129 réponses à ce sujet

[Cody]

Ahglock wrote...

I suspect he can say the same thing about you and an assault rifle. 

He could, but he would be wrong.

Ahglock wrote...

We all know the mattok is broken, so why is it so hard to accept that it breaks things.   

Because it isn't? There are many weapons that can keep up with it. The revenant is far more suited to soldiers who use hardened AR rush. While the widow and claymore out damage it by far. It's just good. Not the best.

Modifié par CodyMelch, 05 mai 2011 - 02:44 .

[lazuli]

CodyMelch wrote...

Ahglock wrote...

We all know the mattok is broken, so why is it so hard to accept that it breaks things.   

Because it isn't? There are many weapons that can keep up with it. The revenant is far more suited to soldiers who use hardened AR rush. While the widow and claymore out damage it by far. It's just good. Not the best.

The Widow and Claymore only outdamage the Mattock if you're counting single shots, and that gets hazy when you consider that the Claymore fires multiple pellets and not, in fact, a single shot.  The Revenant is an enjoyable weapon, but it lacks the safety and reliability that the Mattock can provide... from any distance on the battlefield.

I cannot speak to the effectiveness of a Mattock in a Vanguard's hands, as I have yet to try it.  I'm sold on the Viper.

[Cody]

lazuli wrote...

CodyMelch wrote...

Ahglock wrote...

We all know the mattok is broken, so why is it so hard to accept that it breaks things.   

Because it isn't? There are many weapons that can keep up with it. The revenant is far more suited to soldiers who use hardened AR rush. While the widow and claymore out damage it by far. It's just good. Not the best.

The Widow and Claymore only outdamage the Mattock if you're counting single shots, and that gets hazy when you consider that the Claymore fires multiple pellets and not, in fact, a single shot.  The Revenant is an enjoyable weapon, but it lacks the safety and reliability that the Mattock can provide... from any distance on the battlefield.

I cannot speak to the effectiveness of a Mattock in a Vanguard's hands, as I have yet to try it.  I'm sold on the Viper.

Single shots that are capable of one shoting the Harbinger Collctor . Combined with the reload cancel feature the Claymore can fire continuously. As for the Revenant? Again in the hands of an hardened Adrenaline rush soldier it does far more damage. This has been proven for the fact that it is a full auto weapon and when put on heightened it does far less damage than it does on hardned.

But for a Vanguard? Yea the mattock is the better assault rifle. But for any vanguard that knows how to utilize the shotty efficiently. They will find that even the eviserator is better.


Also to OP. Since you wovs the Mattock so much..then he should post this as much as possible!

Modifié par CodyMelch, 05 mai 2011 - 03:23 .

[termokanden]

CodyMelch wrote...

Because it isn't? There are many weapons that can keep up with it. The revenant is far more suited to soldiers who use hardened AR rush. While the widow and claymore out damage it by far. It's just good. Not the best.

Have you tried it with Heightened AR yet? I really doubt the Widow, Claymore and Revenant outdamage it by far. I think it outdamages them all. That's just from ingame experience, I didn't really test it methodically.

[IMNWME]

CodyMelch wrote...

No offense dude...but I think your problem is that you just suck with a shotgun...here is how its done:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVwrlrHiRMQ

It's funny how you post up videos that prove my points (also that are not yours, while questioning my skill).

In the second vid, the Claymore takes longer to kill than the Mattock would.  I know, because I just played that section, and it only emphasizes what I was saying.  After Kronner charged the first guy, he had to run around for a bit because the other enemies were outside SG range.  With the Mattock, I charged the same guy, killed the second from range, Charge cooled down, and I charged the third and his Legionnare buddy.  This is how the Mattock shaves time, because the battlefield is not always cooperative for SGs.

Look, I love the Claymore.  I was pimping the Claymore on the Soldier, back when nobody thought it was a viable weapon choice.  It doesn't change facts.  Mattock is great on a Vanguard, for reasons specific TO a Vanguard.  I mean, Mattock is great on any class, but it's a whole 'nother beast on a Vanguard, and people who say otherwise, really haven't played around with it enough.

Btw, Stardusk is ace with a Claymore, and even HE acknowledges the Mattock's power on a VG.  Seriously, his reload cancel aiming is flawless.

[Clonedzero]

why are people so crazy about wanting people to play games their way (aka the "right way")

if someone likes using the mattlock as their primary weapon as a vanguard, whats wrong with that? nothing at all.

i use the avenger/vindicator ALOT as a vanguard. is it the "right way" to play a vanguard? well for me it is, its the way i enjoy playing. i use Pull more than charge, alot more actually. pull is one of my favorite moves in ME2.

personally i hate teh claymore but i dont tell people they're wrong for using it if they like it. ive never used the mattock but ive seen videos fo it. seems like a great rifle, almost single handedly convinced me to get the firepower pack lol

[Kronner]

IMNWME wrote...

In the second vid, the Claymore takes longer to kill than the Mattock would.  I know, because I just played that section, and it only emphasizes what I was saying.  After Kronner charged the first guy, he had to run around for a bit because the other enemies were outside SG range.  With the Mattock, I charged the same guy, killed the second from range, Charge cooled down, and I charged the third and his Legionnare buddy.  This is how the Mattock shaves time, because the battlefield is not always cooperative for SGs.

Look, I love the Claymore.  I was pimping the Claymore on the Soldier, back when nobody thought it was a viable weapon choice.  It doesn't change facts.  Mattock is great on a Vanguard, for reasons specific TO a Vanguard.  I mean, Mattock is great on any class, but it's a whole 'nother beast on a Vanguard, and people who say otherwise, really haven't played around with it enough.

Obviously, Mattock is better for mid-range combat.
But in CQC, it is simply worse IMHO.
You are exposed for longer period of time, you can't kill an enemy every 1.4s, like you can with the Claymore (and you have all that time to aim), and you have to mash mouse button (no idea about xbox controller though) like crazy.
So in general, I'd say a shotgun will kill/disable quicker than Mattock, unless you Charge a group that is scattered and you can shoot them with the Mattock from mid-range. It is also possible that Mattock is better against bosses and sub-bosses, but a Claymore shot usually brings them down to their knees and they can't do anything.

As for Stardusk, his Mattock Vanguard on Korlus is a perfect example of what I mean. He almost died after his very first Charge, just because it takes a lot longer to kill a lone enemy with the Mattock.

In addition, I think it's silly to imply Leeroi (formerly BeresaadSoldier) has not played around with it enough.
I recommend this video of his to see the raw killing power potential Claymore has.

Also, in the Object Rho fight, I do not think it is possible to do a no-cover Mattock run, whereas you can do it with the Claymore etc. Although there will be situations where this or that is better. Mattock is definitely GREAT, I agree with that for sure. And considering
it is an Assault Rifle, I think it's better CQC option than it should
have been, but what can we do? Paid DLC is paid DLC...and imho that also
answers the OP..why is Mattock Vanguard so good -> paid DLC. Hopefully the
balance it a bit better for ME3.

For me, the button mashing alone is THE reason for abandoning Mattock altogether, but in any case, it all comes down to personal preference, again.

Clonedzero wrote...

why are people so crazy about wanting people to play games their way (aka the "right way")

if someone likes using the mattlock as their primary weapon as a vanguard, whats wrong with that? nothing at all.

You might want to re-read this thread. No one said there's anything wrong with this or that.

Modifié par Kronner, 05 mai 2011 - 10:42 .

[Bozorgmehr]

CodyMelch wrote...

Single shots that are capable of one shoting the Harbinger Collctor . Combined with the reload cancel feature the Claymore can fire continuously. As for the Revenant? Again in the hands of an hardened Adrenaline rush soldier it does far more damage. This has been proven for the fact that it is a full auto weapon and when put on heightened it does far less damage than it does on hardned.

But for a Vanguard? Yea the mattock is the better assault rifle. But for any vanguard that knows how to utilize the shotty efficiently. They will find that even the eviserator is better.

Nothing can one-shot Harbinger (on Insanity), it requires 3 point blank Claymore-, or 3 Widow head-shots to take him out.

The Rev is a very cool weapon, but crap compared to what you can do with the Mattock damage wise. Main issue is the RoF bug - unlike all other weapons, Mattocks rate of fire does not decrease during time dilation, which means you can empty an entire clip in one ARush (= 3 dead enemies = completely ridiculous). Mattock is powerful on any class, but Vanguards can exploit this bug with Heavy Charge - without, the Mattock loses some of its appeal. If you do want to use the Mattock on Vanguard, take Area Charge to counter this bug. That's what I'd do if BW removes shotguns, if not, it's always the Claymore for me

Evi better? Than what? Not the Claymore - the only OSOK shotgun in ME2?

Oh and I take the Katana any day (before getting the Claymore); looks better, sounds better and - except versus armor - is equal or better than Evi.

[lolwut666]

Mattock Vanguard sounds like an interesting build, but I can't say I feel like trying it out.

The Claymore is just too fun to use.

@Bozorgmehr

I'll have to try out the Katana. I just assumed it's the worst shotgun so I dumped it for the Eviscerator or the Scimitar as soon as I had the chance.

Next time I play a Vanguard from scratch, I'll use the Katana.

Is it really that good, though?

Modifié par lolwut666, 05 mai 2011 - 10:46 .

[Bozorgmehr]

Katana is more responsive, has a large 5 shot clip and does 50% extra damage versus shields and barriers (+100% with 2 SG Upgrades). A perfect (head)shot will OSOK normal (shield/barrier) enemies up to ~level 15 (at which point the Claymore becomes available).

Evi is better against armor, but you'll only have to fight lots of armored foes on Mordin's RM; on Jack, Grunt, Garrus' RM and Horizon, you've to deal with shields/barriers primarily. the Katana is equally powerful. One shot plus melee will kill enemies as fast as with Evi.

The insane bonus versus shields also makes the Katana a highly effective ammo power shotgun. Very few pellets are required to take down shields, leaving most pellets to trigger Inferno-/Cryo Ammo effects.

Katana isn't a miracle weapon or something, but it's very good and definitely not as bad as some folks might think. Try it and see for yourself

[Waltzingbear]

The Katana's damage against shields is 220*1.5 = 330 .
Eviscerator's damage against shields is 294.4*1.25 = 368 .

Unless I'm missing something that results in a higher damage. The difference between 3 rounds and 5 is minor as you'd probably reload before that. The Evisc. is also more accurate and deals more damage at medium range.

Personally I just love that gun.

[AK404]

I noticed the qualifying statement"+100% with 2 SG Upgrades." It's not incredibly difficult to obtain two SG upgrades, and Bozo is referring mostly to early missions, when OSOKs are fairly rare.

Also, as strong as the Mattock is, Kronner does bring up a very important point: if you're considering DPS/trigger pull, nothing beats a Claymore at point-blank range.  Given that close-range is where the Vanguard is strongest, why would you want to use a mid-range weapon there?  I can understand using Charge as a modified storm (because it's a cool idea, taking over a key position and eliminating an enemy at the same time), but it also means changing your playing style in small, subtle ways.

*shrug*

Modifié par AK404, 05 mai 2011 - 03:49 .

[Locutus_of_BORG]

CodyMelch wrote...

Single shots that are capable of one shoting the Harbinger Collctor . Combined with the reload cancel feature the Claymore can fire continuously. As for the Revenant? Again in the hands of an hardened Adrenaline rush soldier it does far more damage. This has been proven for the fact that it is a full auto weapon and when put on heightened it does far less damage than it does on hardned.

But for a Vanguard? Yea the mattock is the better assault rifle. But for any vanguard that knows how to utilize the shotty efficiently. They will find that even the eviserator is better.

The Revvy definitely does not outdamage the Mattock under any circumstance. It does less damage per shot as the Mattock, and shoots slower than the Mattock under both forms of ARush. What the Revvy does do is provide more continous fire (autofire, larger clip size), which makes it easier to run'n'gun when under fire. The Revvy's advantages over the Mattock are purely in handling quirks against certain targets in certain situations (e.g.: Praetorian), IMO.

Modifié par Locutus_of_BORG, 05 mai 2011 - 06:01 .

[Cody]

Locutus_of_BORG wrote...

CodyMelch wrote...

Single shots that are capable of one shoting the Harbinger Collctor . Combined with the reload cancel feature the Claymore can fire continuously. As for the Revenant? Again in the hands of an hardened Adrenaline rush soldier it does far more damage. This has been proven for the fact that it is a full auto weapon and when put on heightened it does far less damage than it does on hardned.

But for a Vanguard? Yea the mattock is the better assault rifle. But for any vanguard that knows how to utilize the shotty efficiently. They will find that even the eviserator is better.

The Revvy definitely does not outdamage the Mattock under any circumstance. It does less damage per shot as the Mattock, and shoots slower than the Mattock under both forms of ARush. What the Revvy does do is provide more continous fire (autofire, larger clip size), which makes it easier to run'n'gun when under fire. The Revvy's advantages over the Mattock are purely in handling quirks against certain targets in certain situations (e.g.: Praetorian), IMO.

No. It has been proven that auto firing guns such as the Revy and the viper, do far more damage on hardened AR. Mainly because it doesn't slow down time so much and so lets the revy unleash its full potential. Thus allowing it to do more damage than the Mattock if it was used on hardened AR.

The mattock does do more damage than the Rev if it is used with heightened AR because it is a slower firing gun. Going only as fast as you press the trigger. So in other words, guns like the Widow,Claymore,Mattock,etc are better with heightened AR.

[AK404]

Cody, the base damage of a Mattock is 50.4. The base damage of a Revenant is 21.3. Just so we're clear on this, round for round, the Mattock is harder-hitting than the Revenant.  This also means that it strips defenses faster and procs added effects more often, but that is neither here nor there.

Now, the Mattock is not a slow-firing gun, it is a very fast firing semi-automatic, which means its ROF is entirely dependent on how fast you can feather the trigger.  (Try it sometime, just get a Mattock or Shuriken and tap the firing button as fast as you can.)

Additionally, its ROF is not affected at all by Adrenaline Rush.  Like zero, zilch, nothing: you fire a Mattock just as fast under the effects of Adrenaline Rush as you do out of it.  Don't worry, this came as a complete shock to me when I read about it.

Thus, it is possible to unload all 16 rounds from the magazine into an enemy during Adrenaline Rush; it doesn't even matter what flavor of AR we're talking about, what kind of damage bonuses the rifle has, or even the damage bonuses from AR: at more than double the damage per shot, the Mattock will outdamage the Revenant.

I'm not too good at math, but with no damage bonuses whatsoever, the Mattock has just inflicted ~807 damage on an enemy in less than three seconds of game time (as adrenaline rush lasts 5 seconds and lengthens time perception by roughly 50%).

In order to match that, the Revenant has to fire 38 shots in that time, roughly 13 shots/second in real time...under the effects of Adrenaline Rush (which, I am sad to say, it can not do because unlike the Mattock, the Revenant is affected by the time dilation effect of Adrenaline Rush) (Really, count the shots).

Now throw in the damage modifiers.

Modifié par AK404, 05 mai 2011 - 08:15 .

[Cody]

AK404 wrote...

Cody, the base damage of a Mattock is 50.4. The base damage of a Revenant is 21.3. Just so we're clear on this, round for round, the Mattock is harder-hitting than the Revenant.  This also means that it strips defenses faster and procs added effects more often, but that is neither here nor there.

Now, the Mattock is not a slow-firing gun, it is a very fast firing semi-automatic, which means its ROF is entirely dependent on how fast you can feather the trigger.  (Try it sometime, just get a Mattock or Shuriken and tap the firing button as fast as you can.)

Additionally, its ROF is not affected at all by Adrenaline Rush.  Like zero, zilch, nothing: you fire a Mattock just as fast under the effects of Adrenaline Rush as you do out of it.  Don't worry, this came as a complete shock to me when I read about it.

Thus, it is possible to unload all 16 rounds from the magazine into an enemy during Adrenaline Rush; it doesn't even matter what flavor of AR we're talking about, what kind of damage bonuses the rifle has, or even the damage bonuses from AR: at more than double the damage per shot, the Mattock will outdamage the Revenant.

I'm not too good at math, but with no damage bonuses whatsoever, the Mattock has just inflicted ~807 damage on an enemy in less than three seconds of game time (as adrenaline rush lasts 5 seconds and lengthens time perception by roughly 50%).

In order to match that, the Revenant has to fire 38 shots in that time, roughly 13 shots/second in real time...under the effects of Adrenaline Rush (which, I am sad to say, it can not do because unlike the Mattock, the Revenant is affected by the time dilation effect of Adrenaline Rush) (Really, count the shots).

Now throw in the damage modifiers.

First off. Thats not what I meant when I said "slow firing". When I said slow firing I meant that it fires as fast as you pull the trigger. But didn't remember the name for that.

As it is, no gun is better than another. It depends on your playstyle.

[termokanden]

I decided to check out the Mattock once again recently, just to see if it is as overpowered as I remember it. And yes it is. It is extremely obvious that it beats the other assault rifles. It simply has superior DPS, particularly with Adrenaline Rush. The ammo could have been a problem, but considering how quickly things die it really isn't.

Modifié par termokanden, 09 mai 2011 - 12:27 .

[goofyomnivore]

The Mattock is broken on Soldiers and Vanguards IMO. Any other class it is a pretty balanced gun, but the slow down and the Mattock ingnoring it make it a god weapon.

[Waltzingbear]

CodyMelch wrote...

As it is, no gun is better than another. It depends on your playstyle.

Only because the definition of 'better' could vary. If you look at how much damage per time a gun can do the Mattock beats them all (assuming you know how to aim).

I don't know how much coding this would have required, but if the Mattock had some kind of 'heat management' mechanism it would have worked much better and would have given a 'true' sniper rifle in an assualt rifle feel, allowing you to take enemies very fast but with a penalty that would restrict continuous fire, like unloading three clips on a YMIR as you can do now.
This is unlike the Incisor; your rate of fire wouldn't be limited but you'd risk overheating the weapon if you'd spend an entire clip in four seconds.

I would hate to see a simple damage nerf to that weapon in ME3.

Modifié par Waltzingbear, 09 mai 2011 - 01:47 .

[HTTP 404]

I think its just the Mattock thats too good....

Mattock Engineer
Mattock Adept
Mattock Infiltrator
Mattock Sentinal
Mattock Samara....

[Clonedzero]

HTTP 404 wrote...

I think its just the Mattock thats too good....

Mattock Engineer
Mattock Adept
Mattock Infiltrator
Mattock Sentinal
Mattock Samara....

yeah i WAS going to get the firepower pack but decided against it because i didnt want an overpowered weapon.

[CroGamer002]

CodyMelch wrote...

lazuli wrote...

CodyMelch wrote...

Ahglock wrote...

We all know the mattok is broken, so why is it so hard to accept that it breaks things.   

Because it isn't? There are many weapons that can keep up with it. The revenant is far more suited to soldiers who use hardened AR rush. While the widow and claymore out damage it by far. It's just good. Not the best.

The Widow and Claymore only outdamage the Mattock if you're counting single shots, and that gets hazy when you consider that the Claymore fires multiple pellets and not, in fact, a single shot.  The Revenant is an enjoyable weapon, but it lacks the safety and reliability that the Mattock can provide... from any distance on the battlefield.

I cannot speak to the effectiveness of a Mattock in a Vanguard's hands, as I have yet to try it.  I'm sold on the Viper.

Single shots that are capable of one shoting the Harbinger Collctor . Combined with the reload cancel feature the Claymore can fire continuously. As for the Revenant? Again in the hands of an hardened Adrenaline rush soldier it does far more damage. This has been proven for the fact that it is a full auto weapon and when put on heightened it does far less damage than it does on hardned.

But for a Vanguard? Yea the mattock is the better assault rifle. But for any vanguard that knows how to utilize the shotty efficiently. They will find that even the eviserator is better.


Also to OP. Since you wovs the Mattock so much..then he should post this as much as possible!

*snip*

Modifié par Mesina2, 09 mai 2011 - 02:13 .

[Waltzingbear]

Being more powerful means you can do more crazy things, like charging three enemies with a Soldier, sniping with a pistol, or using a shotgun at medium range (who would have thought ).

Don't just dismiss it as trivializing the game. Even if it does you can always not use them.

[termokanden]

Noobtubes.. I love it. We need Danger Close in Mass Effect 3

[Aynien]

termokanden wrote...

Noobtubes.. I love it. We need Danger Close in Mass Effect 3

That would be the grenade launcher...try to charge with it as a vanguard, and you will get the true feeling of a noob tube ;P