16 réponses à ce sujet

[Xardex]

Hey

Now that im having the mild interest in nwn 2 multiplayer again, im wondering if there are any PvP servers out there. And now im talking about actual PvP servers, not the ones where you just can PvP.

Think of NWN 1, Antiworld, Bastions of War, Life vs Death....

I remember I once played on life vs death remake (nwn2), but I doubt thats on anymore..

[DM Wired]

 I recommend DEX: http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/161/index/3122110

Modifié par DM Wired, 29 avril 2011 - 05:40 .

[Xardex]

Everytime, no matter where I ask, the answer is always DEX.
Unfortunately, what people dont seem to realise, DEX is not an PvP server.
It is yet another server where you just can PvP.

Modifié par Xardex, 29 avril 2011 - 09:15 .

[painofdungeoneternal]

Actually if you log into it, it warns you to remember that it is a PVP server. "Don't get mad, get even." is the only real law on dex. I am not sure how that equates to a server where you just "can" PVP, the entire design of DEX is to promote PVP, to allow completely random PVP regardless of level. PVP is not secondary, it's the primary reason the PW was created.

I've never ever done anything to prevent PVP, nor ever will, even if it's completely random acts of violence. However being into PVP does not mean you have to be a jerk, and not everyone who is on is looking for PVP, and quite a few of the players do make sure those they do PVP with are actually wanting PVP, but that is entirely their choice. Dex has always had people who really just like the module itself for whatever reason and play it despite the fact its a PVP module. Right now that is who are mostly on, and to me the more people having fun the better.

My feeling is the level restrictions i put into place are enough to make it so both can coexist, and the highest restricted area can become completely unrestricted if you desecrate a certain altar, and consecration undoes that -- again another reason to PVP. Remember the level restrictions were done to make it so there is only 1 completely no PVP area instead of about 15 before, and there are about 10 level restricted areas -- players are completely free to do low level PVP in those areas which is actually very fun to do.

If someone who is level 30 kills a level 5 and steals all their gear, well that is what dex has always been about. I'm not going to do anything besides chuckle. However the module is also designed so that level 5 with a little bit of thinking can completely avoid that, if they avoid all the short cuts between level restricted areas.

The module is well balanced, monsters make sense, it's fast leveling. I wish i had more time to put into developing it, but right now it's the most stable and bug free than it's ever been. Have not even been on myself in quite a while, but i am still very slowly putting effort into various projects that will improve it greatly. It has not had the numbers it had at one time, but that issue is a chicken or the egg one, wherein you need numbers to get numbers.

I think the other one i hear about is LOA, which has better numbers. But it's the "agreed upon" non effy PVP. Dex is still primarily a PVP server, despite the fact that RP and non-PVP action is far more popular in NWN2 and if i went that direction i'd probably have a full server. I'd rather have an empty module than leave the original design and philosophy. The only thing i can do is keep improving the module, how full things are is up to the players.

[Xardex]

Well I can only say once again, dex is not the PvP module I am after. Maybe it is focused on PvP but the last time I played there I found it much more enjoyable and reasonable to team up and do something else. I never said DEX sucks or anything like that.

My earlier frustration was because numerous people have told me to go to dex. While I am tempted to tell them to go to hell, I dont, and instead respond with maximum cynicism that as I clearly pointed out in the first post, im looking for true PvP servers, where there is just the PvP, and no running around in a giant world after bosses and booty.
If my posts make me seem like a jerk, it just might be because im writing the same thing in twice as many words.

Anyway... If there is a PvP server out there that is alike the examples in the first post, do tell.

Modifié par Xardex, 29 avril 2011 - 01:29 .

[NWN DM]

If what you want doesn't exist, go out and build it instead of complaining that everyone points you towards the closest thing to what you're asking for.

[c i p h e r]

An arena server, basically. I don't recall anyone posting about one. The problem may be in actually having people around to fight.

[Xardex]

Aye, that was the problem with the life vs death remake, just not enough players.

NWN DM, it doesn't help me if you point me to a orange when im looking for an apple. Nor was I complaining. Also, why would I be here asking if such a server existed, if I was capable of making one myself?

[NWN DM]

Purple.

[luna_hawke]

Try Legends of Arcadia? I'm not 100% sure though it fits what you want.

[Jesse_the_Thief]

PvP servers are non-existent as far as NWN 2 is concerned thus far. DEX is what I think of as "bully" PvP. There's PvP, but by its nature it consists primarily of high levels running around picking on low levels. I'm working on a true PvP/RP server, but it's been slow going.

[NWN DM]

Jesse_the_Thief wrote...

DEX is what I think of as "bully" PvP. There's PvP, but by its nature it consists primarily of high levels running around picking on low levels.

Isn't this how these things usually work out?

[painofdungeoneternal]

Jesse_the_Thief wrote...

PvP servers are non-existent as far as NWN 2 is concerned thus far. DEX is what I think of as "bully" PvP. There's PvP, but by its nature it consists primarily of high levels running around picking on low levels. I'm working on a true PvP/RP server, but it's been slow going.

Sounds like you don't know much about PVP, nor do you know much about DEX. It also sounds like you are talking about a few bad apples, from what i've seen when i've logged on anonymously is players who are helpful, who try to help new players learn the server and get some levels, and give advice on how to do proper builds, and who get to know you before they start hunting you ( which generally gets started when you yourself attack one of their friends, i personally am kill on sight no matter what level i am if you can get me )

There are systems in place so that high levels cannot pick on low levels unless the low levels choose to go to high level areas, but then you will get slaughtered by the monsters just as fast as by players like that. At high levels it is unrestricted but there are level caps on some areas which allow you to level up.

By the same token, there are no rules much like what you'd face if you were really adventuring in Faerun or Greyhwak. Just read one of the novels and you always see some high level red wizard of thay slaughtering a defenseless apprentice mage or the zhentarium on a rampage. There is nothing in the evil charter that says you need to check levels, or ask for permission before you attack some defenseless innocent, likewise without evil like that what is the point in being a great hero who protects such people. Yes you do have to look over your shoulders because at ANY moment someone could come and kill you, but those doing it can just as easily be much lower level than you, and with the level restrictions will usually not be more than 5 levels higher than you. And just like real PNP it behooves you to form a party, to team up with others so you have a mix of classes.

Note that before i took over we had a few complete jerks who really ruined things for others, but there are jerks too on RP servers, they just need to be gotten rid of. I heard the server they went to basically was destroyed by them as well. We have always had quite a few RP players and have a lot to offer the action type player beyond just PVP, and generally always have had a few folks who dislike PVP entirely off on their own just leveling up characters and grinding XP or doing a quest.

Ours is NOT a RP server, it's a action server with a focus on PVP, with fast leveling so it's possible to do a few builds and learn how to make a character, but it's also get much better balancing than most other servers out there, and a lot of detailed scripting and added features which captures a lot of the options you had back in PNP games soas to make a wizard who focuses entirely on fire or acid spells for example, or which makes a warlock able to teleport when using flee the scene, or spells like alarm which warn you when an enemy enters the area you are in.

In the end it's all about tactics and skill on the part of the player, if a high level kills a low level its entirely the mistake of that low level player who likely decided to take a short cut thru some area or other they shouldn't have which is clearly marked high level pvp.

[Jesse_the_Thief]

As a matter of fact I've played on DEX 2 extensively in NWN 2 and for a bit in NWN 1. I've been working on PvP based mods in NWN 1 and 2 off and on since NWN 1 came out and played many extensively such as Life vs Death, Battle of the Dragons, Anphillia, and Eternal War. I've built and hosted my own versions of BotD, Anphillia, and Eternal War at different times. I've played all of the Team/Arenas for at least some time, finding Bastions of War and Antiworld to be lackluster as examples.

I actually find DEX 2 to be a fun server to play on, I've stopped just shy of max leveling a couple PCs and played with a dozen others until level 10-20. Running around exploring, fighting, leveling, and testing build concepts kept me busy for a couple months. But DEX 2 would stop being fun when it started getting widely popular, just as in DEX 1. There is no objective measurement for what makes a "good" or "bad" PvP server, but in my book DEX is a flawed model. It's dog eat dog wild west which naturally empowers obnoxious players who want to pick on low levels. Once level 40s started popping and and killing my level 20 on DEX 1 I failed to see the point or enjoyment for any one. I really just lost interest. While NWN DM is right about the base nature of PvP, team PvP does create a lot more balanced fighting for every one involved. BotD had the best PvP to date in my book since all players leveled roughly at the same rate. My idea of PvP doesn't involve realistic combat because realistic combat is comprised of armored and trained soldiers slaughtering the enemy's civilian populations and then running away if seriously challenged. Or in NWN terms, level 40s attacking level 20s and simply running away if outgunned. It's no fun to me to be in either position of being helpless or feeling like a jerk.

Saying there are a few bad apples on a server like DEX is like saying there are a few bad apples among prison guards. Civil, compassionate people don't do well in the harsh, dehumanizing role of keeping thugs and killers in boxes. In the same way the design of a module largely determines not only the sort of player you draw, but also molds player behavior over time. In DEX 1 I tested and found one could easily use player side .2das to override core rules and cheat. For the test I made a Barbarian with a Bard's skill selection, for instance, granting him the combat skills of a warrior with the skill selection of a scout. When I started asking around the players reacted alternately by telling me to keep quiet (often hiding behind the rules to justify why they didn't want the info publicly known) or with cute little tells letting me know they knew about it. DEX is an environment where cheating such as that will spread like wildfire because the very nature of the game is "no such thing as rules". Most servers severely restrict PvP because of the sort of player it draws to the server and the sort of behavior it encourages - with good reason.

I will also add, it's not about skill and tactics. It's about skill, play time, and knowledge of exploits and other design flaws. Last I played there something in the custom content had broken the Hellfire Warlock's Hellfire Blast. While using Eldritch Chain I was receiving all the bonus damage without any of the Constitution damage. Thus I was getting +6d6 damage per blast free and clear. I tested in the OC and it worked normally, so it isn't an original error. There are countless such errors and oversights, especially with Kaedrin's massive content that, while well intentioned, is badly buggy and lacks rigorous testing. When I rebuilt my Hellfire Warlock I designed him with exploits in mind and he's a relentless killing machine; only a few bosses such as that crazy Gnoll god can stop him, and even then I still killed the jerk alone eventually. Skill? Eh, maybe. +6d6 damage amplified through +50% Eldritch Mastery? Probably. In case you're wondering, yes, I did send a message with the thingy in town, I've probably sent a dozen bug reports or more in the time I played there. I've made a couple of characters using exploits, mostly from Kaedrin's content, that effectively make 80% of the common build concepts obsolete in comparison. I sparred with 4 of another player's characters and effortlessly defeated all of them using my exploiting Warlock.

DEX 2 is fun for what it is, but it's not what most PvP players are looking for. The concept lends itself so readily to the worst aspect of PvP, the rampaging bully, that most players aren't going to become seriously invested in it.

[painofdungeoneternal]

Hmm, perhaps that is why so few people are on dex anymore.

My changes have neutered the bully, the psychos really hate the level restrictions, and those who have exploits they want to use leave since they just don't work. Of course you can still exploit, but that is going to happen on ANY PW. And the issue becomes when you fix the exploits the players who rely on them decide to leave. I mean fixing the bug which allows spirit shaman/sorcerors to get both the entirety of both spell books even though they are only level 2 spirit shamans is why a player told me they were leaving, and i hear the spells like IGMS and bigby being set to autowin are all that some players care about.

There is a difference between PVP loving players and jerks. After i banned the total jerks, the server they left mine for ended up with zero population. They were a roleplay server too. It does not matter what the server is, certain players just cause problems, and frankly i should not have to be spending time policing players exploiting to the point where they are adjusting their 2da's. There is such a thing as being a good sport, but i do spend a lot of time dealing with that sort of thing.

In the end it comes down to who is on. I have adjusted dex to make it so it's enjoyable by all and so that you do indeed need skill. I fix exploits i know about, and i do it aggressively and it will mess up your builds. It is a no rules and anyone can PVP anyone, but it's balanced by the fact you can choose your area you are in which forces there to be a lot of low level pvp. If i have to have a low population to be jerk free, that is fine by me, i just don't like associating with people like that.

I have an update that fixes eldritch chain-not sure if its in module yet ( sea of dragons reported the issue after testing it ), and as far as i know i've fixed every bug reported to me via the in game tools, on forums, and currently i am fixing bugs reported to me from sea of dragons as well and other PW's using my codebase. However quite often it takes 6 months to develop a work around, and implement and test it by which time you probably left. Kaedrins content has far fewer bugs than official content. ( i do have a bit of expertise on the bugs and exploits in the game )

I will review your characters as if you are an exploiter and see if there is anything missed. Regardless of your opinion, i am pretty sure i have fixed enough real bugs in the game provided as is to make any i've introduced minor in comparison. I can do far worse things than you describe having done with a sacred fist cleric with the default rules on just about any server out there, from what i've seen even on dex doing a warlock is probably your worst choice of class to focus on which is why i've given it so many boosts to make it playable.

[Jesse_the_Thief]

I have found consistently that the biggest PvP freaks are the last ones who want exploits and imbalances fixed. The ideal server in the eyes of the PvP freak is one where there are numerous esoteric exploits which only regular players know about along with a steady stream of new players to act as fresh meat for the established click to rip apart. Depending on the server it can survive that way for a long time like Alestorm LoTR has or it can kill the server like it did with Anphillia and Eternal War when the supply of new players dries up. I don't how many times I've left a PvP server in disgust because the regulars were all loading up one team to crank up their K:D ratios.

It's a real pain because the PvP freaks are often a cornerstone of player base since they play so much, but if they can't have their way they wander off and take the numbers with them. Most players are too lazy to try anything but servers with already established numbers, so it's a catch 22. NWN 2 is a lot better about these issues thus far though, since there seems to be a lot of players eager to try anything that pops up.

Keeping the problem players neutered isn't easy, I agree, you have to go through everything with a fine tooth comb and some people just need a ban in the end. Keeping ****s from being ****s is like trying to regulate banks, they're always looking for the loopholes and will eventually find them. You can change a lot with NWN 2 though. Take the Monk's Flurry of Blows glitches. I can't change some things but I did move Flurry of Blows to level 6 instead of 1. That way builds that want to exploit the extra attack are going to have to sacrifice a lot of potential power to get there. Also, I took out Greater Flurry since the glitch effectively grants it earlier. I'm considering giving Monks Cleave at level 2 (like in NWN 1) to compensate somewhat, but it's really not imperative.

I'd say I really only made two exploitative characters, and they were designed with soloing in mind. The Warlock could get away with anything because of Chilling Tentacles and the Hellfire Blast glitch. Chilling Tentacles has an additional 50% speed penalty to victims which stacked. So by tossing those in piles I could kill the dragon boss without ever getting hit just by keeping him slowed up. I only had trouble with critters that have Freedom. The second character was designed more for solo and less for PvP since player numbers were low anyway. By combining Duelist and Bladesinger with a Wizard base his AC is insane while still having good combat skills. I even soloed that crazy snake island at level 14 which none of my other characters could since his physical defenses were impenetrable. In PvP he'd be beatable with a good dispel but other than that it would take another pretty exploitative build to stop him. I had a couple others in mind but I never leveled them, such as a Monk/Weaponmaster using the Flurry of Blows glitch.

The changes to Warlock are good overall imo, it's a class that isn't designed for solo play and the changes make it more doable. The Hellfire bug was a major issue, and if you took the 50% move penalty off of Chilling Tentacles it would balance out better. There's a good web invocation that's really pointless because Chilling Tentacles does the same thing and more. I'd probably have more to say if I could remember, but my main PC is out of order so I can't log in.

Since you're here I might as well make suggestions for what they're worth. I have talked about DEX 2 with a few other people over time and played quite a bit.

It may seem counter intuitive but I think Kaedrin's hoard of classes turns off as many players as it attracts. I suspect it intimidates newer players, and you can pretty much bet on there being some pretty disproportionately powerful combos with so many custom classes. Sure, there are some real tweaks in the base classes, but making fixes to those exploits would be better use of time than adding more. I think many newer players look at the list and are a little overwhelmed, and also intuitively realize they're going to get beat on by players who know the system.

The area level limits are well intentioned by they have had some undesirable consequences. For instance, sometimes you need to go to an area to complete a quest or get certain items but once you're too high you're out of luck. I've had characters locked out of finishing the first quest for example, and I know to always hit the Troll king before level 20 or I'll never be able to get regen items again without using an alt to farm them. It also occasionally interferes with partying as I recall, not every one can go to every area. Some areas are also a bit disproportionately capped for their difficulty, at least for solo play.

Also, stealth classes are extremely painful to solo with. I played a Ranger into 20s but got sick of using him because it was always such a trial. Compare that to a warrior, priest, or mage which steamrolls through most encounters. classes which rely on Sneak Attack for damage are where things start getting downright impossible; for some reason enemies spot you instantly over and over. I think it's linked with the spawn in, it seems if any enemy spawns within visual range of you he automatically detects you. I couldn't get a Scout/Rogue past the Ogre caves. Stealth classes are always tougher to solo with but if that AI weirdness was fixed it'd help.

I've also been wondering what the deal with no magic shields is? It effectively restricts a lot of combinations and makes soloing much harder. In conversation with other players I found it was a real source of dissatisfaction. Ironically, it also opened up another sort of exploit. I have a Wizard/Fighter/Eldritch Knight that uses a Tower Shield and Still Spell. Because the spells "Shield" and "Improved Shield" provide shield enchantment bonuses I effectively have a +6 Tower Shield with that character, giving him a nice edge in AC over typical warrior classes. A lack of magic shields generally forces melee builds to stick with 2 weapon fighting or 2 handed weapons past level 10 or so.

I'll be back on once I get my PC working, but at least a couple months ago glitches were still the #1 issue in my experience. In addition to the above mentioned problems Hellfire Shield didn't work right. It rarely activated at all, while in stock rules it seems to work fine. When I had it on every once in a blue moon it would actually fire and damage an attacker, but mostly it did nothing. A lot of spells had issues as well, many were in a state of half finished or didn't work as described. In my experience you're better off making sure everything is "clean" as I like to call it before adding it in, meaning glitch free and not open to exploitation. If you're going to expand content doing so very conservatively and carefully is the way to go, and no matter how good an idea is if you can't make it clean then usually you're better off dropping it. Having very little custom content won't turn players off, whereas anything that doesn't work right is a cumulative detraction from the overall experience in the eyes of players. I know personally I've spent a couple hundred hours just fixing the core game's problems and I'm still not done. Every time you add a new class, spell, or other feature you're not just adding that feature, but the overhead of trouble shooting that comes with it. Right off the top of my head, Intuitive Attack is probably not a good idea to add in for example. It confuses the entire balance between warriors and priests and immediately makes a Dexterity based Monk obsolete to a Wisdom based version, a choice which was previously fairly balanced.

Anyway, I'm not trying to rag on DEX 2, it's fun to play with overall, it just has (had?) some hot spots that ideally would be taken care of. It had a small but live player base when I last played, with some adjustment I think it could really take off. I aim for a different sort of PvP concept, but the DEX model has its virtues that make it worth playing.

Modifié par Jesse_the_Thief, 14 mai 2011 - 09:31 .

[painofdungeoneternal]

A lot of things being done both attract and disgust players, in the end that is why we have multiple PW's. You are going to never have clean everything, and the only way to really make it such is getting rid of most of the classes, which is how almost every other PW i've seen deals with issues, nerf it to death. The type of people who look for issues are going to find them, the admins look for them, it becomes an arms race of bug fixing which ends up with nothing changing.

I am choosing to do things the way i want to, if there are players so be it but i am trying to make NWN2 into the game i want to play. While this might hurt things short term, i know that as i get closer to making it work how i want it will be something worth playing. Dex2 is continuously improved, and is much better than when i started, but it's not perfect, never will be and i focus more on if something i am adding adds fun to the game, gives players more options.

And frankly if you are doing your own PW you are going to be recreating a lot of the fixes i've done over the years, most players just don't have any concept of how many issues i've already fixed and just focus on what is broken. Quite a bit is just structural work to allow me to eventually add new features which were not possible prior in NWN2, and i am sure if your PW is going to have a chance you are going to have to use a lot of the work i've done, cajoled or fought for.

There was a PW a while back which i am pretty sure had the same premise you are planning with 2 regions at PVP war with each other, but it was action based. Have not heard about it in a while though.