28 réponses à ce sujet

[DireHeroX]

I'm a little concernced about the utility of the mage specializations. In particular, it seems difficult to stack relevant abilities together for powerful effects. The mage specializations seem to be about diversity, rather than synergy.

For instance:

Shapeshifting probably doesn't utilize Arcane Warrior's bonuses while shapeshifted (we also don't know if any equipment bonuses shift over yet, do we?) So building a combat oriented mage (who buffs up beforehand, I'm assuming buffs carry to shapeshifted form) might be tougher than usual. Spells are also off limits while shifted, so stacking it with something like Spirit Healer or Blood Mage means that you're always using an either/or decision with your specialization.

Blood Mage and Spirit Healer are probably a good offense/defense type spec, but again, there's no stacking here for powerful effects, and it doesn't seem incredibly good to me from a roleplaying perspective (however I'm sure some adventuring soul out there could make it work with a Fallen Paladin type story).

Arcane Warrior also doesn't seem to stack well with either of the casting specs as you're still utilizing an either/or perspective. Either you're beating bad guys up, or healing your own folks. Healing while getting hit (as an Arcane Warrior should be in the thick of battle I imagine) doesn't seem to be the best strategy.

Blood Mage's costs (using your own health) doesn't look to promising with Arcane Warrior either, as I'd hate to be burning through health with something swinging at me.

It looks like Blood Mage/Spirit Healer is going to give the most "at the ready" power to a mage.

I hope I'm wrong about some of this stuff, as I'd really like to play a Shapeshifter. Either way, everyone will make their specializations work the way they want, but powerbuilders might be hurting with mages.

This is obviously all speculative, as we don't have a lot of information right now. What do you all think?

[Keyser Soeze]

You dont need two specializations that's my take



You only get around 23~ spells in the game and there are 68 "normal" spells and 16 specialization spells. There are many good spells i want from the normal spells.



And as you mention many combination's don't stack very well so simply put i probably wont, I think il go for a spirit healer with lots of AoE spells

[Paydirt]

Hmmm, typical "mages should be gods thread"... I'm guessing you were spoiled by 3.5 D&D and want spellcasters to be better warriors in combat than a pure warrior would be? I knew it.

[DireHeroX]

Paydirt wrote...

Hmmm, typical "mages should be gods thread"... I'm guessing you were spoiled by 3.5 D&D and want spellcasters to be better warriors in combat than a pure warrior would be? I knew it.

Not at all. I'm just saying that of the specializations they do have, two (Shapeshifter, Arcane Warrior) put them somewhere near the front lines, where the other specializations don't shine as much, but those that do put them in combat don't stack well together, thus diminishing their effectiveness.

Mages shouldn't do armed combat better than warriors. I'm just concerned about the focus of the specializations.

[Joel171]

I found 3.0 wizards to be way more God-like in later levels than 3.5 mages were. Insane.



Yeah, I'm with Keyser on this one. If they don't mesh well, or make any sense, then don't get them. Personally, I don't play mages because I think they're dress-wearing sissies. That's just me, though. You're free to disagree. Which I'm sure you do.

[Zilod]

BM/SH looks quite good sinergy wise, SH offer regeneration and heals that can go well to fuel your spells when needed



SH/AW also looks nice, kinda a D&D cleric, probably without the offence of a real warrior but possibly with good defence and healing



BM/AW probably will have not same synergy as SH/AW but still you will generally get a more sturdy mage, personally i dont think that AW = frontline, maybe you can build such char, but probably will be more geared to get less dmg when you get hit by a mob or aoe that also mean more health to cast (or just to not die )



for shifter it seem more tricky... a shifted mage cant cast and probably equip will not merge into the form. maybe some AW buffs will influence the form but generally i agree with you that is more a way to make the mage more versatile (and with high drawbacks) rather than "stronger"

[NewYears1978]

I'm not sure which way to take my mage..I don't like healers so much as it's boring to just sit back and heal..then again...whatever gets me through the battle. I like shapeshifter too but I want to have some variety..so as not to get bored.

In The Calling..Fiona was a healer, but also used Primal and I think maybe Creation spells..so I guess she was a mix of each type..?

Still..undecided for me.

[DireHeroX]

NewYears1978 wrote...

I'm not sure which way to take my mage..I don't like healers so much as it's boring to just sit back and heal..then again...whatever gets me through the battle. I like shapeshifter too but I want to have some variety..so as not to get bored.
In The Calling..Fiona was a healer, but also used Primal and I think maybe Creation spells..so I guess she was a mix of each type..?
Still..undecided for me.

I think this is the struggle a lot of would-be mages are going through right now.

[Joel171]

Fiona was an Arcane Warrior. She had a heal. All mages can get a basic Heal.



Well, I say she was an arcane warrior. I don't know for SURE. But she was wearing chain mail which is out of the ordinary. And to me that signifies importance. So I'm thinking Arcane Warrior.

[DireHeroX]

Zilod wrote...

BM/SH looks quite good sinergy wise, SH offer regeneration and heals that can go well to fuel your spells when needed
 

This one might be extremely difficult to roleplay, for those who care about that. Benevolent Spirit, heal my heinous wounds from casting blood-fueled magic.

[JackDresden]

I assume the game has had a lot of play testing. Of course we won't know for sure for ourselves how it stacks out until we get to see this in practice their are just to many variables involved in this one.



That said as I say play testing should have made it obvious if people thought the Mage specs. didn't work.

[Taleroth]

DireHeroX wrote...

Zilod wrote...

BM/SH looks quite good sinergy wise, SH offer regeneration and heals that can go well to fuel your spells when needed
 

This one might be extremely difficult to roleplay, for those who care about that. Benevolent Spirit, heal my heinous wounds from casting blood-fueled magic.

The bigger problem I see is the liklihood that you spend more mana casting regen spells than you save by using blood magic.

Saving 6 mana by spending 10 HP casting blood magic only to spend 7 mana to recover than 10 HP.

[NewYears1978]

Joel171 wrote...

Fiona was an Arcane Warrior. She had a heal. All mages can get a basic Heal.

Well, I say she was an arcane warrior. I don't know for SURE. But she was wearing chain mail which is out of the ordinary. And to me that signifies importance. So I'm thinking Arcane Warrior.

Well, possibly..but if she was supposed to be an Arcane Warrior I would think at some point she would have fought with a weapon..not just magic...though not necessarily.

Anyways....Still...only a few days to figure out what to do...othewise it will just be winging it as I play..which usually ends up in a restart.

[Zilod]

DireHeroX wrote...

Zilod wrote...

BM/SH looks quite good sinergy wise, SH offer regeneration and heals that can go well to fuel your spells when needed
 

This one might be extremely difficult to roleplay, for those who care about that. Benevolent Spirit, heal my heinous wounds from casting blood-fueled magic.

it depends by how is it presented into the game...  but i dont see anything that bad to fuel magic with blood, you can even see as a sacrifice, you use you own health to call spirits to heal your comrades, if you dont learn it by a deamon (asking the soul of your comrades) i dont think will be that bad to justify for RP purpose

also even spirit healers use knowledges that come from the blight (if i remember right) or that anyway influence the spirit world so is not that far off too.

eheh but maybe is because i had BM in vanguard (where is an offensive healer) so i'm alredy used to BM/SH concept

[NewYears1978]

DireHeroX wrote...

Zilod wrote...

BM/SH looks quite good sinergy wise, SH offer regeneration and heals that can go well to fuel your spells when needed
 

This one might be extremely difficult to roleplay, for those who care about that. Benevolent Spirit, heal my heinous wounds from casting blood-fueled magic.

Agreed..I won't even go Blood as I don't like to play evil characters..or even immoral ones...

[Necroe-]

imho, its kind of a shame that the specialization talents go from your normal talent pool and not from a specific one

[Zilod]

Taleroth wrote...

The bigger problem I see is the liklihood that you spend more mana casting regen spells than you save by using blood magic.

Saving 6 mana by spending 10 HP casting blood magic only to spend 7 mana to recover than 10 HP.

i think the HP regenartion of SH is not a spell but a permanent effect

also it really depends by how the game is balanced but consider if you can spend hps to heal group (and so yourself) you really risk to get a free, no cost heal, even if you will be not capable to heal yourself enought when you cast using blood then health become a pool to manage

everytime you cast a group heal and you are not wounded you waste the healing on yourself, here that a BM can instead fuel his "spell pool" and then proceed to "refill" himself when he heals the group,

to me BM/SH looks extremely powerfull on paper, to the point to possibly be op (chain group heals for free?, unlimited mana pool?), probably devs got their measures to not make it too powerfull but still i expect it to be an extremely good combo

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

NewYears1978 wrote...

I'm not sure which way to take my mage..I don't like healers so much as it's boring to just sit back and heal..then again...whatever gets me through the battle. I like shapeshifter too but I want to have some variety..so as not to get bored.
In The Calling..Fiona was a healer, but also used Primal and I think maybe Creation spells..so I guess she was a mix of each type..?
Still..undecided for me.

Very much the same for me, I wasn't really planing on taking healing spells, but after watching a bit of the Warden event, it appears that even on normal difficulty the game can be quite the challenge (which I think is awesome btw) So I may be forced into taking some healing, or have another caster always in the party dedicated to that task.
So even after reading all the skill trees, I'm still very undecided on which way to take this gal's first playthrough. Which in a way is good I suppose as unlike past game's set in the D&D universe, it'll be a completely new learning experience on what works, and what doesn't.. Can't say that won't be a pretty neat experience in and of itself.

[Joel171]

Zilod wrote...

DireHeroX wrote...

Zilod wrote...

BM/SH looks quite good sinergy wise, SH offer regeneration and heals that can go well to fuel your spells when needed
 

This one might be extremely difficult to roleplay, for those who care about that. Benevolent Spirit, heal my heinous wounds from casting blood-fueled magic.

it depends by how is it presented into the game...  but i dont see anything that bad to fuel magic with blood, you can even see as a sacrifice, you use you own health to call spirits to heal your comrades, if you dont learn it by a deamon (asking the soul of your comrades) i dont think will be that bad to justify for RP purpose

Well, traditionally the Orleasian Magisters used the blood of innocents to fuel their blood magic. Thus it's gained a bad rap. Also, people feel there is a certain inherent evil in controlling someone else's actions through magical means. In that same vein (hehe pun), self mutilation is often looked down upon.

[halogod1986]

I'm sort of in the same place as the OP. I'm planning on playing a mage through my first run and I'm having a hard time selecting my two specializations. I see a lot of suggestions to simply not select a second specialization, but what does that gain? As far as I understand, selecting a specialization isn't like it was in Baldur's Gate (and other D&D-based games). You don't sacrifice anything for the gain. Passing on a second specialization for the sole purpose of role-playing seems impractical to me. I realize others gain more enjoyment from simply role-playing, but I'm not one to gimp myself without a tangible benefit.

[Taleroth]

halogod1986 wrote...

I'm sort of in the same place as the OP. I'm planning on playing a mage through my first run and I'm having a hard time selecting my two specializations. I see a lot of suggestions to simply not select a second specialization, but what does that gain? As far as I understand, selecting a specialization isn't like it was in Baldur's Gate (and other D&D-based games). You don't sacrifice anything for the gain. Passing on a second specialization for the sole purpose of role-playing seems impractical to me. I realize others gain more enjoyment from simply role-playing, but I'm not one to gimp myself without a tangible benefit.

Most people talk about taking specializations for the talents/spells.  You'll gimp yourself a little by wasting a point on one of those that you don't use.  Though the passive benefit of the specializations doesn't hurt without using that talent/spell point.

[Joel171]

Then looking at it from a purely systematic point of view, you'll likely want to take Arcane Warrior and Blood mage for a more offensive caster or Arcane Warrior (or shape shifter, doesn't the bonuses to everything persist out of your shifted form?) and Spirit healer for a healer. (tougher healer able to stand up to assault while still casting) Or a Bloodmage/spirit healer for an almost unlimited amount of mana for a balanced caster.
Or at least that's what I have come up with. Like I said, I'm no mage. But it seems like that could work.

Shapeshifter is...I don't know. It seems like the odd man out.

Modifié par Joel171, 30 octobre 2009 - 06:48 .

[BewareTheDrow]

I'm going for the arcane warrior/spirit healer split. Not putting a single point in spirit healer (enjoying the passive bonus), filling out the arcane warrior spells, and playing like a fighter/mage with some nasty debuffs from entropy.

I think it will work well enough. I still don't like the three class only system, but thats just me.

Modifié par BewareTheDrow, 30 octobre 2009 - 06:58 .

[AffectedFiddle]

I was thinking Shifter/AW myself for theme mainly, toughest plate money can buy, shield and a sword and quickly turning into a frothing bear when I want to tear crap up (sort of like a giant Norse Bear Berserker). That being said I'm kinda disappointed by AW's lack of melee abilities (it appears to rely on...auto attack?) and the shifters "jack of all trades" nature...which is still uncertain. You have light spider damage or bear resistance...hardly a jack of trades imho.

[Ecaiki]

Mages already have a lot of synergy built in due to spell combos.  So their specializations seem more about adding extra stuff that would be too powerful to have access to all at once.