108 réponses à ce sujet

[Niddy']

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Niddy' wrote...

Yeah, we had this in the first game. the way it should have stayed for the entire game.

Unfortunately, the first game was largely the same---everyone sits down, Ashley b*tches, Liara sexes your brains, and you phone the Council.

Not saying I didn't miss it.

Yes, but it gave me a feel of being part of a team. Discussing what we had just done, what we will do, and what has to be done.


ME2 felt like a Call of Duty campaign with RPG elements. Instead I got mission ending screens and 2 lines of dialog with jacob.


Tbe whole game was to create a team, it would have been nice to talk as one.

Modifié par Niddy', 29 avril 2011 - 06:22 .

[AdmiralCheez]

The team dynamic definitely needs to be improved for ME3. I mentioned this in the OP.

[Clonedzero]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Niddy' wrote...

Yeah, we had this in the first game. the way it should have stayed for the entire game.

Unfortunately, the first game was largely the same---everyone sits down, Ashley b*tches, Liara sexes your brains, and you phone the Council.

Not saying I didn't miss it.

yeah, thats pretty much dead on lol.

i dont think tali, garrus or wrex even talk in any of them, i dont remember it. those meetings could have just been ashley and liara and they'd be the same.

[Eudaemonium]

The first time I did the suicide mission was amazing. Though miraculously I did actually manage to get everyone out alive, particularly since I sent Zaeed to escort the crew back and knowing now about the 'hold the line' score that was a pretty silly thing to do (I thought the crew would need someone tough to defend them, not just sneak past... which makes me wonder why i picked Zaeede at all, come to think of it, since he gets his teams routinely killed).

Regardless, the pacing and the constant threat - and the sense of accomplishment when I succeeded - were awesome the first time. And, let's be honest, 'Suicide Mission' as a track of music is simply astounding. Sure, in retrospect, I'd have liked it to be harder - I'd have liked to have had 1-2 people die for dramatic effect, but No One Left Behind was a testament to my preparation, so perhaps I earned it. I will never know now.

[HTTP 404]

I thought the variables were good as well. But I wish in my opinion someone random would ALWAYS die in the suicide mission no matter how prepared you are. That way it was always shocking!  It took more effort to kill your squadmates versus keeping them alive.

"TALI NO!"

"MY BOY GARRUS!"

"JACOB. THE PRIIIZE!"

yah just roll the dice and we get a dead squadmate. that way we can say in me3 that someone did die. All my playthroughs imported into Me3 will have Shepard saying it wasn't really a suicide mission we got zero casualities from it, heck my crew wasn't even liquified when we got there.

Modifié par HTTP 404, 29 avril 2011 - 06:26 .

[AdmiralCheez]

Clonedzero wrote...

yeah, thats pretty much dead on lol.

i dont think tali, garrus or wrex even talk in any of them, i dont remember it. those meetings could have just been ashley and liara and they'd be the same.

You know, thinking about it, I actually think ME2 had more post-mission chat.

After every mission or squadmate recruitment, Miri, Jacob, and sometimes Mordin (along with whomever you just recruited) would pop in for a quick convo.  They were shorter and had less of a team-y feel, yeah, but I thought they had a little more... I dunno... spice?

@HTTP 404: Random deaths only lead to constant reloading.

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 29 avril 2011 - 06:27 .

[Niddy']

Clonedzero wrote...

[quoyeah, thats pretty much dead on lol.

i dont think tali, garrus or wrex even talk in any of them, i dont remember it. those meetings could have just been ashley and liara and they'd be the same.

Whether they spoke or not, they were there. Immersion (to me) is what makes a RPG an RPG. It is the reason I still prefer elevators to those "informative" screens they replaced them with.  Yeah both are boring, but one left me inside the game.

Not saying it was perfect but to replace a discussion with a team with one person isn't better.

Modifié par Niddy', 29 avril 2011 - 06:28 .

[Sebby]

Clonedzero wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Niddy' wrote...

Yeah, we had this in the first game. the way it should have stayed for the entire game.

Unfortunately, the first game was largely the same---everyone sits down, Ashley b*tches, Liara sexes your brains, and you phone the Council.

Not saying I didn't miss it.

yeah, thats pretty much dead on lol.

i dont think tali, garrus or wrex even talk in any of them, i dont remember it. those meetings could have just been ashley and liara and they'd be the same.

You're right, Wrex,Tali and Garrus literally never say a word during the debriefings.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

@Liz: You can still have setbacks without squadmate slaughter, you know... In fact, your example proves that you can have high drama without death.

And, frankly, coming damn close to losing everything only to blast through in the end would not, to me, negate the threat of the Reapers. I mean, hell, ME3 barely starts and Earth is gone--the threat is real enough. The point is not to lose, but to think you're going to lose.

Really, I still don't like how you want to actually eliminate an option for players just because it doesn't sit well with you, even though I perfectly understand your reasoning. Some people love stories where the hero does the impossible just when you think everything is lost, and it's not fair to them. I respect your opinion, but I don't want it dictating how I play my game.

Squadmate slaughter? I am not asking to kill off characters for kicks (what is this? Deathly hallows?). I am asking for one or two moments where a character (can be a choice of who it is going to be) is given a satisfying death. Hell, the character in question does not have to be a squadmate.

Also. You might not like how I am saying that you should be forced to have a death. But I am also annoyed how I have to ignore content or have my Shepard act dumb in order to get my ending.

[didymos1120]

Seboist wrote...

You're right, Wrex,Tali and Garrus literally never say a word during the debriefings.

Wrex does after you acquire Liara, so long as you haven't acquired the Cipher.  He comments on her biotics being handy in a fight.

[GodWood]

AdmiralCheez wrote...
Well, no. I actually have a few gripes with the Suicide Mission, which I'll list here:

1. It was pretty damn easy to get the "perfect ending" if you actually paid attention and played the game.
2. Regardless of whether or not it looked like the Terminator, the final boss wasn't much of a challenge, either.
3. Huzzah! Assault rifles for everyone! Can't wield them in-game? Who cares?!
4. Commander Sherpderp strikes again with the occasional hilariously bad line and logic fail

And this is why I cannot love the Suicide Mission

[J0HNL3I]

yes i loved it for the same reasons

[CroGamer002]

@AdmiralCheez




BTW I read whole OP while listening Suicide Mission OST.

[Foolsfolly]

All I've got to say, after reading the first page of this thread, is this:

I refuse to believe that loosing a crew member in the finale is the only way to have a cinematic ending. Pulling everyone out of that alive is far more satisfying than anything has any right to be.

The Collectors were dangerous.

Shepard's team was more dangerous.

[Foolsfolly]

If all of them died after trying their damnest, and after Shepard not making a single mistake, then it would feel like Shepard and the team gave everything they had to the mission, and it was barely enough to defeat the Collectors. I'd be terrified of facing the Reapers then. As it stands, it was a breeze.

.....I disagree. It would make the missions prior to the Suicide Mission feel pointless. What's the point of getting all these characters if they're just going to die anyway?

I don't understand this argument. It's like saying, "Han Solo and Chewbacca should have died during the Death Star run. Luke should have been the only survivor so the Death Star would be a threat."

It's not about the threat. It's about the heroes winning the day. It's about cheering for your protagonists.

It's about Aragorn, Gemli, and Legolas charging into an unstoppable army in the hope that Frodo's still alive....and being rewarded for their faith.

I don't agree with the idea that it's only meaningful if it's dour.

[Aggie Punbot]

Elite Midget wrote...

Command decisions? You mean 'common sense choices'? If so than I agree with you.
*snip*

Allow me to refute this:

"We need someone with tech skills."

Garrus has tech skills as well (as does Miranda).

"We need someone with leadership skills."

Tali had previously led her own teams, and Zaeed had also presumably led fellow mercs into action.

"We need someone to escourt the rest of the crew back to the Normandy."

See, my first playthrough I had assumed you needed to use the toughest SOB on your team to make sure that the crew got back safely. You know, someone that could protect them all with brute force.

"We need a Powerful Biotic for this shield."

Miranda was engineered to be the "perfect woman"...with biotics.

"We need to hold the line."

Use people that can do a lot of damage from a distance to hold off the organic attackers (like, oh say, Mordin with his Incinerate ability).

It's very easy to claim that everything is "easy" after you've done it a few times. There is just as much rationale for making the 'wrong' choices as there is for making the 'right' ones.

[mangiraffedog000]

OK, there seems to be some confusion about Man-Giraffe-Dog on the forums, notably that it just looks like a Giraffe-Dog. Well... that's the POINT. Why do you think I'm the only one warning you. It's disguised as a Giraffe-Dog until it's ready to take over the world.
OK this is how Man-Giraffe-Dog came to be:


While growing up it was spotted in the wild (but the team was all killed by it and the photos were recovered afterwards)


After which it began its infiltration of humanity, disguised as Giraffe-Dog:


Which leaves us here. Man-Giraffe-Dog is poised to attack and destroy humanity and I'm trying to warn everyone before it's too late. This is totally serial guys. You need to prepare.

Excelsior!

[Wulfram]

I think the choices are easy if you base things on what the choice screen tells you, less so if you substitute in your own reasoning or want to pick the people who volunteer.

[Saephy]

I agree with the original post.

For all games I play I avoid guides, spoilers and the likes prior to my first playthrough, so I didn`t know anything about any "Suicide Mission" aside from what I got told in the game.
And although they do make an effort of expressing the gravity of the final mission, every other quest/mission in any game ever claims to be "important" and "on a timer" and it rarely is, so I didn`t think much of it, I thought it was just the normal atmosphere/RP part of it and had no idea people would actually die based on variables and decisions I made.

This isn`t a complaint by the way, I thought the last mission was awesome and easily one of the best parts of the game.

I had all the ship upgrades and did all the loyalty-quests, and still lost people.

I am fully aware of, and agree with that it´s easy to keep everyone alive and the reason I lost people first time around was entirely my fault for making poor decisions.
My decisions weren`t (to me) insane or boneheadedly bad ideas though, they did make sense although not the sense required.

I also led the team more like a kinder-garden teacher and less like an actual commander of a paramilitary unit as in; I chose people I hadn`t used much up until that point because I wanted "everyone to be part of the adventure" 

In the end it cost me half my crew and 30% of my team (didn`t have any companion DLCs at the time).

- I lost half my crew, due to not having finished all the missions I intended to do before going for the IFF, as at that point without guides or spoilers you have no idea you won`t have time to finish many other missions after that.

- I lost Legion as a Tech and Samara, because I chose Samara as leader for the second squad.
I thought well sure she´s been mainly alone, but she´s 1000 years old, she must have had some experience with smaller teams at some point; when introduced to the Justicar order they say they mostly work alone or in small groups.

- I lost Thane to the swarms as I chose Miranda to be my biotic, because well she says she could do it, and I had barely used her in my game and I had already chosen Samara for 2nd team leader(see kindergarden-comment).
I did originally intend for Miranda to be the 2nd squad leader, but Jack seemed to suggest that was a bad idea and noone wanted to follow her.

As for caring so much about my team, I´m not surprised.
I tend to get extremely immersed and carried away with Bioware games.
When Legion died I was sad and shocked, amplified by the fact I didn`t have much time to process that before Samara took a bullet to the gut, and I was close to shutting down the entire game when Thane got carried away by the swarms.
At that point I thought: "If Garrus dies I´m not playing anymore, the Galaxy can go **** itself for all I care"  

I agree with Foolsfolly in that having everyone die isn`t necessary (for me at least) to feel that the suicide mission is serious business, and I don`t believe that everyone dying or being miserable makes for "darker" or better storytelling either.
Additionally, considering what it took to bring Sovereign down (one single reaper), I don`t think the Reaper threat is diminished at all, no matter what happens to Shepards team.

As a sidenote, the briefing cutscene is magnificent, I particularly like the part where Miranda nervously inspects a pistol (or something) and Jacob comes up to her and places a comforting hand on her shoulder and smiles encouragingly at her.

Modifié par Saephy, 29 avril 2011 - 11:32 .

[didymos1120]

TS2Aggie wrote...
"We need someone with leadership skills."

Tali had previously led her own teams, and Zaeed had also presumably led fellow mercs into action.

"We need a Powerful Biotic for this shield."

Miranda was engineered to be the "perfect woman"...with biotics.

Claims that these two were obvious are also dubious for other reasons.  For the former, it's because there are unused "success" audio files for the case where Zaeed leads the first fireteam.  For the latter, it's because there are unused "success" audio files for every single biotic squadmate.  And Mordin.

[Abrams216]

I remember my first time with the suicide run.

We need a tech expert: Duh, Tali.

We need a leader: Garrus had a pretty good team, maybe he knows a thing or two about leading teams over the ****ty cheerleader.

After first skirmish:

We need a leader: Good job Garrus, now go do it again!

We need a biotic: Shut up Miranda, I don't care how "perfect" you are. See that asari over there? She's been doing this since the Third freakin' Crusades!

The crew needs an escort: This doesn't bode well. As much as I may want to save everyone, I'm going to need my heavy hitters to complete the mission. Mordin, good luck! Wait, he actually made it!?

Did everything right the first time around. I can't remember the last time a video game made me feel as awesome as I did then.

[kaimanaMM]

Foolsfolly wrote...

All I've got to say, after reading the first page of this thread, is this:

I refuse to believe that loosing a crew member in the finale is the only way to have a cinematic ending. Pulling everyone out of that alive is far more satisfying than anything has any right to be.

The Collectors were dangerous.

Shepard's team was more dangerous.

I agree with this 100%.  

While the choices to be made were self-explanatory if you thought about them, how many people lost at least one person the very first time through?  I lost Tali because I chose Samara at first to lead the B team.  I admit, that choice wasn't made with rational thought (it was also about 4am at the time and I'd been playing all night).  I liked Samara, I thought from her introduction she seemed calm and collected under pressure.  At the time, it didn't even occur to me that as a Justicar she'd worked alone for the past 400 years and she probably wasn't the best choice to lead a team.  During 'hold the line' I lost Mordin, because I sent Jacob back with the crew.  

But that's kind of the beauty of it.  Everyone was on the chopping block and a death didn't necessarily come from a direct choice (like Tali's death due to Samara being my B team leader).  You questioned your choices, you hoped to hear a bit of radio chatter to know someone was alright as they fought the good fight  off-screen and you clenched your teeth as the person doing the biotic field began to falter.

I love the SM and I still enjoy playing it even though I know the formulas and math behind it.  I still enjoy the big reveal, despite Pants the Human Reaper.  And I still feel good when everyone makes it out alive.

[Fiery Phoenix]

After six playthrough's, I still get goosebumps when the Normandy jumps through the Omega-4 Relay. Basically the whole mission gives me the chills.

[ExtremeOne]

thats why I create the realistic ending with squad members dieing at the end of 2.