43 réponses à ce sujet

[DeadInHell]

Now, obviously Bioware's games are defined by the choices presented within them, so I'll be clear that when I say "hero" I'm not asking if Hawke is morally just and a saintly baby saver. I mean Hero in the sense that someone who defeats a blight is a Hero.

Personally, I'm not sure that Hawke measures up to other Bioware protaganists, or the DA2 promotional hype.

The Hero of Ferelden, Commander Shepard, Revan, they were all legendary figures who changed the shape of their worlds/galaxies. Hawke scarcely set foot out of Kirkwall, and his major heroic deeds involve:

1. Going into the deep roads and getting rich.
2.. Defeating the Arishok, which was anything but a decisive battle (as the "we'll be back" he croaks at you before death implies)
2. Being...around...when the mages and templars finally end up going to war.

Hawke himself is merely a (admittedly, quite capable) bystander or enabler of others' schemes. He is not the kind of figure who shapes worlds, but more distressingly, he doesn't seem to even be the kind of character who shapes his own destiny. With many if not all big plot points in the game, things play out in much the same way no matter your choices. The story ended up being full of inevitable plot contrivances instead of meaningful choices. As the hero of Ferelden I felt like I was a driving force making important choices about the future well being and even leadership of Ferelden, as Hawke I felt more as though I was simply along for the ride. I spent the whole game feeling as though something big was right around the corner, that Hawke's destiny and true purpose would be revealed, and then before that could happen...it was over.

If you do think that Hawke is the Champion we were promised, by all means, persuade me. I'm just interested in hearing everyone's thoughts on this. I'd like to hear what actually makes Hawke's story and character so vital and what makes the telling of it so necessary. At the moment, I think he as a lot in common with the apprentice from The Force Unleashed. A powerful character full of potential, trapped in a story that he can enact little real change on, and not truly given a tale that justifies the game that tells it.

[Oisrisso]

I agree with you. S/he wans't a hero, in my eyes. One of DA2's myriad flaws was that the whole story felt like stuff was happening around you, rather than you being involved. It reminds you ultimately that all you're doing is changing code, and selecting what graphics and sound effects you hear.

[Sarcastic Tasha]

Hawke is the champion because she pwned the Arishok. But I don't think she's a hero, she can do some heroic things or some crappy things. For example Feynriel might describe Hawke as a hero or he might just say "Grrr arrg!" I like that Hawke isn't a hero though. Its fun to role play a different sort of character for a change.

[Critical Miss]

Getting rid of the Arishok made Hawke a champion. Perhaps if Bioware would have called him/her the hero of Kirkwall, people that like hero stories would have been satisfied. Anyway, why does Hawke have to be a hero to be considered a worthy subject for storytelling? It's Varric's story after all, and many people forget that when playing the game.

[Critical Miss]

Oisrisso wrote...

I agree with you. S/he wans't a hero, in my eyes. One of DA2's myriad flaws was that the whole story felt like stuff was happening around you, rather than you being involved. It reminds you ultimately that all you're doing is changing code, and selecting what graphics and sound effects you hear.

Stuff was happening around you... a bit like real life, really. That's one of the reasons DA2 is a more sophisticated story. Hero stories are passe, anyway. It's about time the gaming industry took a new direction in storytelling. The hero tale is becoming incredibly ho-hum.

[t0mm06]

I think he/she is defiantly a hero, i mean if you think about it, he doesnt do anything massive really, but i think that was the point of the game, to show how little control we have over destiny, if you look the warden had just as little choice in his destiny, the difference being he went head first into it to try and change it, Hawke is a just a guy with a good heart (unless you played it otherwise) who helps people, maybe he doesnt save the world, but he does go out of his way to save people, hes just really good at fighting and is thrown into positions where he has to lead and do something.
Its like the Shakespeare quote, some men are born great, some achive greatness and some have greatness thrust apon them, well lets face it the warden (if you choose a noble or mage) is born great, but also achives it, whereas Hawke (i feel) is more relatable, as he ist born great, he has it thrust apon him, but at the same time he conquers it and proves that he is great, i do think that if hawke was in the position of the warden he would have been able to do the same thing, and vice versa. the onyl difference is how they react to what they must do.
Its much like what Merrill, Isabella say about hawke (i dont know with anders or feneris as i have not romanced them) that if he were and elf/sailor, they would be free/boat wouldn't have crashed,none of this is his choice but he does the best he can with what is thrown his was

[Wulfram]

Hawke is a hero because when the chips are down they don't run and hide, they step in and play a role. Their response to the Qunari attacking Hightown is to go there, their response to the Annulment of the Circle is to intervene, not stand aside.

Heroism isn't about impact, it's about effort.

[bti79]

I agree with what's being said Hero and Champion are two different things. My Hawke did everything for entirely selfish reasons.

1) Going into the deep roads - for personal gain only. The darkspawn wasn't even threathning Kirkwall.

2) Killing the Arishok - only because of feelings/friendship with Isabella. Even if Isabella did eventually return the tome, she was indirectly responsible for the Kirkwall-Quanri war by taking it to begin with. Hardly heroic that Hawke refused to let the Arishok bring her to whatever justice the Qunari had in store for her - to anyone but Isabella and people who cared more about her than justice being done.

3) Hawkes involvement in the mage/templar feud. I suppose Hawke could be considered a hero to whatever side he chose to stand on. The other would consider him a villain/traitor.

[Oisrisso]

Critical Miss wrote...

Oisrisso wrote...

I agree with you. S/he wans't a hero, in my eyes. One of DA2's myriad flaws was that the whole story felt like stuff was happening around you, rather than you being involved. It reminds you ultimately that all you're doing is changing code, and selecting what graphics and sound effects you hear.

Stuff was happening around you... a bit like real life, really. That's one of the reasons DA2 is a more sophisticated story. Hero stories are passe, anyway. It's about time the gaming industry took a new direction in storytelling. The hero tale is becoming incredibly ho-hum.

I'm all for stories not involving direct choices - Assassin's Creed was just a story you were watching, and but for the boring combat system FF13 was excelent, mainly by virtue of its story. In an RPG the story must come first and that's fine; the problem is when they big up the choices, the direction of the character you play, and then it turns out to be meaningless. That just makes you feel powerless, rather than engaged in a sophisticated story.

[AlexXIV]

I think DA2 is the story of an unlucky hero. While having everything a hero needs. things almost always go wrong. I guess to be a real hero it needed a bit more luck. Well better luck next time, Hawke!

[GSSAGE7]

If the game ended at Act 2, we wouldn't even be having this discussion. The problem is, DA2 asks the question "What does a hero do when he has to pick a side, and they both suck?"

[Rifneno]

GSSAGE7 wrote...

If the game ended at Act 2, we wouldn't even be having this discussion. The problem is, DA2 asks the question "What does a hero do when he has to pick a side, and they both suck?"

Ever voted?  It's a little game we call "the lesser of two evils."  =/

[Nepenthe87]

Rifneno wrote...

GSSAGE7 wrote...

If the game ended at Act 2, we wouldn't even be having this discussion. The problem is, DA2 asks the question "What does a hero do when he has to pick a side, and they both suck?"

Ever voted?  It's a little game we call "the lesser of two evils."  =/

the difference in voting is you have the choice to not vote at all. Not so much with the templar/mage conflict.

[Cutlass Jack]

I voted with my murder knife. I just said 'no' to Anders behavior.

[Rifneno]

Nepenthe87 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

GSSAGE7 wrote...

If the game ended at Act 2, we wouldn't even be having this discussion. The problem is, DA2 asks the question "What does a hero do when he has to pick a side, and they both suck?"

Ever voted?  It's a little game we call "the lesser of two evils."  =/

the difference in voting is you have the choice to not vote at all. Not so much with the templar/mage conflict.

Sure you do.  DON'T BUY THE GAME.  I'd rather they spent development time on a game where it's presumed the main character actually does something instead of wasting time on a path where the "hero" sits on his rear and doesn't do anything except collect mold.

[Carol L S]

Not a hero in my opinion, but more a respected person of importance in Kirkwall. He made a name for himself and became a "champion" of the city but the rest is just the story of what happens to him after that. Maybe like a general who wins a certain war, but not a hero who saves the world. I like it..

[Annarl]

BeLikeHan wrote...

Now, obviously Bioware's games are defined by the choices presented within them, so I'll be clear that when I say "hero" I'm not asking if Hawke is morally just and a saintly baby saver. I mean Hero in the sense that someone who defeats a blight is a Hero.

Personally, I'm not sure that Hawke measures up to other Bioware protaganists, or the DA2 promotional hype.

The Hero of Ferelden, Commander Shepard, Revan, they were all legendary figures who changed the shape of their worlds/galaxies. Hawke scarcely set foot out of Kirkwall, and his major heroic deeds involve:

1. Going into the deep roads and getting rich.
2.. Defeating the Arishok, which was anything but a decisive battle (as the "we'll be back" he croaks at you before death implies)
2. Being...around...when the mages and templars finally end up going to war.

Hawke himself is merely a (admittedly, quite capable) bystander or enabler of others' schemes. He is not the kind of figure who shapes worlds, but more distressingly, he doesn't seem to even be the kind of character who shapes his own destiny. With many if not all big plot points in the game, things play out in much the same way no matter your choices. The story ended up being full of inevitable plot contrivances instead of meaningful choices. As the hero of Ferelden I felt like I was a driving force making important choices about the future well being and even leadership of Ferelden, as Hawke I felt more as though I was simply along for the ride. I spent the whole game feeling as though something big was right around the corner, that Hawke's destiny and true purpose would be revealed, and then before that could happen...it was over.

If you do think that Hawke is the Champion we were promised, by all means, persuade me. I'm just interested in hearing everyone's thoughts on this. I'd like to hear what actually makes Hawke's story and character so vital and what makes the telling of it so necessary. At the moment, I think he as a lot in common with the apprentice from The Force Unleashed. A powerful character full of potential, trapped in a story that he can enact little real change on, and not truly given a tale that justifies the game that tells it.

I agree with most of your post.  Hawke is a strong character but I woundn't really label him or her a hero.  As for the most important person I don't see it all.  Maybe that will change but Hawke is a bystander to Anders who blows up the chantry and the ensuing mage uprise.  But this game didn't sell me on the idea that Hawke was all that important.  Of course that's just my opinion. 

[Nepenthe87]

Rifneno wrote...

Nepenthe87 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

GSSAGE7 wrote...

If the game ended at Act 2, we wouldn't even be having this discussion. The problem is, DA2 asks the question "What does a hero do when he has to pick a side, and they both suck?"

Ever voted?  It's a little game we call "the lesser of two evils."  =/

the difference in voting is you have the choice to not vote at all. Not so much with the templar/mage conflict.

Sure you do.  DON'T BUY THE GAME.  I'd rather they spent development time on a game where it's presumed the main character actually does something instead of wasting time on a path where the "hero" sits on his rear and doesn't do anything except collect mold.

That's a stupid comment, I liked the game well enough to play it once. I was just not happy with how everything was presented.

My hawke was a sarcastic selfish mage jerk, willing to murder templar and mage alike if he felt they sucked enough. It would have been well within his character to tell both orsino and Meredith to **** off and leave kirkwall to drown in it's own filth. but you are never given the option to not care about kirkwall.

You only have the choice to care sympathetically or serve with an Iron fist. at least if you were given the option to let kirkwall burn there would have at least been an ending.

Giving you two levers to pull that lead to the same outcome is not variety or "good" use of development time in my opinion.

Modifié par Nepenthe87, 29 avril 2011 - 03:50 .

[Alamar2078]

I think Hawke is [can be] a hero but not on the same scale as the Hero of Fereldon. The sticky point is exactly how you define "hero".

I honestly believe to the people of Kirkwall he may well be their own personal hero. Hawke is likely to be seen as a hero or rallying point by either the mages or templars. Most importantly to his friends & family he certainly can be a hero depending on how things play out.

EDIT:  i suspect the writers even wanted to make him a hero because all these terrible things keep happenning to him but he never gives up and keeps going on and fighting against the tides of destiny.

Modifié par Alamar2078, 29 avril 2011 - 04:32 .

[EternalPink]

No for him to be a hero someone would have to have benefitted from his actions and until the end you could say that the people of have kirkwall have but then with the scripted ending there is no winner.

Its pretty much a repeat of what happens with the mine, you can say how you will be nice and how you will protect them and be a great employer but in the end everybody is dead.

The most the game allows you to be is a well intentioned survivor

Modifié par EternalPink, 29 avril 2011 - 04:18 .

[Dean_the_Young]

If you arbitrarily define a hero as 'someone irreplaceable to great things happening', debatable.

But then, there's the minor matter of most historic, and even game, heroes not being irreplaceable. Not even the Warden, your Warden, was irreplaceable: there were always no less than another five anonymous schmucks who would have stepped in had Duncan gone somewhere else.

Heroes don't have to be irreplaceable, nor do they have to be the sole reason a series of events happen. A Hero can still arise in a battle that was won for other reasons: in Mass Effect, all the origin career paths happen regardless of what Shepard you have. Without the War Hero, Elysium still holds: with the Butcher of Torfan, Torfan is still razed. Heroes aren't a category of certain successes: heroes are a cultural recognition.

Hawke may not pander to a player's ego by letting them be the deciding factor in everyone's lives and the fate of all nations, but Hawke is right there involved, and is helping shape those events, and becomes emblematic. Whether the Arishock would have been defeated by Meredith or not, it was Hawke who beat the Qunari. Regardless of whether the final showdown would occur or not, it was Hawke who decided it's shape. Whether or not Hawke had the opportunity not to, Hawke was the symbol of victory, and the ultimate outcome of Kirkwall.

[Vicious]

Hawke is only a hero if he duels the Arishok.

[Alamar2078]

EternalPink wrote...

No for him to be a hero someone would have to have benefitted from his actions and until the end you could say that the people of have kirkwall have but then with the scripted ending there is no winner.

Its pretty much a repeat of what happens with the mine, you can say how you will be nice and how you will protect them and be a great employer but in the end everybody is dead.

The most the game allows you to be is a well intentioned survivor

While I could be wrong examples of events like this were likely dont to lower the number of variables that the devs. need to keep up with.   Obviously it must be factored in to whether Hawke is a hero or not but I at least cut the writers some slack because what they may like to do is sometimes constrained by other factors.

[Alamar2078]

Vicious wrote...

Hawke is only a hero if he duels the Arishok.

Why would he not ....

[AlexXIV]

Well maybe they should have made Hawke the one who embraces destiny and changes the world forever and not the one who fights destiny and gets swallowed whole.