129 réponses à ce sujet

[IMNWME]

True. But if your cd is up, wouldn't just Charging again to restore shields be the better option? If Reave hits multiple enemies (who are in health), that could help, I guess.

EDIT: No death Collector ship run, NG+ Insanity.  Same team: Grunt & Jacob, both with Inferno Ammo.  Got a bit dicey on the platforms after a Charge bug, but still powered through it using Medi-Gels.

Modifié par IMNWME, 02 mai 2011 - 10:36 .

[Stardusk78]

IMNWME wrote...

True. But if your cd is up, wouldn't just Charging again to restore shields be the better option? If Reave hits multiple enemies (who are in health), that could help, I guess.

EDIT: No death Collector ship run, NG+ Insanity.  Same team: Grunt & Jacob, both with Inferno Ammo.  Got a bit dicey on the platforms after a Charge bug, but still powered through it using Medi-Gels.

Yeah but I also like Reave because it has CC and it is biotic, and technically Vanguards are biotics...

[IMNWME]

No doubt. I like using Stasis on my Mattock Vanguard (though I don't use it on the platform Scion) for the instant drone kill and as an anti-YMIR button. Reave is my go-to bonus power for the Claymore Vanguard though, because I hate Charging when I haven't reloaded yet (you can't cancel during the time dilation). Rather keep running around longer with the health bonus from Reave.

[Stardusk78]

IMNWME wrote...

No doubt. I like using Stasis on my Mattock Vanguard (though I don't use it on the platform Scion) for the instant drone kill and as an anti-YMIR button. Reave is my go-to bonus power for the Claymore Vanguard though, because I hate Charging when I haven't reloaded yet (you can't cancel during the time dilation). Rather keep running around longer with the health bonus from Reave.

Unfortunately, ultimately, Kronner is right...the Mattock is OP, totally OP; the fact that an AR is the best SG...is rather frightening....

[Leeroi]

It's not true. Claymore > Mattock. In terms of both killing speed and ammo efficiency.

[Bozorgmehr]

Leeroi wrote...

It's not true. Claymore > Mattock. In terms of both killing speed and ammo efficiency.

Who cares about killing speed and ammo efficiency, Claymore >>> Mattock regardless

[Stardusk78]

Leeroi wrote...

It's not true. Claymore > Mattock. In terms of both killing speed and ammo efficiency.

Kind of disagree but the Claymore is cooler, that is for sure.

[IMNWME]

Killing speed? Wish I could record video! It looks nuts.

Btw, having Grunt rock the Claymore as a Vanguard leads to some hilarious situations. I'll be Charging around, killing mobs, and then sometimes, Grunt will just suddenly sneak up outta nowhere and blast an enemy in the face. In the second level of the Dantius Towers, I killed everybody but the last Eclipse Vanguard, and was gonna Charge him, but Grunt showed up, so I just stood around watching as he first tackled and then blasted him to pieces. Love that little guy.

[IMNWME]

Just had a "squee!" Vanguard moment. MSV Strontium Mule, I killed the Legionnaire and Heavy + 2 Blue Suns trooper support in the beginning room, and thought I was done. I opened the door... right into a group of five Blue Suns troopers! Apparently, something had messed up the spawn, so they didn't come through, but they were all clustered outside together.

I Charged one immediately, started mashing the trigger on the Mattock, and all five ended up on fire! One man versus five, and in the space of a few seconds, there was nothing left but burning corpses. That was one of the craziest sequences I've had on NG+.

[ObserverStatus]

If you love the Mattock so much, why don't you marry it?

[IMNWME]

I would, but I've already eloped with the Claymore

[Leeroi]

Stardusk78 wrote...

Leeroi wrote...

It's not true. Claymore > Mattock. In terms of both killing speed and ammo efficiency.

Kind of disagree but the Claymore is cooler, that is for sure.

You cannot disagree with the facts. The only advantage the Mattock has is as defence stripper and setting up biotic combos. For killing speed in terms of shooting people dead Claymore has no match for a Vanguard. I can bet you money that I'll complete Arrival much faster with a Claymore Vanguard than with a Mattock Vanguard, and I have experience with both as evidenced by this Mattock speed run and the video in my signature.

If you're going for biotic combos, especially late game with all upgrades, Mattock strips defences quicker than anything, so of course it's amazing. But you don't need to be a Vanguard for that. Yes, it rocks in the hands of a Vanguard, I even made a compilation to show it off with barely 2 assault rifle upgrades. However, having played with it, I can safely say Claymore is better by a wide margin.

[IMNWME]

Claymore is better in terms of ammo efficiency, for sure. Killing speed? Depends. Of course, when it's only one enemy, the Claymore is king. But if you've Charged your way into multiple hostiles, Mattock wins hands down because of the Claymore's limited range. As enemies start panicking and backpedaling, you have to chase them down if you're holding the Claymore (all while being shot at). The Mattock allows you to stay in one place, and constantly proc Inferno.

Mattock also takes down bosses, sub-bosses, and elites better (steady stream DPS). When individual enemies are spread far apart (like during the Object Rho battle), the Claymore is better.

Your individual playing style definitely affects your view of weapon choice, of course.

EDIT: Okay, just watched your video compilation.  Now I know why you don't think Mattock is as good.  You're using it like an AR to soften up mobs.  That's no good.  When Chief Roe comes down with her goons, you should just Charge immediately into them and start shooting.  This is when you'll realize the Mattock allows you to get away with some pretty insane Charges that the Claymore just can't do.

Modifié par IMNWME, 04 mai 2011 - 07:26 .

[Leeroi]

IMNWME wrote...
 But if you've Charged your way into multiple hostiles, Mattock wins hands down because of the Claymore's limited range. As enemies start panicking and backpedaling, you have to chase them down if you're holding the Claymore (all while being shot at). The Mattock allows you to stay in one place, and constantly proc Inferno.

Mattock also takes down bosses, sub-bosses, and elites better (steady stream DPS). When individual enemies are spread far apart (like during the Object Rho battle), the Claymore is better.

Your individual playing style definitely affects your view of weapon choice, of course.

The underlined bolded part is where you contradict yourself. I thought you said Claymore has limited range... Then surely for enemies spread far apart (or in other words, not in melee range) Claymore would be much worse by your logic? What's your final stance?

The "while being shot at" statement doesn't apply because with Claymore you kill enemies quickly while with Mattock you proc inferno. Both are efficient at eliminating enemies trying to shoot you.

EDIT:  This is when you'll realize the Mattock allows you to get away with some pretty insane Charges that the Claymore just can't do.

And the Claymore can do that Charge just fine, if not better than the Mattock.

[Ahglock]

Leeroi wrote...

IMNWME wrote...
 But if you've Charged your way into multiple hostiles, Mattock wins hands down because of the Claymore's limited range. As enemies start panicking and backpedaling, you have to chase them down if you're holding the Claymore (all while being shot at). The Mattock allows you to stay in one place, and constantly proc Inferno.

Mattock also takes down bosses, sub-bosses, and elites better (steady stream DPS). When individual enemies are spread far apart (like during the Object Rho battle), the Claymore is better.

Your individual playing style definitely affects your view of weapon choice, of course.

The underlined bolded part is where you contradict yourself. I thought you said Claymore has limited range... Then surely for enemies spread far apart (or in other words, not in melee range) Claymore would be much worse by your logic? What's your final stance?

The "while being shot at" statement doesn't apply because with Claymore you kill enemies quickly while with Mattock you proc inferno. Both are efficient at eliminating enemies trying to shoot you.

EDIT:  This is when you'll realize the Mattock allows you to get away with some pretty insane Charges that the Claymore just can't do.

And the Claymore can do that Charge just fine, if not better than the Mattock.

By far apart he means far enough apart that you will have to recharge to close with them again.  If they are together in a group the rate of fire of the mattok wins out over the OSOK power of the claymore.  But when not grouped up you will be recharging with either weapon so OSOK power is supreme.  

[Cody]

Clonedzero wrote...

also people using the claymore and using the reload glitch arent real vanguards, glitching is no way to play a game might as well alter your save file and increase your damage to 500% and all sorts of other cheats. LAME.

Untrue. The reload trick was purposely implimented in the game. It isn't a glitch or a trick. It is more or less a feature added by the devs.

Modifié par CodyMelch, 04 mai 2011 - 08:30 .

[Waltzingbear]

CodyMelch wrote...

Untrue. The reload trick was purposely implimented in the game. It isn't a glitch or a trick. It is more or less a feature added by the devs.

Source?

[Sparrow44]

Waltzingbear wrote...

CodyMelch wrote...

Untrue. The reload trick was purposely implimented in the game. It isn't a glitch or a trick. It is more or less a feature added by the devs.

Source?

The Reload trick is by design...

[Cody]

Sparroww wrote...

Waltzingbear wrote...

CodyMelch wrote...

Untrue. The reload trick was purposely implimented in the game. It isn't a glitch or a trick. It is more or less a feature added by the devs.

Source?

The Reload trick is by design...

Thought I would have to spend hours searching for that. Thanks

[Waltzingbear]

cool thanks.

[Leeroi]

Ahglock wrote...

By far apart he means far enough apart that you will have to recharge to close with them again.  If they are together in a group the rate of fire of the mattok wins out over the OSOK power of the claymore.  But when not grouped up you will be recharging with either weapon so OSOK power is supreme.  

Have you managed that in game? Because while it might sound good in theory, it's quite different in my experience.

The rate of fire of Mattock doesn't win at all in group situations. You still need 3-4 bullets to kill a mook with Mattock. You need a single shot with Claymore. With Claymore you always move to optimal range. Whereas, if Mattock is used as IMW describes, then you're not always utilising the proximity damage multiplier and those 3-4 bullets actually become 5-6. So the kill speed drops dramatically. And the point where you really notice it is where Mattock can't deal with a group with 1 clip. If you have to reload the rifle to continue firing, it significantly slows you down, while with Claymore you just continue using the reload trick...

[IMNWME]

Thank you Ahglock, that's exactly what I meant!

Leeroi wrote...

Have you managed that in game? Because while it might sound good in theory, it's quite different in my experience.

I've been raving about those in-game situations this entire thread.  But I think I Charge more recklessly/carelessly than you.

When you charge a group of enemies, they often begin to separate/backpedal.  If you have the Claymore, and Inferno procs, some will do the fire dance.  However, the ones just outside SG range will begin to shoot at you, forcing you to run after them with the SG while Charge cools down.  If your reload cancels are on point AND you have a clear view of who's shooting you (no surprise enemies popping out from behind cover), then you will own them.  If not, you will die.  With the Mattock, you don't have to worry so much, because instead of chasing them down and triggering enemies farther back, you can just start shooting and get them doing the fire dance - just one bullet into health! - until Charge cools down.  These are in-game observations.  I've been posting them as I've been playing through the campaign on NG+.

During the Object Rho battle, you're only Charging into one or two enemies at a time.  In this case, Claymore clearly wins.

Also, you talk as though the Claymore and Mattock fire at the same rate.  They don't.  In the time it takes to fire the Claymore, I can also fire off 3 bullets from the Mattock.  It's a little disingenuous to assert that the Mattock takes "longer" to kill than the Claymore just because you have to shoot more.  Yes, Claymore instant-kills mooks, but Mattock beats it by miles when it comes to enemies that take more than one shot.

And the point where you really notice it is where Mattock can't deal with a group with 1 clip. If you have to reload the rifle to continue firing, it significantly slows you down, while with Claymore you just continue using the reload trick...

"Significantly"?  Reload trick still takes ages.  Not saying you're wrong that the Mattock often necessitates reloading, but Claymore reload canceling takes forever too.

[Cody]

IMNWME wrote...

Thank you Ahglock, that's exactly what I meant!

Leeroi wrote...

Have you managed that in game? Because while it might sound good in theory, it's quite different in my experience.

I've been raving about those in-game situations this entire thread.  But I think I Charge more recklessly/carelessly than you.

When you charge a group of enemies, they often begin to separate/backpedal.  If you have the Claymore, and Inferno procs, some will do the fire dance.  However, the ones just outside SG range will begin to shoot at you, forcing you to run after them with the SG while Charge cools down.  If your reload cancels are on point AND you have a clear view of who's shooting you (no surprise enemies popping out from behind cover), then you will own them.  If not, you will die.  With the Mattock, you don't have to worry so much, because instead of chasing them down and triggering enemies farther back, you can just start shooting and get them doing the fire dance - just one bullet into health! - until Charge cools down.  These are in-game observations.  I've been posting them as I've been playing through the campaign on NG+.

During the Object Rho battle, you're only Charging into one or two enemies at a time.  In this case, Claymore clearly wins.

Also, you talk as though the Claymore and Mattock fire at the same rate.  They don't.  In the time it takes to fire the Claymore, I can also fire off 3 bullets from the Mattock.  It's a little disingenuous to assert that the Mattock takes "longer" to kill than the Claymore just because you have to shoot more.  Yes, Claymore instant-kills mooks, but Mattock beats it by miles when it comes to enemies that take more than one shot.

And the point where you really notice it is where Mattock can't deal with a group with 1 clip. If you have to reload the rifle to continue firing, it significantly slows you down, while with Claymore you just continue using the reload trick...

"Significantly"?  Reload trick still takes ages.  Not saying you're wrong that the Mattock often necessitates reloading, but Claymore reload canceling takes forever too.

No offense dude...but I think your problem is that you just suck with a shotgun...here is how its done:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVwrlrHiRMQ

[Ahglock]

CodyMelch wrote...



No offense dude...but I think your problem is that you just suck with a shotgun...here is how its done:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVwrlrHiRMQ

I suspect he can say the same thing about you and an assault rifle.  We all know the mattok is broken, so why is it so hard to accept that it breaks things.