202 réponses à ce sujet

[lolwut666]

@Ieldra2

Sovereign itself said that, by using the Mass Relays technology - their technology - we evolve along the paths they desire. Whatever we'd find in the Collector base is Reaper technology.

Also, Dr. Kenson and her team recovered a Reaper artifact in the Arrival DLC, and look what happened to them.

TIM used Reaper technology on Paul Grayson in the Retribution novel, and it turned out ugly.

So I don't see what your point is.

Modifié par lolwut666, 03 mai 2011 - 03:14 .

[Dave666]

didymos1120 wrote...

Dave666 wrote...

Didymos?  Why do you even bother bud?

I honestly don't know. 

There, there, have a cookie for your efforts? 












I'd give you a medal but quite frankly I don't think they've made one yet that properly sums it up.

[Seboist]

lolwut666 wrote...

@Ieldra2

Sovereign itself said that, by using the Mass Relays technology - their technology - we evolve along the paths they desire. Whatever we'd find in the Collector base is Reaper technology.

Also, Dr. Kenson and her team recovered a Reaper artifact in the Arrival DLC, and look what happened to them.

TIM used Reaper technology on Paul Grayson in the Retribution novel, and it turned out ugly.

So I don't see what your point is.

The Collector Base was never meant to be used by Galatic Civilization, nor were the Thanix Cannon and A.I like EDI.

[lolwut666]

You can tell yourself whatever you want, but humanity's track record with Reaper tech/artifacts is most unfavorable.

Also, it's likely that a race as advanced as the Reapers will know very well how to counter their own technology being used against them.

[Ieldra]

lolwut666 wrote...
@Ieldra2
Sovereign itself said that, by using the Mass Relays technology - their technology - we evolve along the paths they desire. Whatever we'd find in the Collector base is Reaper technology.

The problem is with using technology without understanding it. That's what galactic civilization is doing. They don't really understand mass relays but are using them. Of course they aren't the masters of the technology. Understanding brings control, and once you understand the principles on which Reaper technology is based you are in control
It's not magic, thrice damn it. It's not mind control. It's just machines.You're saying we should throw away understanding because we may not like what we see?

Also, Dr. Kenson and her team recovered a Reaper artifact in the Arrival DLC, and look what happened to them.

I do not believe that any technological artifact can be like evil mojo that cannot be defended against. Again, understanding brings control. Until we understand these things, we have to be extremely careful or stay away from the stuff. If its so damned dangerous, who knows what attempts to destroy it might do. Kenson and her team weren't careful enough or didn't have the resources for a high-security setup. Several people have outlined security measures to study Reaper technology in comparative safety.
 

TIM used Reaper technology on Paul Grayson in the Retribution novel, and it turned out ugly.

It was a failed experiment that should never have been started. But even so, Grayson's escape was the result of extremely unlikely circumstances coming together. Also he wasn't really a big threat.

And my point is that it is stupid to ignore the possibilities that may come from understanding pieces of advanced technology if you're in a war for your very survival. That Paragon Shepard chooses to use a sentimental argument in favor of destroying the base makes him appear stupid.

It comes across as if he's afraid of some moral taint exuded by the much-dreaded Reaper technology more than of being killed by the Reapers together with all other intelligent organic life in the galaxy. I say THAT is giving in to an irrational fear.

[KainrycKarr]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Play Paragade man. You avoid being a self-righteous douchebag, and a a-hole. Most of the time.

This....also...giving it to TIM just didn't seem like a bright idea.

Modifié par KainrycKarr, 03 mai 2011 - 04:22 .

[chelseaisthepan]

I actually liked that line..

[VampireCommando]

i thought it was one of the best lines into the game in my opinion. Also i doubt Shep would of had time to argue the finer points of the arguments with T.I.M while there in the collector home base, this is probbably the first thing that came to his mind.

[Bad King]

PnXMarcin1PL wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Paragon = idealistic Shep, Renegade = practical Shep

If you want to be practical, keep the base.

spoilers

Which will give power to  the Cerberus, which will turn their back on Shepard in ME3. That's being practical. More problems with Reapers flying around in the Milky Way.

This argument again? The fact that Cerberus are at odds with Shepard will give Shepard the opportunity to seize many of Cerberus's assets, including perhaps the Collector base.

[Arijharn]

lolwut666 wrote...

@Ieldra2

Sovereign itself said that, by using the Mass Relays technology - their technology - we evolve along the paths they desire. Whatever we'd find in the Collector base is Reaper technology.

Also, Dr. Kenson and her team recovered a Reaper artifact in the Arrival DLC, and look what happened to them.

TIM used Reaper technology on Paul Grayson in the Retribution novel, and it turned out ugly.

So I don't see what your point is.

Around in circles we go! Wheeeeeeeeee

Notice how there's a difference between devices that are obviously plonked right in the way of traffic and well something like the Collector Base that's hidden far out of the way and locked behind a door that is always locked, and that there is a giant vacuum cleaner that threatens to suck everything out if you get past that locked door and even inside that little room you find little mice with laser beams attached to their heads that... I'm getting carried away I know it, I admit it.

There's a difference mate between something that is obviously there for people to use (and use it safely...) and something that is hidden so far out of the way as to be functionally invisible until it makes itself known (I mean, we didn't even know what the Collector homeworld was until they lifted the schematics off the ship, and they couldn't even get to it without bypassing a secure Mass Relay, and it was located far out in the boonies so to speak).

It's a Xanatos Gambit to the max if somehow beyond all the improbable events that Shephard took to even get that far to also somehow trap the CB, it's just plain nonsense to assume that the Reapers engineered it for that purpose.

[lolwut666]

@Arijharn

I hope you are aware that everything you said is just wishful thinking, because neither you nor anybody else really knows how Reaper tech works.

What I said is also speculation, but at leats it's based on what we've seen of Reaper tech at work so far.

It could or it could not be dangerous/useful.

And what's important is that Shepard has no way to confirm either theory when you get to choose to keep the base or destroy it, so whatever he decides to do with the it is reasonable, given the circumstances.

[UnAffectedFiddle]

Using tools like a gun, to describe adopting the technology of a hyper advanced organic/machine hybrid is faulty. That gun doesn't exert mental control telling the wielder to gun down every child it finds.

The apparent sole purpose of the base is to melt civilisations down into putty for building, I'll stress this, a living organic machine and genetic experimentation. It's like saying yeah, we should use those Husk machines to totally turn people into mindless shock troops! Some slopes cant be navigated without a fall.

Its also not like we didn't recover a ton of information on Reapers and collectors. The whole time isn't it suggested EDI is interfacing with the base/ships? Information salvaged form dead Reaper and the Rho artifact. We also have their little beam guns, our Thanix technology is better even! Our new reinforced plating is tough as nails and...it all comes from Aliens working together. Which means we have the technology to defeat Reapers, what is stopping us is the typical secrets between nations in regards to technology and warfarre. Asari armour plating, Taurian weapons, Quarian drives etc Which is the requirement of ME 3, gosh!

The sole purpose of gaining Reaper genetic experimental equipment is to make sure Humanity is the only one that benefits from the massive leap in power.

Just Shepard didnt have the time to go into the finer points so summed up his/her feelings as the "soul" of the species. That governing their sense of honour, our consciousness and personality. You know, that gray line you blur when blowing up a school is considered worth it in a war for instance. Maybe it would have a strategic value, but at some stage your sacrificing "your soul" for a material gain.

[Arijharn]

lolwut666 wrote...

@Arijharn

I hope you are aware that everything you said is just wishful thinking, because neither you nor anybody else really knows how Reaper tech works.

What I said is also speculation, but at leats it's based on what we've seen of Reaper tech at work so far.

It could or it could not be dangerous/useful.

And what's important is that Shepard has no way to confirm either theory when you get to choose to keep the base or destroy it, so whatever he decides to do with the it is reasonable, given the circumstances.

That's right, but we need help defeating the Reapers, we know that there technology far outmatches our own, we know that Reaper shields are impervious to Dreadnought firepower. We are screwed. We need something, anything to help make an impossible goal finally attainable.

Having the wreckage of Sovereign (lets assume we will) will help imo, but is it so wrong as to increase your 'sample size'? We only have hazy details of what the Reapers technology amount too (but what we do know marks them as pretty much catastrophic) and the best way we have to understanding them is to study them, and to potentially build technology beyond our current capabilities.

If using the Collector technology is a trap, then it is no more or less of a trap than what we are currently on in regards to our utter dependence on Mass Relay technology (that we can't just discard). However, what we do know is that galactic standard weapons tech is not sufficient, therefore necessitating higher standards. Even the Thanix is unproven against Reaper defenses, so even then it may not be enough. Even if it is, then I think individual ship captains will be much more comfortable in not being so reliant on the Frigates and Fighters which are the only ones currently that can utilize it, and hell, more weapons is probably the safer bet anyway.

It's precisely because everything is so uncertain that you should hedge your bets and utilize the base, because to do less is negligence of the highest order.

[Konfined]

Arijharn wrote...

lolwut666 wrote...

@Arijharn

I hope you are aware that everything you said is just wishful thinking, because neither you nor anybody else really knows how Reaper tech works.

What I said is also speculation, but at leats it's based on what we've seen of Reaper tech at work so far.

It could or it could not be dangerous/useful.

And what's important is that Shepard has no way to confirm either theory when you get to choose to keep the base or destroy it, so whatever he decides to do with the it is reasonable, given the circumstances.

That's right, but we need help defeating the Reapers, we know that there technology far outmatches our own, we know that Reaper shields are impervious to Dreadnought firepower. We are screwed. We need something, anything to help make an impossible goal finally attainable.

Having the wreckage of Sovereign (lets assume we will) will help imo, but is it so wrong as to increase your 'sample size'? We only have hazy details of what the Reapers technology amount too (but what we do know marks them as pretty much catastrophic) and the best way we have to understanding them is to study them, and to potentially build technology beyond our current capabilities.

If using the Collector technology is a trap, then it is no more or less of a trap than what we are currently on in regards to our utter dependence on Mass Relay technology (that we can't just discard). However, what we do know is that galactic standard weapons tech is not sufficient, therefore necessitating higher standards. Even the Thanix is unproven against Reaper defenses, so even then it may not be enough. Even if it is, then I think individual ship captains will be much more comfortable in not being so reliant on the Frigates and Fighters which are the only ones currently that can utilize it, and hell, more weapons is probably the safer bet anyway.

It's precisely because everything is so uncertain that you should hedge your bets and utilize the base, because to do less is negligence of the highest order.

And just how could they even so much as plan on even studying the base?  I mean, what with the whole Reaper invasion being right around the corner and that pesky little fact that standing within 100 yards of a Reaper object is risking indoctrination; I guess the plan is to just throw as many bodies at the base as they can until they all figure something out, right?  The series will be over by the time Cerberus even figures out how to work the light switches safely.

Modifié par Konfined, 04 mai 2011 - 04:03 .

[Reapinger]

Reaper tech = indoctrination. Studying it would be fruitless unless you used Geth to study it or other syntetic life. Maybe teams in small time intervals could work too but 1 year is not nearly enough time to unlock the secrets of the reapers and the IFF was proven to be a harmful piece of code indeed. Too much uncertainty and danger for me with that.

[Arijharn]

Konfined wrote...
And just how could they even plan on even studying the base?  I mean, what with the whole Reaper invasion being right around the corner and that pesky little fact that standing within 100 yards of a Reaper object is risking indoctrination; I guess the plan is to just throw as many bodies at the base as they can until they all figure something out, right?  The series will be over by the time Cerberus even figures out how to work the light switches safely.

Lol, I dunno. I do know that destroying it without the chance to study and explore it to be completely irresponsible though. It's asinine to assume that they can't impose safeguards though or even remote study via robots or whatever (hell, we can hack a security mech in Arrival). I can't say for sure if we can build examples of higher tech such as putting our spin on a Collector DEW but even if we can't, we could understand Reaper tech better by studying schematics or whatever.

However, it's pretty damn ironic that you say this though:
'I guess the plan is to just throw as many bodies at the base as they can until they all figure something out, right'

Isn't that exactly what you plan to do against the Reapers anyway since you have no capability to actually thwart their defenses as is? What, you planning that the Reapers will reach their kill limit and shut down? Your weapons are useless. You hoping to crush them in the weight of bodies?

Collector tech is derivative of Reaper tech, but Collector tech isn't Reaper tech. The Reaper itself is reaper tech, so Indoctrination I feel is only really a risk there (although that isn't to say due caution can't be exercised elsewhere).

As for the progress of new discoveries, then that would be reliant on factors such as the calibre of scientific personnel sent there, but I honestly have no clue just that there's a pressing need to try.

[Ultai]

People are so worried about indoctrination from any source of Reaper tech. I highly doubt that all reaper tech is designed to indoctrinate, such as the Mass Relays.

What you should really be concerned with is by throwing away the base, you're going into this fight with no knowledge or idea of how indoctrination works. Besides, with Reapers all over the systems you're going to be up to your ears in indoctrination regardless, with no way to deal with it. But at least you won't let fear compromise who you are right? Tell that to the former free willed organics.

[Labrev]

Ieldra2 wrote...

That's exactly NOT the point. That the Reapers have the means for a galactic extinction is a very reasonable assumption - they've done it countless times. That they are beyond Citadel Civilization in technology is a fact. All experience and history shows that it is all but impossible to beat them. No, we won't cower in fear, but having to use all means at our disposal is a very reasonable assumption.

The assumption that we can beat the Reapers *without* a tech upgrade, *that* is irrational - no one of the countless civilizations before has managed it. People's elevating Cerberus to the supreme evil, before which concerns about the Reapers become irrelevant, that is irrational. It's moral indignation at Cerberus overriding strategic reasoning.

Thus, Shepard's line is the embodiment of the idiotic kind of Paragon's stick-your-head-in-the-sand-and-hope-for-the-best mentality. There are other kind of Paragons I'd like to play, but that version is unbearable.

Impossible to beat them? Not a fact. We fought, and won, against two Reapers so far. Granted, both were just one single Reaper, one of which was not complete (the human Reaper) but nonetheless. I am NOT making any assumptions that they can be beaten, but there's reason to think we do stand a chance. In the instance that we do, in fact, beat them... then this decision has a high liklihood of biting us in the butt.

Again, there are many issues with viewing the Base as a tool against the Reapers. (1) Don't give credit where it's not due, there is no evidence to safely say that the base is in fact an asset to our cause. (2) While the base may be of use, it may also be a hazard. Many have raised the issue of indoctrination. That's just a side-effect that we know of. Handling technology we don't know has many possible unknown consequences we can't account for (See: IFF). Does that give it more reason to be studied? Yes. But is it worthwhile to risk shooting ourselves in the foot while the Reapers are on the march? (3) Cerberus has a propensity for failed experiments. Whether or not they have good reasons is another story, but let's face the facts. Giving an already-delicate material to them is asking for trouble, even before an issue of trust comes into play. (4) Lastly, the decision should be made irregardless of the Reapers altogether. As such, they are not related, and so they are not a logical part of the equation. The core benefits/consequences of keeping it or not keeping it are the same, Reapers or no Reapers.

Imagine, then, what happens if the base is indeed a key weapon to defeating the Reapers. This technology belongs completely to Cerberus. Power corrupts. If Cerberus has the know-how to defeat the greatest previous-known enemy that the galaxy has ever faced, what's to stop them from becoming just that?

It's a catch-22: the technology may not be worth the trouble, but if it turns out to be valuable, it's going to become trouble. What's "head-in-sand/hope-for-the-best" if not freely arming a known menace to the galaxy? Far from a guarantee it works out at all to combat the Reapers.

Like the Rachni wars, Krogan used in short-sighted reasoning. The Council was better off fighting without them. The base spells trouble. Uncalculated risk. Too many variables/unknowns... safer without it.

[Konfined]

Arijharn wrote...

Lol, I dunno. I do know that destroying it without the chance to study and explore it to be completely irresponsible though. It's asinine to assume that they can't impose safeguards though or even remote study via robots or whatever (hell, we can hack a security mech in Arrival). I can't say for sure if we can build examples of higher tech such as putting our spin on a Collector DEW but even if we can't, we could understand Reaper tech better by studying schematics or whatever.

It's asinine because safeguarding of Reaper tech experiments has worked so well in the past, right?  And I guess if, all of a sudden, it didn't take massive resources to launch such an expedition, and the results you're seeking could happen overnight, this could all have merit.  However, based on what I've seen in the ME universe so far, it doesn't seem to work that way.  And do keep in mind that the Reaper force is literally months away.

However, it's pretty damn ironic that you say this though:
'I guess the plan is to just throw as many bodies at the base as they can until they all figure something out, right'

Isn't that exactly what you plan to do against the Reapers anyway since you have no capability to actually thwart their defenses as is? What, you planning that the Reapers will reach their kill limit and shut down? Your weapons are useless. You hoping to crush them in the weight of bodies?

Maybe it is Shep's plan and maybe it isn't; we have no idea what's going to happen come ME.  Regardless of that, even if it were I seriously doubt having the Collector Base would suddenly alter that plan.  Shepard would still be throwing bodies at the Reapers even with the Collector Base in tow.  Oh, and Sovereign was killed by bullets.  The Reaper Larva was killed by bullets.  So something's gonna have to give if Bioware intends for Shepard to actually be able to stop the Reapers, base or no.

Collector tech is derivative of Reaper tech, but Collector tech isn't Reaper tech. The Reaper itself is reaper tech, so Indoctrination I feel is only really a risk there (although that isn't to say due caution can't be exercised elsewhere).

And I would genuinely like to see the evidence you have supporting this claim.  Considering that the Prothean's technology was based entirely off of Reaper technology, and that the Collectors are Protheans re engineered by the Reapers, for the Reapers, I would really like to see where you got this from.  My logic is based entirely off of facts and evidence presented in game, what do you have to support your statement?

As for the progress of new discoveries, then that would be reliant on factors such as the calibre of scientific personnel sent there, but I honestly have no clue just that there's a pressing need to try.

And unfortunately, considering Cerberus' track record with dangerous experiments, I don't see that being a good thing, which is where the heart of the issue lies.  If it were anyone else but Cerberus, I would agree wholeheartedly that the base could have use, but no, definitely not in their hands.  I'll be taking my chances without it.  And I still think destroying is the better option than giving it to Cerberus.

Modifié par Konfined, 04 mai 2011 - 05:17 .

[Arijharn]

Konfined wrote...
It's asinine because safeguarding of Reaper tech experiments has worked so well in the past, right? 

And that's reason enough is it? Kon... we're going to be up to our eyeballs in Reaper tech soon enough, I dunno about you, but I'd rather try to explore and try to develop countermeasures before that happens. If we can stymie Indoctrination itself than we are far less susceptible to subversive elements within our own ranks (such as Reaper infiltrator agents, such as Dr. Kenson or even another Saren-like figure).

Konfined wrote...
And I guess if, all of a sudden, it didn't take massive resources to launch such an expedition, and the results you're seeking could happen overnight, this could all have merit. 

You're absolutely right, we don't know for sure... but I have the potential to find out, you don't, because you destroyed it... remember? I'm not talking guarantee's, I'm talking about choices that seek to maximize our chances.

Konfined wrote...
However, based on what I've seen in the ME universe so far, it doesn't seem to work that way.  And do keep in mind that the Reaper force is literally months away.

True, but Reaper technology isn't magic. It's based in fundamentals of science that we can duplicate if not perfectly we can understand theoretically. For example; The Collector Beam Rifle is technology that we aren't capable of manufacturing ourselves because of limitations in manufacturing processes, but the fundamentals of how it works isn't lost upon us. We can duplicate and develop the Thanix weapon and even miniaturize it to be mounted on a frigate or fighter (remember; Sovereing is a Dreadnought). 
Even if technology itself is beyond our grasp to duplicate (and some of it should be anyway; remember the base is the homeworld of the Collectors, which implies to me at least that it has manufacturing plants on it) and presumably that Collector Cruiser (and all it's armaments) had to have been assembled somewhere right?

Kon wrote...
Maybe it is Shep's plan and maybe it isn't; we have no idea what's going to happen come ME.  Regardless of that, even if it were I seriously doubt having the Collector Base would suddenly alter that plan.  Shepard would still be throwing bodies at the Reapers even with the Collector Base in tow.  Oh, and Sovereign was killed by bullets.  The Reaper Larva was killed by bullets.  So something's gonna have to give if Bioware intends for Shepard to actually be able to stop the Reapers, base or no.

Kon, throwing people ad nausem into the Reapers isn't what I would consider an effective military strategy, not without some sort of measure of 'success' being up your sleeve. Without some sort of technological gain, you would be getting back nothing but 'scrap metal' if you're even that lucky. All I can do to plan my Shep's fight against the Reapers come 3 is to try and engineer events as much as possible to my favour as I can.

EDI herself says that the Reaper shields are impervious to Dreadnought firepower, so you're bullets aren't going to accomplish well anything, unless somehow you're going to fly close enough to scuttle a Reaper from inside, and considering the amount of Reapers there are... I think you're insane if you think you'll be able to do it to all of them.

Metagaming, of course the Reapers can be prevented with or without the base, but as for me personally, I think it's honestly moronic to destroy it considering how little we know about the Reapers. Yes, Cerberus is a risk, but it's better Cerberus than no-one imo, and Cerberus can be dealt with after the Reapers because placing Cerberus as a greater risk does not stack up compared to the narrative.

Kon wrote...
]And I would genuinely like to see the evidence you have supporting this claim.  Considering that the Prothean's technology was based entirely off of Reaper technology, and that the Collectors are Protheans re engineered by the Reapers, for the Reapers, I would really like to see where you got this from.  My logic is based entirely off of facts and evidence presented in game, what do you have to support your statement?

The fact that the Collector Base and the Collector Ship has a honeycomb sortof structural architecture to it. The fact that the Collector Beam Rifle looks more organic than anything else (and makes me think of the Geth style for some reason) and even the Collector Assault Rifle looks more half organic than the sort of style used for the Reapers as seen compared to Sovereign or the Larvae. The fact that Reapers had to make use of implants within the collector's themselves to continue to control them.
If the Protheans use technology that was based entirely off the Reaper technology is enough to persuade you otherwise, then you're even more screwed, because our technology is based off their's.

So, I think I have physical evidence within the game to back mine up whereas you have assumptions generated from game.

Kon wrote..
]And unfortunately, considering Cerberus' track record with dangerous experiments, I don't see that being a good thing, which is where the heart of the issue lies.  If it were anyone else but Cerberus, I would agree wholeheartedly that the base could have use, but no, definitely not in their hands.  I'll be taking my chances without it.  And I still think destroying is the better option than giving it to Cerberus.

Look, I'm not saying that there aren't risks involved, I'm saying that even with the risks involved it's even a greater risk to ignore it. The Council couldn't get involved because the Collector Base is smack bang in the middle of the Terminus Systems, there is no way for them to get involved and not spark an interstellar arms race at best and a war on the eve of the Reaper's arrival at worst. If I can't trust Cerberus I can trust Aria T'Loak even less (ie., trusting Aria to just let Council ships through and pass into the O4 relay, and even then there are pirates involved in the area because of what the Terminus supposedly represent; aka, the wild west of space), because at least Cerberus has given me aid all throughout ME2, from simple monetary transactions to giving me a new stealth frigate to a new crew and of course, successfully resurrecting me from the dead. Does that mean I owe them? No... I owe it to not just humanity but galactic civilisation. Why? Because I'm a Spectre and I've taken a certain oath to safeguard the galactic community.

[PMC65]

Will the "to save or not to save" even really impact ME3? Or was it just a "feel good to tell TIM off" moment? For me the line was a little cheesy but if the decision has no real impact to ME3 then that would be even worse.

[Arijharn]

PMC65 wrote...

Will the "to save or not to save" even really impact ME3? Or was it just a "feel good to tell TIM off" moment? For me the line was a little cheesy but if the decision has no real impact to ME3 then that would be even worse.

You know, I'm actually pretty confident that the major decisions will have a major impact on ME3's story. ME2 got flak for having no choices that mattered but then again ME2 was the second game of the trilogy, what sort of major events could really happen and still make ME3, for want of a better term, epic? Did people really want to see the Rachni ingratiate themselves into the wider galactic community for example?

Just because ME2 imported variables from ME1, doesn't mean ME2 actually had to act on those variables, it could just be carrying those variables along for the ride entrusting ME3 to do what it has too.

Modifié par Arijharn, 04 mai 2011 - 06:45 .