25 réponses à ce sujet

[streamlock]

I've been toying around with another playthrough, and it occured to me that through every playthrough dialogue/interaction sequences are usually polerized between a paragon/renegade option.  Yeah, they have the option to pick a more middleground choice, but it's usually not as satisfying and does not give you many (if any) gameplay perks like a all out renegade/paragon choice.

Now, I'm not suggesting that there be some kind of Paragon/Renegade, and...erm...apathetic Shep for ME3, but wouldn't having some kind of incentive to play the game through the roads less travelled (you know, usually  the middle choice on the Dwheel)?

(Honestly through my 2nd playthrough I started choosing more of what I thought my character would choose as I invisioned s/he once my P/R score got maxed, but then that sorta supports what I'm asking above).

I guess that is a bit of what I see as a problem, I start making RP choices to max some Par/Ren Light/Dark path holdover from KOTOR and at some point stop actually roleplaying my character.

[Urdnot Orrad]

Yeah, that is a problem, but my canon Shep is a Paragon/Paragade. He would take mostly Paragon dialog options, but also Renegade ones if he were, say, stressed out (which is difficult, as he is VERY patient), or if it would make fights easier for him and his people.

[Vena_86]

Let's just hope that BioWare is aware of how the system detracts from actual roleplaying and rather becomes a hunt for paragon/renegade points.

[Waltzingbear]

The problem is really that the persuasion options are neatly tied to your Paragon/Renegade score, so you are inclined to farm those points or being locked out of dialogue options.
I don't know how they can reward you for having a high Paragon/Renegade score without the dialogue option but I hope they eliminated that issue in some way.

I had a couple of playthroughs where I really chose the lines I wanted to, for example being polite and less close-minded but cutting short the hugging time, or being more aggressive when the need arises, but as you can expect when having a mix of those, squadmates end up dying.

[theSteeeeels]

i think the easiest way to improve this fault is to add a third option bar like, "neutral", and you can gain points for that, and that in itself also opens it own perks

Modifié par theSteeeeels, 29 avril 2011 - 12:09 .

[Waltzingbear]

theSteeeeels wrote...

i think the easiest way to improve this fault is to add a third option bar like, "neutral", and you can gain points for that, and that in itself also opens it own perks

That doesn't fix anything only adds one more dimention to the same problem. Sometimes I prefer to go with the upper option sometimes with the lower and sometimes with the middle one. Framing it like it is in ME2 makes you feel like you're being punished for actually thinking about what you're doing.

[Aumata]

The reason why it was change in ME2, was because being renegade, and a paragon didn't mean anything. Was just a old concept of morality, or being a good cop vs bad cop. If paragon and renegade was removed in ME1. We wouldn't even have this type of issue with the whole paragon, and renegade. Truthfully I hope they just get rid of the system and do something similar to how DA2 did it, if you are not going to put in a charm and intimidate skill in.

[theSteeeeels]

Waltzingbear wrote...

theSteeeeels wrote...

i think the easiest way to improve this fault is to add a third option bar like, "neutral", and you can gain points for that, and that in itself also opens it own perks

That doesn't fix anything only adds one more dimention to the same problem. Sometimes I prefer to go with the upper option sometimes with the lower and sometimes with the middle one. Framing it like it is in ME2 makes you feel like you're being punished for actually thinking about what you're doing.

i know it doesnt fix it but bioware arent going to overhaul the paragon renegade system this late, but the idea does improve it

[MaynPayn]

I totally agree with you.
I mean sometimes it doesn't feel like you are making the decisions, but more like being guided to decisions.

[Destroy Raiden_]

My main shep is a paragade she chooses neutral responses when its a neutral situation ie someone is explaining things to her or asking her a question. She chooses ren or para when praise or scorn is needed in neutral situations or when tense situations occur ie para at Tali's trial, ren when dealing with Turian on Novaria. She chooses para or ren interrupts at curtain points ie shoot mech when saving Garrus, head button the krogan.

She doesn't choose the para ren interrupts at other times ie after we kill spector girl in SB all those para interrupts go by unused. I try to base it off of the mood of the scene and how I would react in that moment if I feel an interrupt is necessary I'll use it if not it comes and goes but when things like Mornith crop up I can't para or ren her and that is frustrating I don't want to be forced to choose para all the time or ren all the time to satisfy the meeter.

I want like I had in ME I could talk w/o too many blue para or ren red moments and each comment would count as something and I could add points to my para ren if it wasn't auto growing fast enough for me then I could truly play how I wanted when I wanted and she could say what she wanted and when she wanted.

Also BW what's up with tactical decision being proclaimed as ren? Shoot the mech in Garrus's mission, set the krogan on fire? Those shouldn't be ren decision those should be points added to both sides sense it is good no matter if you're ren or para you just took one out so that's one less to fight your team members

Now interrupting Mordin to say shut the hell up! Head butting the Krogan, finding those Turians and beating them up that's ren.

I liked in OL punching Archer was a para choice could para shep get a few more moves like that so it's not all I'm going to drop my clips in hopes you don't kill the hostage dumb move like that? Shep doesn't have to punch and pressure point disarm every bad guy they meet but a few would be great.

The system needs to be rethought. For instance on the wheel top para mid neutral ren bad is fine for normal conversations when intense scenes are made but no blue para or red ren are not selectable options at that stage try thing for the wheel top para, mid tactical, and bottom ren. If blue para and red ren are available then do gold tactical think of it as uber tactical.

Then for interrupts don't tag them as left side of screen is para right side of screen is red do it based off of action shep can shoot evil doctor now because it's a natural reaction to her flashing a bomb if player hits it both para and ren scales get added to it is tactical. Shep head butting the krogan is a natural reaction to him insulting the young krogan and shep knows from observation headbutting = shut the hell up in krogan so he does it both para and ren get the points.
 
Basically all interrupts in ME2 were natural reactionary tendencies if player choose to fallow those tendency both scales should gain points not one side or the other.

Modifié par Destroy Raiden , 29 avril 2011 - 01:11 .

[casedawgz]

My Shepard is a huge d-bag to most everyone outside of his crew, but makes paragon decisions when the stakes are really high. Usually I finish up with a full renegade meter and a paragon meter about a third of the way through.

[Schneidend]

Waltzingbear wrote...

That doesn't fix anything only adds one more dimention to the same problem. Sometimes I prefer to go with the upper option sometimes with the lower and sometimes with the middle one. Framing it like it is in ME2 makes you feel like you're being punished for actually thinking about what you're doing.

You're not being punished for not focusing on Renegade or Paragon. You simply do get rewarded for focusing and are not rewarded for being unfocused.

[Collider]

Preferably, there would not a paragon and renegade system at all. At the very least, they should stop making charm/intimidate be dependent on those points. It restricts roleplaying, and only encourages players to stick to one alignment.

[Waltzingbear]

Schneidend wrote...

You're not being punished for not focusing on Renegade or Paragon. You simply do get rewarded for focusing and are not rewarded for being unfocused.

Unacceptable, and of course semantical, ignoring the actual experience of the game.
Is my ability to influence people is dependant on how many hugs I give around? that's just silly. It's logical that there should be some effect to this, only a real badass should be able to do what a badass do, but not in the way it is handled in ME2.

I have no problem with a system that shares the same points distribution for Persuasion and Combat, but not being able to, for example defend Tali on her trial, could have serious influence on the story, and is too punishing and plot related to be just a "lack of a bonus".

You are right though about the fact that these special persuasion dialogues "should not" be handed for granted, otherwise the other dialogue options would become obsolete. I do like those moments like in LotSB when you can talk Vasir into releasing the hostage, or the options in the Patriarch task, or the batarians and Daniel in the quarantine zone in Omega, where you have to qualify for the ability to resolve them or something bad could happen, but some of the other consequences could be too brutal.

I think that the problem might be in the way that you earn the Paragon/Renegade points; you get them from just simple conversation. You know that almost every option on the top will give you blue points and that those on the buttom will give red one.
It's also unrealistic to believe that the only person who can influence people is a person who will always address situations in the way presented at the top right corner of the wheel.

Modifié par Waltzingbear, 29 avril 2011 - 03:58 .

[Schneidend]

Waltzingbear wrote...

Unacceptable, and of course semantical, ignoring the actual experience of the game.
Is my ability to influence people is dependant on how many hugs I give around? that's just silly. It's logical that there should be some effect to this, only a real badass should be able to do what a badass do, but not in the way it is handled in ME2.

I have no problem with a system that shares the same points distribution for Persuasion and Combat, but not being able to, for example defend Tali on her trial, could have serious influence on the story, and is too punishing and plot related to be just a "lack of a bonus".

You are right though about the fact that these special persuasion dialogues "should not" be handed for granted, otherwise the other dialogue options would become obsolete. I do like those moments like in LotSB when you can talk Vasir into releasing the hostage, or the options in the Patriarch task, or the batarians and Daniel in the quarantine zone in Omega, where you have to qualify for the ability to resolve them or something bad could happen, but some of the other consequences could be too brutal.

I think that the problem might be in the way that you earn the Paragon/Renegade points; you get them from just simple conversation. You know that almost every option on the top will give you blue points and that those on the buttom will give red one.
It's also unrealistic to believe that the only person who can influence people is a person who will always address situations in the way presented at the top right corner of the wheel.

You can easily defend Tali just by having enough quarian NPCs around. Again, your Charm and Intimidate options are just a reward for focusing and/or having a high class skill bonus. It's like a special "good" ending in certain games. You can finish the game just fine without, but if you want it you must meet certain conditions. Whether or not you find it "acceptable" does not make it poor game design.

[Seboist]

I wish there were different paths to take within both Paragon and Renegade spectrums like:

Pro-Human Paragon; This one wants human superiority on the galactic stage but through peaceful and ethical means.

Pro-Alien Renegade: This one would involve rallying the non-council species against the council.

Instead we have to juggle between some super idealistic moron and a non-empathetic jerkface.

[GroovieBuff]

I naturally went along the Paragon lines (being from snowy minnesota, if we want to be jerks, we do it when you're not around), so I was able to enjoy the perks of being fully Paragon while still feeling imersed in the game.

But I totally agree with you. There's no middle ground incentive.

[lolwut666]

They should've just kept the upgradable Charm/Intimidate stats of the first one, and only give Para/Rene points for major decisions rather than every single dialog.

[Amyntas]

Bioware rewards being unreasonably soft or harsh.

[brainless78]

Meh, to roleplay my shep, i was forced to cheat to start the game with maxed out paragon/renegade points, just so i'm not forced to use moronic responses.

[Avalon Aurora]

I think they need to refresh the whole thing.

Paragon and Renegade should be a 'reputation' type of score.

Charm and Intimidate should be brought back as body-language/voice/acting/convincing skill type things.

When you choose a paragon or renegade option in a dialogue, rather than denying you options when your score is too low, it might fail and produce a less desireable result if your result isn't high enough. This result would be a combination of your reputation ® times a multiplier for who you are trying to intimidate/charm, plus your appropriate charm/intimidate skill (S) with a different multiplier for the target. If the result is high enough, you succeed, if it is too low, someone isn't convinced or blows you off or whatever, intimidate they aren't scared, perhaps even would get angry or disapproving or something, and charm they wouldn't trust you, or something like that.

Meanwhile, some actions add to your paragon/renegade reputation scores, but charm/intimidate form a single 'persuasion' skill, which can also be used to influence people outside of paragon-renegade choices (ones that don't affect your reputation as either a paragon or a renegade). Paragrades would have an inconsistent reputation, reducing the benefits of their reputation scores, as they haven't earned as many points there, but could make up for it with putting extra points into the persuasion skill. Some targets might also have issues with both 'jerks' and 'goody-two-shoes' and having too high of paragon/renegade scores could create penalties in interacting with them which paragrades could avoid.

[Shimmer_Gloom]

I liked tying the charm to the P/R spectrum. And since you can earn P/R scores easier through the class skill its just like the first game (where the class skill made your charm/intimidate better). And I don't think that Paragon and Renegade were actually too extreme in comparison to something, like, Fable where you have to literally kick puppies to get enough points for the 'evil' side.

Its slightly more sophisticated. Though, I do agree that it does hamper roleplay to a degree... And I'm not sure how to get around it. I do really apreciate the idea they tried in Dragon Age where the middle option was sarcastic (thus opening sarcastic options if high enough). I found it very hard to play as anything else. It was just so maniacally fun.

"It's not like it could get any worse... I mean, its pretty late."

And this is someone who almost always goes Paragon.

[streamlock]

Yeah, I don't know of a solution off hand-guess that's why I'm not a game designer.

I don't think adding nuetral points, or adding a sarcastic/abathetic whatever score is a solution-though it would be a bit more interesting.

As far as them not changing the the whole Par/Ren this far in...Well Mrs. Norman stated no Golden cows-and they were willing to change quite a lot for ME2-so I don't think it is that far out of the question for them to tackle it.

Disjointing the charm/int talents from, or at least partially from Ren and Par points does sound like a good start. The stat thing is not a bad idea, as long as the crunching is all handled in the background. I think having such an overt old school stat driven persuasion system is something they are trying to avoid so as not to scare the...Ahem, 'wider market appeal' costumers away. Which is fine, what they don't know won't hurt em-just keep it hidden. It would make for a more dynamic experience at least.

[AlanC9]

Schneidend wrote...
You can easily defend Tali just by having enough quarian NPCs around.

Sure, if you did the Paragon thing at two different points earlier in the game -- one of which makes a hard battle somewhat harder. Otherwise, you can choose between gaining Tali's loyalty and gaining a tech upgrade, plus various game-world consequences. Which isn't a bad design, but a lot of RPG players can't seem to handle not being able to reach an optimal outcome in a situation.

Again, your Charm and Intimidate options are just a reward for focusing and/or having a high class skill bonus. It's like a special "good" ending in certain games. You can finish the game just fine without, but if you want it you must meet certain conditions. Whether or not you find it "acceptable" does not make it poor game design.

The problem isn't the consequences, really -- as I've said elsewhere, the SM is a lot more interesting if you don't have everyone loyal. The problem is the mechanics.

Modifié par AlanC9, 29 avril 2011 - 05:07 .

[chq]

I vote for Troll!Shepard as the third option, a la Sarcastic!Hawke.