108 réponses à ce sujet

[Sajuro]

I was on the edge of my seat for the whole of the suicide missions since one of my friends told me someone will die if not everyone is loyal and I was completely expecting an unloyal Miranda to betray me for the Illusive Man should I decide to blow the base, which is the only time I kept it. Then I talked to her and did a -rageface-.
Miranda's sudden defection from Cerberus is the part I didn't like about the suicide mission, if you have her loyal than sure but if she isn't then she should try to stop you if TIM tells her to especially since he knows where Orianna is.

[JeffZero]

@ ExtremeOne:

There's a poetic dose of irony in deeming something to be a titular 'Suicide Mission' and then laughing in the title's face as your highly-trained squad escapes without casualties.

Therein lies my dilemma; I'm always torn between going for zero deaths for the sake of that argument and gunning for a good four or five for the sake of the opposite argument.

[Vertigo_1]

Great post Cheez...I'm with you hoping they improve on squad interaction and look forward to see how this will go down in ME3...

AdmiralCheez wrote...
5. Forgot to mention it in the main body of my wall-o-text, but this.

Yeah I love this song...I keep a copy of it on my Phone/iPod and listen to it often.

Also I never noticed Zaeed's stance during the briefing...hah...It looks like he could care less:lol:

[ExtremeOne]

lazuli wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

I understand that but they still added the idea of all surviving it into the game. There is no way in hell a real squad of soldiers in real life have any idea on if they all will survive a mission or not . but taking out that possiblity is stupid , why should it be left to players to decide what squad member to kill off just to get the realistic ending to it. yeah a real squad might all survive a mission but that is a rare case. 

1. You DIDN'T know if you'd survive.  In fact, half the game was spent telling you how risky the mission was.

2. You only get to "pick" who lives if you cheat the system and read all those guides about how to kill/save whomever.

3. This is not real life.  Shepard's a hero, and heroes have a habit of doing heroic things.  A "real" team of soldiers probably wouldn't have stopped Saren, either.

Agreed.  ExtremeOne, try to think back to your first time playing through the SM, assuming you didn't consult a guide and you didn't already know everything there was to know about it.  Your view of it then is probably the one that Bioware cares most about.

That said, I would welcome some deaths that we cannot control in ME3, as it is supposed to be the grand finale.  But that's probably a topic for another thread.

   




On My very first playthrough I lost half the squad in it.  It was impactful seeing most of my saquad dead. that was because of my own tactical mistakes. even once I learned who did what in the squad . I have always felt a realistic ending to ME 2 is the best way to go . This all win idea is fine for those that want that . But I am not like that. 

[Sebby]

g54 wrote...

Great post Cheez...I'm with you hoping they improve on squad interaction and look forward to see how this will go down in ME3...

AdmiralCheez wrote...
5. Forgot to mention it in the main body of my wall-o-text, but this.

Yeah I love this song...I keep a copy of it on my Phone/iPod and listen to it often.

Also I never noticed Zaeed's stance during the briefing...hah...It looks like he could care less:lol:

Zaeed's been through plenty of suicide missions. It's routine for him!

[ExtremeOne]

JeffZero wrote...

@ ExtremeOne:

There's a poetic dose of irony in deeming something to be a titular 'Suicide Mission' and then laughing in the title's face as your highly-trained squad escapes without casualties.

Therein lies my dilemma; I'm always torn between going for zero deaths for the sake of that argument and gunning for a good four or five for the sake of the opposite argument.

  



I understand the game all but wants you to prove it wrong. I like proving people and games wrong . But then it dawned on me that the realistic style ending is more impactful. But the game should have taken the all win idea and made it really hard to do .  

[ExtremeOne]

mrsph wrote...

It's called a Suicide Mission because no one expects to survive it.

Hence the tagline: They call it a Suicide Mission. Prove them wrong.

   


I get that but the prove me wrong idea was too easy and I hope in 3 its not that easy 

[AdmiralCheez]

You know, JeffZero, for me it was never a question of whether the ending would be realistically or dramatically viable, but of how much I cared about the people in my crew.

That's one of the cool things about Mass Effect: it's your story, and what happens is entirely dependent on you. You don't have to worry about trying to get it published, common storytelling conventions, or what other people think of it because it's an entirely personal experience.

As crazy as I get over proper storytelling and dramatic tension, the characters matter to me more. So I save them every damn time. Eventually, I might man up and kill off some folks just to see what happens in ME3, but I don't have to worry about the story or ending being "good" because I'm the only one affected by it.

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 29 avril 2011 - 05:04 .

[AdmiralCheez]

g54 wrote...

Also I never noticed Zaeed's stance during the briefing...hah...It looks like he could care less:lol:

I know.  I didn't noticed that until I was finished playing and was going through my screenshots, and when I saw Zaeed I giggled forever.

[Sebby]

Elite Midget wrote...

Command decisions? You mean 'common sense choices'? If so than I agree with you.

"We need someone with tech skills."

Tali is an engineer.
Legion is geth and was created by Quarians. Highly intelligent in all things technological.

"We need someone with leadership skills."

Miranda was in charge of a team of scientist and was a high ranking member of Cerberus. She even has an ability that as 'leader' in it.
Garrus was in charge of his team. They died after betrayal and him being too trusting. None of that is a factor since this is Shepard's Squad thus he can do fine.

"We need someone to escourt the rest of the crew back to the Normandy."

Mordin is the weakest fighter here but is highly intellient and is skiled at avoiding combat. It would be most logical to send him back through the path you just cleared.

"We need a Powerful Biotic for this shield."

Samara is an Asari, who are natural Biotics, and is very old and powerful.
Jack is the most powerful human Biotic you know.
Morinth is an Asari with unimagineable power.

"We need to hold the line."

Grunt is the biggest and toughest guy on the Squad. Why wouldn't he stay?
Garrus has a record of fighting against impossible odds, taking a rocket to the face, and killing large swaths of people.

It's obvious in retrospect but I made some really bad mistakes in my choices.

*Keep in mind I had everyone's loyalty and ship upgrades

1. Sent Jacob as the tech in the tunnel (He volunteered so i thought 'why not?")

2. Miranda as Squad Leader (only good decision I made)

3. Miranda for the biotic field  which killed Legion (my gut instinct was to to pick Samara but for some stupid reason I picked her instead)

4A. I didn't go to Omega four relay asap so Kelly died.

4B. Sent no escort for crewmembers, so they and Mordin ended up dying.

5. Grunt as second squad leader (I thought he'd be perfect for a leader holding the line)

I really had no idea what to expect from these decisions at the time. I had no clue if the person i choose to do the task would end up dying or someone else .

[Manic Sheep]

samurai crusade wrote...

Agreed. Only complaint.... wish there were more scenes of the Squad at the round table. (like ME1 had everyone post-mission to discuss).

Aye, that and what sad amount of squad banter we got in the elevators (tho I don’t miss the elevators themselves) are the two things I miss most from ME1.
The SM is one of my favourites in ME2. Up until the boss fights at least witch I didn’t particulary enjoy.
Although in regards to the cutscesns, the ones in the SM were very well done but I hope Bioware doesn’t fall into the trap of using cut scene too often. Games are an interactive medium, that’s their strength. I think you should try and keep it in game as much as possible.

Edit: one more thing to say.  I like the hold the line choice, Why? because  you had to look at the implications of your decisions beyond what they had directly asked  of you. By making the choice of who to take you where also affecting the team that is left behind. It was still fairly obvious but its a good start.

Modifié par Manic Sheep, 29 avril 2011 - 05:16 .

[AdmiralCheez]

Manic Sheep wrote...

Although in regards to the cutscesns, the ones in the SM were very well done but I hope Bioware doesn’t fall into the trap of using cut scene too often. Games are an interactive medium, that’s their strength. I think you should try and keep it in game as much as possible.

Same here.

*remembers MGS4. shudders*

[lovgreno]

To OP: I fully agree, you BioWare fanboy you.

To sum why it was so good in two words: Consequences and variables.

Hihi, variables, that word still makes me smile.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

"Read AdmiralCheez's post and gets a small sense of deja vu".

We already had this discussion I believe. I like your post even through I disagree with the part about it being nice that everyone can make it through alive. I think it undermines the Reaper and Collector threat and turns them into something of a joke, I also prefer the ending where a few people die for other reasons aswell.

The only thing I hope for is that ME3 will make it impossible to get the "Everyone makes it through alive 100% okay".

[AdmiralCheez]

Lizardviking wrote...

"Read AdmiralCheez's post and gets a small sense of deja vu".

We already had this discussion I believe. I like your post even through I disagree with the part about it being nice that everyone can make it through alive. I think it undermines the Reaper and Collector threat and turns them into something of a joke, I also prefer the ending where a few people die for other reasons aswell.

The only thing I hope for is that ME3 will make it impossible to get the "Everyone makes it through alive 100% okay"

Yes, I remember that discussion.

But why would you want to take the fun away from everyone else?  I mean, hell, if it's damn-near impossible to do, what's the harm in including it?  It'd be like the Easter Egg you'd have to be insane to try to get--only people who want it would go for it.  Everyone wins!

[JeffZero]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Manic Sheep wrote...

Although in regards to the cutscesns, the ones in the SM were very well done but I hope Bioware doesn’t fall into the trap of using cut scene too often. Games are an interactive medium, that’s their strength. I think you should try and keep it in game as much as possible.

Same here.

*remembers MGS4. shudders*

I'm so impressed by certain characters in that series that I still love MGS4. Besides, MGO is a great place to blow off some 'gods, I wish there was more gameplay involved in this video game' steam.

That said, the overly-sexualized scenes in MGS4 are ridiculous enough for me to write a full-blown essay. I only bring this up here because sometimes when Miranda's posterior takes over my television screen, I think back to the mission briefing for the final portion of MGS4's storyline and Johnny's 'hilarious antics' concerning Mei Ling.

And I remember that ME2 ain't half that bad, thank gosh.

[AdmiralCheez]

Indeed, JeffZero, indeed.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Yes, I remember that discussion.

But why would you want to take the fun away from everyone else?  I mean, hell, if it's damn-near impossible to do, what's the harm in including it?  It'd be like the Easter Egg you'd have to be insane to try to get--only people who want it would go for it.  Everyone wins!

Because as I said. The virtue of it being possible, undermines the Reapers and destroys their credibility as a threat. 

Also I don't think many people wanted Han Solo getting captured and frozen and Luke getting his ass handed to him by Darth Vader, considering they were character we like and love. Yet it happend and I think it made the story far better.

And while I am perfectly aware that the example I used no one died. But my point is that our heroes suffered setbacks and things turned out far from perfect. What the reader/player/viewer/spectator want is not always what is best for the story.

[AdmiralCheez]

@Liz: You can still have setbacks without squadmate slaughter, you know... In fact, your example proves that you can have high drama without death.

And, frankly, coming damn close to losing everything only to blast through in the end would not, to me, negate the threat of the Reapers. I mean, hell, ME3 barely starts and Earth is gone--the threat is real enough. The point is not to lose, but to think you're going to lose.

Really, I still don't like how you want to actually eliminate an option for players just because it doesn't sit well with you, even though I perfectly understand your reasoning. Some people love stories where the hero does the impossible just when you think everything is lost, and it's not fair to them. I respect your opinion, but I don't want it dictating how I play my game.

[Xeranx]

My view is that the Suicide Mission should have been "on" since Shepard woke up on the slab. I would have greatly appreciated the team if I had many opportunities to lose them before the final mission. That means every single Collector encounter (so as not to have us lose a squad mate during N7 missions) leaves the possibility of a member of the squad being abducted because an attachment to the team and not just Shepard doesn't exist or you, as Shepard, made the wrong move. For anyone that played DA:O, think the jail scene and how any number of your group get together to break you out or get you released.

Also, keep in mind that you are supposed to build a team (through recruitment and convincing them which never happened from where I'm sitting) and before the suicide mission starts people have misgivings about Miranda leading. Taking the DA:O scenario I mentioned above what do you think would happen if Shepard fell prey to the collectors? How do you think the group dynamic would work so that a charge at the Collectors could be made to rescue Shepard. In thinking about how the team is supposed to be built to fight this battle I think one should imagine what would happen if Shepard were not in the picture after recruitment began.

[Niddy']

AdmiralCheez wrote...


But then, suddenly, we get this:



Suddenly,
you have the whole team out at once, working together, and looking to
you for command.  They discuss strategies, argue with each other, help
each other out, perform special tasks, and actually behave like a
cohesive unit

Yeah, we had this in the first game. the way it should have stayed for the entire game.


I felt like i was shopping the entire game not putting together a team.

Modifié par Niddy', 29 avril 2011 - 06:17 .

[Clonedzero]

mrsph wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

I hate when people bring up that stupid defense for games . If you have a mission in a game and you specifically say that there is a chance you  and your squad might not survive the mission in the game. Then the game needs to have the possiblity that happens . with out the payer having to set that up .  

That's the thing. Not everyone that plays the game will know that Garrus is a poor tech expert, or that Grunt can't lead squads. Leading to people losing characters completely on accident.

I think people forget that not everyone that played Mass Effect 2 knew every single nook and cranny of the game. Mordin alone also probably dies more than every character.

well yeah mordin died in my game.

i think the tech expert example is a bad one though. because that one is STUPID obvious to use tali or legion.

the one that i can see people getting upset about is the final stand thing. my first playthrough i sent grunt back with the crew because i figured he's big and would make a great body guard to get them back safe (turns out it doesnt matter as long as whoever you send is loyal). and i brought garrus with me to fight the final boss because i used him for a majority of the game, cus he's MFing garrus lol. also my first playthrough i didnt know i had the cerberus free DLC so i didnt have zaeed. meaning i had no big defenders for that part so i lost a bunch there.

[AdmiralCheez]

Niddy' wrote...

Yeah, we had this in the first game. the way it should have stayed for the entire game.

Unfortunately, the first game was largely the same---everyone sits down, Ashley b*tches, Liara sexes your brains, and you phone the Council.

Not saying I didn't miss it.