internet Movie Database.

Nope! Just further reason not to trust user reviews? Seriously, there are much better ways to detirmine whether a game is 'for you' than a score heavily affected by the undeniable and often large amount of 'silly' votes people make. For example it can happen due to the 'console war' with a PS3/Xbox exclusive or with Mario Sunshine because some Gamers were angry at it for getting higher scores than Gears of Duty 5: 2012 or whatever.

If you really think the user score on Metacritic accurately reflects the quality of Dragon Age 2 then you are both an incredibly harsh critic and probably have your judgement impaired by some bias. Even taking into account all the criticisms of the game I have seen I can't see how you objectively score the game below a 6 and maintain credability.

[DraCZeQQ]

I think that DA2 is Awesome! And its really sad that other people cant see it ...