135 réponses à ce sujet

[Mr.House]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I have a serious answer:

Hawke's relationship with Merrill sets off a number of alarm bells for me. She feels young, inexperienced, and in tremendous need of affection. That's before you take into account she's a destitute elf cut off from her people and in a strange, hostile city while Hawke is rich, powerful, and human.

It's not a relationship of equals.

Also the romance could be considred taboo since many Dalish elfs view humans as, in a poltite word, lesser. So a Dalish elf, who used to be the Keepers first is a relonship with a human brings in alot of social issues.

Modifié par Mr.House, 28 avril 2011 - 07:45 .

[Addai]

The little-girl cutesy clingy thing seems to be an archetype that a lot of people find appealing. Worked with Leliana and Tali, it apparently works with Merrill for some.

It makes me want to reach for the nearest semi-automatic weapon.

[mesmerizedish]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I have a serious answer:

Hawke's relationship with Merrill sets off a number of alarm bells for me. She feels young, inexperienced, and in tremendous need of affection. That's before you take into account she's a destitute elf cut off from her people and in a strange, hostile city while Hawke is rich, powerful, and human.

It's not a relationship of equals. I am not entirely comfortable with it the way I am with an Isabela romance.

My head-canon is that mage Hawke romanced Isabela because she did see Merrill as a substitute for her little sister. She became someone to love and protect, but not an object of lust. My warrior Hawke was smitten immediately, but I view her as being a bit... simple. She was oblivious to the larger issue surrounding their relationship and Merrill was much more intelligent than she.

Your Chris Hanson comic wasn't serious?

I agree, up to a point. It's clear to me that Merrill truly loves Hawke with her heart... she's not just smitten with hero-worship. It is a case of Merrill seeing in Hawke what she wishes she could be. The relationship is unequal, but not in a way that makes me uncomfortable.

I think a lot of the romance revolves around letting Merrill know that she shouldn't look up in awe at Hawke because she's just as strong in her own right. Of course, that's mostly head!canon again, because we get so few romance conversations

[Herr Uhl]

Addai67 wrote...

The little-girl cutesy clingy thing seems to be an archetype that a lot of people find appealing. Worked with Leliana and Tali, it apparently works with Merrill for some.

It makes me want to reach for the nearest semi-automatic weapon.

And the cutesy man that will also love you forever and ever worked swimmingly too. *points to Alistair and partly Anders*

[TheBlackBaron]

Addai67 wrote...

The little-girl cutesy clingy thing seems to be an archetype that a lot of people find appealing. Worked with Leliana and Tali, it apparently works with Merrill for some.

It makes me want to reach for the nearest semi-automatic weapon.

Uh...not sure that Leliana really falls into the same "little-girl cutesy" archetype. Clingy, well, maybe, the whole thing about keeping my eyelashes in a jar still makes me shudder. 

But that's why David Gaider wrote Morrigan. 

[Addai]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

The little-girl cutesy clingy thing seems to be an archetype that a lot of people find appealing. Worked with Leliana and Tali, it apparently works with Merrill for some.

It makes me want to reach for the nearest semi-automatic weapon.

And the cutesy man that will also love you forever and ever worked swimmingly too. *points to Alistair and partly Anders*

Yeah, Alistair's right there on the edge.  But for hardening, he'd be annoying, too.

[Mr.House]

Addai67 wrote...

The little-girl cutesy clingy thing seems to be an archetype that a lot of people find appealing. Worked with Leliana and Tali, it apparently works with Merrill for some.

It makes me want to reach for the nearest semi-automatic weapon.

I did not get that feeling from Leli at all.

[hoorayforicecream]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

It is when we've just licked the forbidden cupcake for the first time, and we haven't even defined a relationship yet. 

Well, Maria brought up a good point a while back that I agree with. All that stuff doesn't actually happen in one evening. It's condensed as a result of Varric's narration.

I disagree. After testing Merrill's earrings for authenticity, Merrill asks "What happens now? Are we... what did this mean?". I'd say that certainly seems like Merrill and Hawke haven't defined their relationship yet. That's why the whole 'I love you!' declaration set off the warning bells for me. 

Maria Caliban wrote...

I have a serious answer: 

Hawke's relationship with Merrill sets off a number of alarm bells for me. She feels young, inexperienced, and in tremendous need of affection. That's before you take into account she's a destitute elf cut off from her people and in a strange, hostile city while Hawke is rich, powerful, and human. 

It's not a relationship of equals. I am not entirely comfortable with it the way I am with an Isabela romance. 

I agree with this. A lot. (Warning: speculative psycho-analysis. Opinion from here on out.) The main issue I saw with Merrill was that she is coming from a place of years of emotional trauma. She's been left out, and all of the other elvish reindeer have treated her badly. When strong, confident and (most importantly) emotionally welcoming Hawke shows up, she latches on like an emotional barnacle.

She becomes fixated on Hawke, because she sees Hawke as the reason she's happier than she was before. Her friendships with Varric and Isabela never would have happened if not for Hawke. Her life, her chance to continue researching the eluvian would never have happened if not for Hawke. She sees Hawke as the source of her happiness. To wit:

Aveline: I didn't expect you to stick around for this mess Merrill. This has nothing to do with your elves.
Merrill: I love Hawke, I wouldn't go anywhere.
Aveline: But it's not your fight.
Merrill: I love Hawke.
Aveline: You said that.
Merrill: I say it a lot. It makes things clearer, takes away doubt when everything is crazy and people are dying.
Aveline: I understand.
Merrill: Oh, good. Someone should.

To me that's kind of offputting, because if (heaven forbid) at some point they need to go our separate ways, Hawke can't leave in good conscience, because she's still so emotionally dependent on Hawke. You can't have a relationship of equals when one person still has major self-esteem issues. It's just a personal view, and I don't begrudge anyone else the romance. It's well-written and very endearing. I just don't see it as a healthy one, so I can't get behind it.

[jlb524]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

To me that's kind of offputting, because if (heaven forbid) at some point they need to go our separate ways, Hawke can't leave in good conscience, because she's still so emotionally dependent on Hawke. You can't have a relationship of equals when one person still has major self-esteem issues. It's just a personal view, and I don't begrudge anyone else the romance. It's well-written and very endearing. I just don't see it as a healthy one, so I can't get behind it.

Do you think this problem applies to both the friend and rival romances?

[mesmerizedish]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

She becomes fixated on Hawke, because she sees Hawke as the reason she's happier than she was before. Her friendships with Varric and Isabela never would have happened if not for Hawke. Her life, her chance to continue researching the eluvian would never have happened if not for Hawke. She sees Hawke as the source of her happiness. To wit:

Aveline: I didn't expect you to stick around for this mess Merrill. This has nothing to do with your elves.
Merrill: I love Hawke, I wouldn't go anywhere.
Aveline: But it's not your fight.
Merrill: I love Hawke.
Aveline: You said that.
Merrill: I say it a lot. It makes things clearer, takes away doubt when everything is crazy and people are dying.
Aveline: I understand.
Merrill: Oh, good. Someone should.

To me that's kind of offputting, because if (heaven forbid) at some point they need to go our separate ways, Hawke can't leave in good conscience, because she's still so emotionally dependent on Hawke. You can't have a relationship of equals when one person still has major self-esteem issues. It's just a personal view, and I don't begrudge anyone else the romance. It's well-written and very endearing. I just don't see it as a healthy one, so I can't get behind it.

In fairness (and this totally depends on the player, I know), that's exactly how my character felt about Merrill. Merrill was truly the only good think she had, and she was obscenely dependent on her for her emotional well-being. She didn't even have a pet project like the eluvian to focus her energies on. My Hawke was the clingy one in their relationship.

I daresay that Bethany was the only reason she sided with the mages. I mean, she had lots of other justifications, but the driving factor in her decision-making process was "Bethany, mage." And that's because she was an emotional black hole who had been leeching off of a single woman for four years.

[Maria Caliban]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Of course, that's mostly head!canon again, because we get so few romance conversations

It begs the question of how much cRPGs expect and intend for players to put their own spin on things.

Compared to the romances in novels and movies, cRPG romances generally aren't as good. My assumption has always been that these are highlights that the player would then stuff with their own, personal details on how things would play out.

If I were RPing with a group, I'd consider simply passively reacting to the narrative and NPCs to be lazy. If I were reading a book, I'd expect the author to make it clear how a relationship began, developed, and culminated.*


cRPG players tend to vary wildly in their expectations and reactions. There isn't a standard as there is in other media.

*Which, oddly enough, annoys me to no end, as many novels include 'romantic tension' based on the couple both being idiots. Romance and paranormal romances are especially egregious in this regard. Historical romance novels tend to handle this the best.

Mr.House wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

The little-girl cutesy clingy thing seems to be an archetype that a lot of people find appealing. Worked with Leliana and Tali, it apparently works with Merrill for some.

It makes me want to reach for the nearest semi-automatic weapon.

I did not get that feeling from Leli at all.

Leliana is girly but I never found her inexperienced or childish. If it turned out she'd been working for the Grand Cleric this entire time and was simply spying on the Wardens, I wouldn't be surprised.

On the other hand, Tali and Merrill being secret agents who were manipulating the PC? I'd see that as a break in character.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 28 avril 2011 - 08:06 .

[jlb524]

Maria Caliban wrote...

It begs the question of how much cRPGs expect and intend for players to put their own spin on things.

Compared to the romances in novels and movies, cRPG romances generally aren't as good. My assumption has always been that these are highlights that the player would then stuff with their own, personal details on how things would play out.

I don't know, but I do this a lot with cRPGs, and not just with romance.  I think I prefer it this way (less is best) as I have more freedom to interpret the dialog/scenes as I wish from what we are given.

[mesmerizedish]

Maria Caliban wrote...

It begs the question of how much cRPGs expect and intend for players to put their own spin on things.

Compared to the romances in novels and movies, cRPG romances generally aren't as good. My assumption has always been that these are highlights that the player would then stuff with their own, personal details on how things would play out.

If I were RPing with a group, I'd consider simply passively reacting to the narrative and NPCs to be lazy. If I were reading a book, I'd expect the author to make it clear how a relationship began, developed, and culminated.*


cRPG players tend to vary wildly in their expectations and reactions. There isn't a standard as there is in other media.

*Which, oddly enough, annoys me to no end, as many novels include 'romantic tension' based on the couple both being idiots. Romance and paranormal romances are especially egregious in this regard. Historical romance novels tend to handle this the best.

I'm more than happy to fill in my own blanks. But I think I've been conditioned by people saying "Well, you can't say that's what the romance was about because we didn't get to see any of it, so you're totally wrong." People so often base their conceptions on only what the game presents us with. I can interpolate, and it feels just as real to me. But it doesn't seem to hold up in an argument

[Mr.House]

jlb524 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

It begs the question of how much cRPGs expect and intend for players to put their own spin on things.

Compared to the romances in novels and movies, cRPG romances generally aren't as good. My assumption has always been that these are highlights that the player would then stuff with their own, personal details on how things would play out.

I don't know, but I do this a lot with cRPGs, and not just with romance.  I think I prefer it this way (less is best) as I have more freedom to interpret the dialog/scenes as I wish from what we are given.

Same here. with my three Hawkes, there's alot of stuff that happens with her/him and the party memebers, including there LI. For example, Fiona and Izzy had sex before Act 2 but it's the scene in Act 2 where Fiona talks about feelings. *I do the sceen in a way where nothing stops the thought of them having sex before*

With Emma and Merrill, I do alot of hand canon stuff before the sceen and when she moves it. I don't mind that Bioware does it this way

[whykikyouwhy]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

I'm more than happy to fill in my own blanks. But I think I've been conditioned by people saying "Well, you can't say that's what the romance was about because we didn't get to see any of it, so you're totally wrong." People so often base their conceptions on only what the game presents us with. I can interpolate, and it feels just as real to me. But it doesn't seem to hold up in an argument

I think you'd be safe to use that in an argument though. Unless your counterpoint can produce some documented fact/interview/etc from (in this case) a developer or writer that states "this is exactly how Merrill should be perceived...we just didn't show it to you", then your interpretation and spin on things has validity. Everyone is going to put their own heart, soul, or sheer geek joy into their characters. So just as we each may have played a different Hawke - diplomatic, sarcastic, aggressive (or any combo of) - so is that unique PC arc going to shape what you put into your romance.

[MelRedux]

I got the cutesy girly vibe from Leliana.  It was the shoes and the giggling.

[Mr.House]

Mel_Redux wrote...

I got the cutesy girly vibe from Leliana.  It was the shoes and the giggling.

Oh I love shoes!

[TheAwesomologist]

I never looked at Merrill as someone who wasn't Hawke's equal. Sure she doesn't share Hawke's status in Kirkwall, but she's confident in her abilities (perhaps overconfident) and is quite proficient in her craft.
She's just socially unprepared for Kirkwall and living amongst humans. She has certain "childish" tendencies but I don't equate that with her ability as a Mage/Keeper or her standing as an adult woman.

[mousestalker]

I thought of Merrill more as a little sister in my rivalmance with her than at any other time. On the one hand I was her lover, but I was also trying to keep her from doing something massively foolish. It was an odd dynamic but it worked well.

As for the Aveline-Merrill conversation I find it more sad than anything else. My mind may be filling in the blanks here, but at that stage Merrill had lost her clan. She had lost her Keeper and Hawke was almost her only remaining connection. All of her remaining relationships centre around Hawke at that point.

In DA2, Merrill loses. Bioware created a puppy and kicks her for three Acts.

[Zjarcal]

Mel_Redux wrote...

I got the cutesy girly vibe from Leliana.  It was the shoes and the giggling.

But the cutesy thing inspired you to make awesome xbox screenies!

Twas a good thing I say. 

EDIT: x.x ...

*looks at above post*

Fluttershy overdose.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 28 avril 2011 - 08:19 .

[Shacary]

when I play a LadyHawke she's a lil sister, but when I rp Hawke, I figure shes just a lil sweetie, niave a bit youngish but that can just seem to be so since she lived apart from human society ... sides he has Bethany so doesnt need another sis ... teehee

 edited  since i  read  a few more  comments i missed previously....
     Even if  one thinks of   Merrill as    latchign onto a  friendly  face  or  what not amidst the   turmoil of her   seculsion/seperation/segregation..  there is no viable reason the  relationship wouldnt   work well.  IF  Hawke  cna  respect her , she  seems to respect herself... so  IDk if  I would   classify it as a " sick  relationship" [  my words trying to  find  correct meaning  and  cant .. sorry ]
   And I  thought  the   I luv him comment [ wish i could link    others  comments  IDK  how :( ]     was more  than  enough  proof  of her  feelings...  mb its just me, but i would  defend my  loved ones   tooth and  nail wether I  agreed with their  choices or not, simply  becuz I luv them.. It  made  sense to me, and  the fact  Aveline  understood the  statement  confirmed  imo the understanding..     sometimes when we  love  others   it doesnt  make  sense in a logical  manner but it totally is  possible in the emotional  parameter.. if that  makes  sense!
 cheers all!

Modifié par Shacary, 28 avril 2011 - 08:32 .

[MelRedux]

Zjarcal wrote...

Mel_Redux wrote...

I got the cutesy girly vibe from Leliana.  It was the shoes and the giggling.

But the cutesy thing inspired you to make awesome xbox screenies!

Twas a good thing I say. 

EDIT: x.x ...

*looks at above post*

Fluttershy overdose.

*giggles* Yes, the flinging poo does bring me great joy

[LadyJaneGrey]

*Raises hand*

On the first play through, her Act One party banters and conversations sounded very much like my younger cousin - sweet, a bit naive, and with a slight case of hero worship.  So that Hawke found her adorable and wanted to help her adjust to Kirkwall.  I kept hoping Merrill could move into the Hawke Estate as a friend.

On the second playthrough I heard different banters and realized she has a more argumentative side and is a bit of a pervert (as has been mentioned previously).  "Did I miss something dirty?" 

If you can romance Merrill, more power to you.  I still can't shake that first impression.