129 réponses à ce sujet

[AK404]

CodyMelch wrote...

AK404 wrote...

...

Now, the Mattock is not a slow-firing gun, it is a very fast firing semi-automatic, which means its ROF is entirely dependent on how fast you can feather the trigger.  (Try it sometime, just get a Mattock or Shuriken and tap the firing button as fast as you can.)

...

Thus, it is possible to unload all 16 rounds from the magazine into an enemy during Adrenaline Rush; it doesn't even matter what flavor of AR we're talking about, what kind of damage bonuses the rifle has, or even the damage bonuses from AR: at more than double the damage per shot, the Mattock will outdamage the Revenant.

...

First off. Thats not what I meant when I said "slow firing". When I said slow firing I meant that it fires as fast as you pull the trigger. But didn't remember the name for that.

As it is, no gun is better than another. It depends on your playstyle.

Apparently, you're not a very attentive reader, as I just handed you the term for the definition you were thinking of.

The word is 'semi-automatic.'  I may have confused you by using the words 'fast-firing' before the term, but something tells me that you have never put the Mattock through its paces.  While playstyle does matter, the Mattock is quite clearly a broken weapon.

What breaks the Mattock is that there is no limit to its potential rate of fire; everything hinges on how fast you can feather (or pull) the trigger.  Try it: you can do this with the Shuriken and Mattock.  Feathering with the Shuriken allows you to overlap its three-round bursts, while feathering with the Mattock will simply allow you to fire as fast as you pull the trigger.

If you are comparing the Revenant versus the Mattock under the effects of Adrenaline Rush, the Mattock wins, every time.  However, this is about the Vanguard, so I would consider this particular discussion to be over.

-

Now in the hands of a Vanguard, it's fairly good - it has great accuracy, hits hard, good range, and more than enough shots per clip - but it seems to me that the Mattock acts more as an extension of the heavy pistol with a more responsive trigger and larger magazine.

I haven't given the vanguard with a sniper rifle a go yet, but something tells me that they would play similarly

Again, just my opinion.

Modifié par AK404, 09 mai 2011 - 06:35 .

[Ahglock]

CodyMelch wrote...


No. It has been proven that auto firing guns such as the Revy and the viper, do far more damage on hardened AR. Mainly because it doesn't slow down time so much and so lets the revy unleash its full potential. Thus allowing it to do more damage than the Mattock if it was used on hardened AR.

The mattock does do more damage than the Rev if it is used with heightened AR because it is a slower firing gun. Going only as fast as you press the trigger. So in other words, guns like the Widow,Claymore,Mattock,etc are better with heightened AR.

While it is true that autofiring guns work better in AR, the issue is the Mattok is effectively bugged.  It does not suffer the slowdowns that other semi auto guns do under AR, and can fire insanely fast under either AR. So highest base damage, plus bugged rate of fire= brokenly powerful gun.  

[Cody]

AK404 wrote...

CodyMelch wrote...

AK404 wrote...

...

Now, the Mattock is not a slow-firing gun, it is a very fast firing semi-automatic, which means its ROF is entirely dependent on how fast you can feather the trigger.  (Try it sometime, just get a Mattock or Shuriken and tap the firing button as fast as you can.)

...

Thus, it is possible to unload all 16 rounds from the magazine into an enemy during Adrenaline Rush; it doesn't even matter what flavor of AR we're talking about, what kind of damage bonuses the rifle has, or even the damage bonuses from AR: at more than double the damage per shot, the Mattock will outdamage the Revenant.

...

First off. Thats not what I meant when I said "slow firing". When I said slow firing I meant that it fires as fast as you pull the trigger. But didn't remember the name for that.

As it is, no gun is better than another. It depends on your playstyle.

Apparently, you're not a very attentive reader, as I just handed you the term for the definition you were thinking of.

The word is 'semi-automatic.'  I may have confused you by using the words 'fast-firing' before the term, but something tells me that you have never put the Mattock through its paces.  While playstyle does matter, the Mattock is quite clearly a broken weapon.

What breaks the Mattock is that there is no limit to its potential rate of fire; everything hinges on how fast you can feather (or pull) the trigger.  Try it: you can do this with the Shuriken and Mattock.  Feathering with the Shuriken allows you to overlap its three-round bursts, while feathering with the Mattock will simply allow you to fire as fast as you pull the trigger.

If you are comparing the Revenant versus the Mattock under the effects of Adrenaline Rush, the Mattock wins, every time.  However, this is about the Vanguard, so I would consider this particular discussion to be over.

-

Now in the hands of a Vanguard, it's fairly good - it has great accuracy, hits hard, good range, and more than enough shots per clip - but it seems to me that the Mattock acts more as an extension of the heavy pistol with a more responsive trigger and larger magazine.

I haven't given the vanguard with a sniper rifle a go yet, but something tells me that they would play similarly

Again, just my opinion.

For one, drop the attitude and read. I said I DIDN'T know. Which means that I now knew what I meant after you said the name. If I still didn't know what it as I would have said that I don't know.

For 2, I have put the mattock through it's paces. For I use it with my vanguard agains't enemies who are in a position where I cannot charge them or for some rare reason, I am out of ammo for my shotgun.

Lastly there is a limit to the mattocks ROF. As shown here:

[JaegerBane]

termokanden wrote...

I decided to check out the Mattock
once again recently, just to see if it is as overpowered as I remember
it. And yes it is. It is extremely obvious that it beats the other
assault rifles. It simply has superior DPS, particularly with Adrenaline
Rush. The ammo could have been a problem, but considering how quickly
things die it really isn't.

That, and the fact that the supposed balancing factor - ammo - on the Mattock patently doesn't work, as it picks up so many shots per clip that you're looking at replenishing between quarter to a third of your total ammo supply every time your run over a clip. That's like picking up 4-5 shots per clip for the Widow. It's ammo supply is no limit whatsoever, except in very contrived situations where your enemy is so large that it can withstand all the Mattock ammo you can throw at it, or you're stuck in position.

strive wrote...

The Mattock is broken on Soldiers and Vanguards IMO. Any other class it is a pretty balanced gun, but the slow down and the Mattock ingnoring it make it a god weapon.

It's definitely broken into a million pieces for the Vanguard and Soldier, for similar reasons that pistol on ME1 was - it's balanced for semi-auto firing but fires faster than auto weapons under AR/slowdown.

It's still not that balanced for anything else though - it's combination of accuracy, rate of fire and damage per shot means that it renders heavy pistols, shotguns, other assault rifles and all sniper rifles barring the Widow obsolete and as mentioned, it picks up so much ammo per clip that there's no reason to use anything else.

I really hope the devs spend a bit more time balancing stuff in ME3, as stuff like this just kills all the fun in the game. I actually think my Revenant/Viper wielding Adept is far more balanced than anyone wielding a Mattock.

[AK404]

CodyMelch wrote...

For one, drop the attitude and read. I said I DIDN'T know. Which means that I now knew what I meant after you said the name. If I still didn't know what it as I would have said that I don't know.

For 2, I have put the mattock through it's paces. For I use it with my vanguard agains't enemies who are in a position where I cannot charge them or for some rare reason, I am out of ammo for my shotgun.

Lastly there is a limit to the mattocks ROF.

When presenting evidence, it helps to reivew already-existing tests.  For example, here's one from one of our regular posters.



You wanted to compare the Revenant versus the Mattock.  Your argument was:

"It has been proven that auto firing guns such as the Revy and the viper, do far more damage on hardened AR. Mainly because it doesn't slow down time so much and so lets the revy unleash its full potential. Thus allowing it to do more damage than the Mattock if it was used on hardened AR." (emphasis mine)

This is the point I have contention with.  I will concede that there is a limit to the Mattock's ROF: it is semi-automatic.  (I believe the video you posted as a demonstration of the Mattock's ROF used a rapid fire option.)  However,the ROF - the speed at which the player can feather the trigger - is constant whether or not the soldier is under the effects of Adrenaline Rush.  Again, it doesn't matter what flavor of adrenaline rush is being used.  It still gets the damage bonus while keeping its original rate of fire.

I will admit that I was wrong about the speed of the Revenant under the effects of AR: it was faster than I recall.  However, it still does not outdamage the Mattock.  This is not an endorsement of the Mattock, just a statement of perceivable fact.

And again, this is a soldier-focused argument, not a vanguard-focused one.

[AK404]

 I agree with your assessment, Jaeger.  I like the idea behind the Mattock - an accurate semi-automatic rifle with higher damage per bullet - but I'm not particularly fond of all of its 'little' oversights that pile up into a huge overpowered mess.

[JaegerBane]

AK404 wrote...

 I agree with your assessment, Jaeger.  I like the idea behind the Mattock - an accurate semi-automatic rifle with higher damage per bullet - but I'm not particularly fond of all of its 'little' oversights that pile up into a huge overpowered mess.

I liked the idea when I first heard of it back when the Firepower Pack was released, but to this day I don't really understand what Bioware were thinking when they designed it. We already had a perfectly servicable Battle Rifle which did it's job without being silly, but for some reason they felt they needed to make a new Battle Rifle that also functioned as a heavy pistol and a sniper rifle and semi-auto shotgun. It's like they were trying to ruin the balance.

Amusingly, I remember Christina mentioning that they were 'trying to disrupt the balance of the weapons' with this pack, which had me scratching my head. Most of the time when screw-ups like this happen, they're unintentional.

[AK404]

I think they forgot to test it under the effects of Adrenaline Rush, assuming that its ROF would be affected.

I'm not one to complain, though: that gun was the only reason I made it through my first Insanity run.

[JaegerBane]

AK404 wrote...

I think they forgot to test it under the effects of Adrenaline Rush, assuming that its ROF would be affected.

I'm not so sure - in terms of max RPM the Mattock has a faster rate of fire than all but two of the of fully auto non-heavy weapons in the game. Most semi-auto guns have rates of fire between 100-300 rpm. There's no physical way to reach the 750 rpm cap without using some sort of slow down. That implies they'd tested it under AR, as there's no point in having an RPM so high otherwise.

[AK404]

That's...interesting. Here I thought that Bioware wanted to replicate the double-tap effect.

Incidentally, and completely OT, but where do I find these 'support/romance' images that I keep seeing in sigs?

[Dave666]

AK404 wrote...

That's...interesting. Here I thought that Bioware wanted to replicate the double-tap effect.

Incidentally, and completely OT, but where do I find these 'support/romance' images that I keep seeing in sigs?

Character Forum, just look in their respective threads, they're usually on the first page, if not simply ask in the thread.

[PrinceLionheart]

Hate to necro, but since I've played this game to death I figured it was finally time to experiment a little. I decided to mod to play as a Revenant!Vanguard since it works so well as a CQs weapon.

[Samurai_Wahoo]

Wow, all these talks about Scimitars, Mattocks, and Claymores make me wonder if I am playing the Vanguard wrong. I am a Tempest junkie on my Vanguard and that is the only way I can charge and not reload. Sorry, don't mean to derail the topic.

Modifié par Samurai_Wahoo, 21 mai 2011 - 08:26 .

[mcsupersport]

@Samurai Wahoo

If you like the tempest then the Eviscerater or more likely the Scimitar will be your cup of tea for Vanguards. The Tempest is ok and is a nice change but can't compare to the output of damage a well run Eviscerater or Scimitar can do. For an off the wall choice that also works the Mattock is always overpowered and with the extra damage capable by Heavy charge slowdown, it takes it further up the overpowered scale. Once you get used to a difference in play you should love it, as a further note, you can take all three guns after the Collector ship, toting the Mattock, Scimitar, and tempest for all around fun play.

[Samurai_Wahoo]

I have used the Scimitar and I prefer it if I decide to focus on SG. The 1 shotters don't really do it for me because I do not have a steady enough hand. I figure it is a different style of play. I watch all the videos and people charge away, I just can't do that. Yeah, I can do well at times, but there are far too many reloads.

I give the enemies an early dose of Tempest fire along with squad abilities, charge, Tempest bath again, and well, whatever I need to close out the fire fight.

[Clonedzero]

Samurai_Wahoo wrote...

Wow, all these talks about Scimitars, Mattocks, and Claymores make me wonder if I am playing the Vanguard wrong. I am a Tempest junkie on my Vanguard and that is the only way I can charge and not reload. Sorry, don't mean to derail the topic.

if it works for you then its not wrong.

i use the avenger as my primary weapon on my vanguard, and the SMG as my main before i get AR training.
i dont even use charge as my main power, i use pull and shockwave more than charge, i still charge though.

dont feel pressured to play the same way as everyone else. personally i cant stand the claymore.

[Samurai_Wahoo]

@ Conedzero

Yeah, that pressure went away once I figured out that playing kamikaze just does not work for me.

[Cody]

Clonedzero wrote...

Samurai_Wahoo wrote...

Wow, all these talks about Scimitars, Mattocks, and Claymores make me wonder if I am playing the Vanguard wrong. I am a Tempest junkie on my Vanguard and that is the only way I can charge and not reload. Sorry, don't mean to derail the topic.

if it works for you then its not wrong.

i use the avenger as my primary weapon on my vanguard, and the SMG as my main before i get AR training.
i dont even use charge as my main power, i use pull and shockwave more than charge, i still charge though.

dont feel pressured to play the same way as everyone else. personally i cant stand the claymore.

Sounds like you'd be better off playing as an adept then mate.

[Samurai_Wahoo]

I play all the characters.... what are trying to say?

[lazuli]

Samurai_Wahoo wrote...

@ Conedzero

Yeah, that pressure went away once I figured out that playing kamikaze just does not work for me.

If I may, I'd like to suggest trying to play "kamikaze" after completing the Suicide Mission.  Re-spec yourself for optimal close combat play and mop up a few N7 missions.  With all of the necessary upgrades under your belt and a supportive squad, you might surprise yourself with just how good you are at this "kamikaze" style.  That's what happened for me in Lair of the Shadow Broker.

And although you're not asking for advice, I'll offer one more unsolicited tidbit.  Try pausing the game as you come out of a Charge.  It gives you time to line up a headshot and find your next target (or an escape route).

Modifié par lazuli, 22 mai 2011 - 12:57 .

[Cody]

Samurai_Wahoo wrote...

I play all the characters.... what are trying to say?

.....Check the quotations again dude. I was replying to Clonedzero

Modifié par CodyMelch, 22 mai 2011 - 01:20 .

[Samurai_Wahoo]

@ lazuli

Yeah, I have done the whole pause thing and yes it is useful and may save me a reload here and there..... it just feels too unnatural for me. 3 Vanguard playthroughs and 1 of those was a full on shottie focus, balls to the wall, caution to the wind style and I am simply not good at it. 4th playthrough, Tempest junkie zero deaths (I am about to get Samara), not as agressive as the kamikaze style, but far more aggressive then any other class that I play.

I just pick and choose my spots a wee bit more carefully and smart.

[mcsupersport]

I have played a Claymore Vanguard, even on Insanity, but it is NOT my favorite style of character. I have yet to try the Mattock/AR vanguard as I usually go Viper along with Eviscerator, but I know how good the Mattock is and am planning one next run. I don't know if I will really enjoy it because even on the Adept I am currently running it is a bit too strong most of the time. The only saving grace on an Adept is the ammo does limit it just a hair, otherwise it would be totally borked even on that class.

[Samurai_Wahoo]

CodyMelch wrote...

Samurai_Wahoo wrote...

I play all the characters.... what are trying to say?

.....Check the quotations again dude. I was replying to Clonedzero

My apologies

[JaegerBane]

CodyMelch wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...

Samurai_Wahoo wrote...

Wow, all these talks about Scimitars, Mattocks, and Claymores make me wonder if I am playing the Vanguard wrong. I am a Tempest junkie on my Vanguard and that is the only way I can charge and not reload. Sorry, don't mean to derail the topic.

if it works for you then its not wrong.

i use the avenger as my primary weapon on my vanguard, and the SMG as my main before i get AR training.
i dont even use charge as my main power, i use pull and shockwave more than charge, i still charge though.

dont feel pressured to play the same way as everyone else. personally i cant stand the claymore.

Sounds like you'd be better off playing as an adept then mate.

Agreed. If you're not going to use Charge often then there's virtually no point playing a Vanguard. If you're not Charging in every fight then you're basically playing a gimped Adept with no explosions and long cooldowns.