23 réponses à ce sujet

[BluGirl1968]

So - say you are a Thedan God with the power to solve the Mage/Templar problem  that is clearly defined in this Kirkwallian saga. How would you solve it? ( Kill all the mages or kill all the Templars is a cop out. )

Dissolution of the Circles and Templars creates two issues:

1) How does one train new magi?
2) How do you deal with destructive, possesed and blood mages?

To solve issue one I would institute "mage school" - like a collage for young magi. There would be parental visits, levels of responsibility and time at home with the family. The hope is that the family of the young mage and the experienced magi teaching at the college could guide the student to a life of happy productivity. ( this has given rise to entertaining thoughts for me - "What is your major?"  "Entropy." "Man, Entropy is hard. Why don't you take something easy like Creation?. Wynn is an easy A." "Dude! Anders is back with the keg!")

To solve issue two, I would create an elite joint task force of mages and soldiers with templar training to combat demons, blood magic and destructive magi. They would work togeather to stand against demons and corruption making the world safe from evil magi, kitten punchers and other corrupt individuals with power. This is even more awesome then the templars because we could give the new orginization a named that boils down into a acronym. For example, 'Association of Witches, Enchanters and Soldiers for Obtaining Malificarum Elimination" or A.W.E.S.O.M.E.

[phyreblade74]

I've never really understood the whole dynamic which has mages taken away from their families and basically refused the chance to have anything even close to a real life. How do you learn how to control your sadness, regrets, anger, and pride, if every single day you're kept from seeing or knowing happiness, hope, laughter and belonging?

No, I would have mages living side by side with templars but allowed regular contact with family and friends. I can even see it as realistic where mages marry and have children, so long as there is always supervision and monitoring from someone capable of stepping in to halt or mitigate their magic, a templar. What, is the Gallows just too small, that it can't handle kiddies and spouses running around? And there's room to grow at Lake Calenhad, dangit. Little huts near the Lake where mages can live with their families, I mean. Just..something, something that allows mages to appreciate the good and best life has to offer, rather than shut off and away like something bad or shameful.

That's my thinking. As you point out, any extreme, be it killing all mages at birth or just denying any sort of templar supervision, for instance, isn't realistic. Extremes is what drove the entire city of Kirkwall towards destruction, if you ask me. No, what's neccessary is something of a middle ground, a compromise, where mages are allowed a life and people who aren't mages are allowed safety. It's possible, shrug.

[nicethugbert]

There you go again, trying to save the world. [ DENIED ]

[Ryzaki]

If I was a Thedan god the solution would be simple. I'd destroy all the mages and make sure no more were born.

And yes it's a copout but I'm a god. They create copouts

[LobselVith8]

Ryzaki wrote...

If I was a Thedan god the solution would be simple. I'd destroy all the mages and make sure no more were born.

And yes it's a copout but I'm a god. They create copouts

I'm sure the Qunari would love that when they're converting the Andrastian nations... at least the bakers will win out making all those cookies for them.

[Gamer Ftw]

Easy we turn all the Templar's into mages.then give the mages their own country or island away from the ungifted.

[StaceysChain]

I'd do the same thing as you BluGirl1968.

[Maria Caliban]

BluGirl1968 wrote...

1) How does one train new magi?
2) How do you deal with destructive, possesed and blood mages?

1) Circles
2) Kill or imprison them

[Satyricon331]

If you're a god, couldn't you just render demons incapable of possessing anyone?

If I were some benevolent despot, the solution I'd pursue would depend mostly on the resources the society had. A poor society might only be able to accomplish a quarantine-like solution like Thedas currently has. A wealthy one could pursue all sorts of alternate approaches that would better achieve both safety and personal liberty. The resources issue is something I haven't seen people mention in these mage-solution threads, but it's the most serious hurdle imo since ideas ppl have to reduce the tradeoff b/w safety and liberty all seem to require resources.

I'm not much of an anarchist, I guess.

[Beerfish]

phyreblade74 wrote...

I've never really understood the whole dynamic which has mages taken away from their families and basically refused the chance to have anything even close to a real life. How do you learn how to control your sadness, regrets, anger, and pride, if every single day you're kept from seeing or knowing happiness, hope, laughter and belonging?

Easy to understand, Redcliffe.  There you go.  A child that was brought up outside the circle, in a well adjusted environment, tutored by a mage and look what happened.  Many many people killed and a village and castle almost destroyed.

The child was not some evil or ambitious creature, he was just exposed to what all mages are exposed to and when it looked like his dad was dieing he made a deal.   That is the classic example of why mages are so tightly controlled.  They don't have to be bad people to do great great harm.

[LobselVith8]

Beerfish wrote...

Easy to understand, Redcliffe.  There you go.  A child that was brought up outside the circle, in a well adjusted environment, tutored by a mage and look what happened.  Many many people killed and a village and castle almost destroyed.

That's the result of having a religious organization preach how mages are "cursed" and responsible for the Thedas version of original sin. Arlessa Isolde was a pious woman of the Chantry of Andraste who wanted her only son Connor to be taught not to be a mage.

Beerfish wrote...

The child was not some evil or ambitious creature, he was just exposed to what all mages are exposed to and when it looked like his dad was dieing he made a deal.   That is the classic example of why mages are so tightly controlled.  They don't have to be bad people to do great great harm.

Aren't abominations exactly what happened at the Circle Tower because the mages wanted to be free from Chantry control? We've seen abuses to that control - Karl was illegally made tranquil on order of Ser Alrik, the child Ella was threatened with rape by Ser Alrik, templars torture one of the da'len and attempt to kill the Dalish hunters, Ser Kerras and others rape Alain, and the Circle of Kirkwall is condemned to death for the actions of an apostate mage named Anders.

[Beerfish]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

Easy to understand, Redcliffe.  There you go.  A child that was brought up outside the circle, in a well adjusted environment, tutored by a mage and look what happened.  Many many people killed and a village and castle almost destroyed.

That's the result of having a religious organization preach how mages are "cursed" and responsible for the Thedas version of original sin. Arlessa Isolde was a pious woman of the Chantry of Andraste who wanted her only son Connor to be taught not to be a mage.

Beerfish wrote...

The child was not some evil or ambitious creature, he was just exposed to what all mages are exposed to and when it looked like his dad was dieing he made a deal.   That is the classic example of why mages are so tightly controlled.  They don't have to be bad people to do great great harm.

Aren't abominations exactly what happened at the Circle Tower because the mages wanted to be free from Chantry control? We've seen abuses to that control - Karl was illegally made tranquil on order of Ser Alrik, the child Ella was threatened with rape by Ser Alrik, templars torture one of the da'len and attempt to kill the Dalish hunters, Ser Kerras and others rape Alain, and the Circle of Kirkwall is condemned to death for the actions of an apostate mage named Anders.

Your 2nd paragraph has zero to do with the 1st part.  To try and lay blame on the chantry for the 1st paragraph os streching belief to all levels.  The child was not in the circle.  The child was brought up by loving parents.  The one parent hired a mage to teach the child how to use his magic in a controlled way and the mage says he did just that.  The child unde near ideal mage freindly environs still was subject to a demon.

The pro mage forces truly lose any and all credibility when they refuse to acknowledge that by their very nature they are dangerous.  Instead of acknowledging the real risks and trying to find the best solution to help mages thye deny anything and everything that points to the fact that mages are indeed a danger to themsleves and to others by their very nature.

For that reason you can't take any of these pro mages seriously at all and know that if they try and deflect everything that they are totally unreliable when they want to self police mages.

[DKJaigen]

Beerfish wrote...

phyreblade74 wrote...

I've never really understood the whole dynamic which has mages taken away from their families and basically refused the chance to have anything even close to a real life. How do you learn how to control your sadness, regrets, anger, and pride, if every single day you're kept from seeing or knowing happiness, hope, laughter and belonging?

Easy to understand, Redcliffe.  There you go.  A child that was brought up outside the circle, in a well adjusted environment, tutored by a mage and look what happened.  Many many people killed and a village and castle almost destroyed.

The child was not some evil or ambitious creature, he was just exposed to what all mages are exposed to and when it looked like his dad was dieing he made a deal.   That is the classic example of why mages are so tightly controlled.  They don't have to be bad people to do great great harm.

Their is a difference between tightly trained or tightly controlled you know.

[DKJaigen]

Beerfish wrote...

[

Your 2nd paragraph has zero to do with the 1st part.  To try and lay blame on the chantry for the 1st paragraph os streching belief to all levels.  The child was not in the circle.  The child was brought up by loving parents.  The one parent hired a mage to teach the child how to use his magic in a controlled way and the mage says he did just that.  The child unde near ideal mage freindly environs still was subject to a demon.

He is not far from .wrong issolde religion believes and her maternal instincts clashed. in a way the chantry is responsible for issolde's way of thinking. and as such the chantry is indirectly responsible for redcliff

[LobselVith8]

Beerfish wrote...

Your 2nd paragraph has zero to do with the 1st part.  To try and lay blame on the chantry for the 1st paragraph os streching belief to all levels. 

Not when the Chantry established the social conditions that caused Isolde to act as she did.

Beerfish wrote...

The child was not in the circle.  The child was brought up by loving parents.  The one parent hired a mage to teach the child how to use his magic in a controlled way and the mage says he did just that.  The child unde near ideal mage freindly environs still was subject to a demon.

Jowan is hardly "ideal" to teach a child to properly use magic when he's only an apprentice. He isn't trained to instruct anyone in the use of magic.

Beerfish wrote...

The pro mage forces truly lose any and all credibility when they refuse to acknowledge that by their very nature they are dangerous. 

 
No one even made this argument. No one said magic wasn't dangerous. However, Connor's ignorance of what the Desire Demon was (because she wasn't simply a "bad lady") lead to what happened. Connor wasn't trained and the social conditions created by the Chantry's anti-mage rhetoric lead to Redcliffe.

Beerfish wrote...

Instead of acknowledging the real risks and trying to find the best solution to help mages thye deny anything and everything that points to the fact that mages are indeed a danger to themsleves and to others by their very nature.

I don't think the Chantry controlled Circles are the solution - at all. Mages need to be properly trained in the use of their abilities, not imprisoned for life.

Beerfish wrote...

For that reason you can't take any of these pro mages seriously at all and know that if they try and deflect everything that they are totally unreliable when they want to self police mages.

You'll have to excuse me if I don't see the dictatorship (as dev Michael Hamilton called the Chantry controlled Circles) as a viable option when it's lead to monstrous abuses in the Kirkwall Circle and open rebellion among the remaining Circles of Magi.

[BluGirl1968]

Thank you for the great discussion. I am enjoying reading everyone's opinions.

What about the elite task force being named Holy Andraste's Wizards and Templars? or H.A.W.T.

>.>

[CyberSnakeME2]

Theres too much how and what if in the whole Mage/Templar ordeal, Thrask actually showed perhaps the best example of Mage and Templar working together, heck, look at Malcom Hawke he was a circle mage of Kirkwall was sent free by his best friend who was a Templar, true mages need supervision but when there life is nothing more than the life of a prisoner you cant blame them for going mental.

Looking at Hawke and Bethany would be good examples of how mages could be brought up not taken from their family and label them monsters, true some of them deserve that, but as one of my favorites saying goes "Push a men too far and eventually he´ll start pushing back".
The templars are bad enough and the mages giving them reason to back those statements means that this war of mage vs templar was a time bomb waiting to go off...... literly speaking.

[mhendon]

I would take the Templars away from the chantry and put them under the control of the state. The state would make laws concerning the use of magic that is not colored by Chantry rhetoric, and then use the Templars to enforce that law and be part of a normal police force. They would not be allowed to turn anyone tranquil, they would not have the Rite of Annulment or the power of life and death over any mage. If a mage breaks the law they'll be brought to court.

The Circle would be run by Mages and overseen by the state. It would be broken up into chapters, so mages could stay near home but still receive training, and still be watched. The mages would look after themselves, as long as they follow the law.

And before someone goes on about not having the resources or the Chantry would freak out and crush me, remember...I am a god...damnit.

[Threeparts]

I've mentioned this before, but my solution to the Circles would be to allow mages back into public life. Keep the Circles as learning institutions that are open to both mages and regular people for magical education: the mages learn how to use and control their abilities, and non-mages can understand how magic works to take the edge off their fear.

Over time, the Circles could be expanded into proper houses of learning, so regular people could go there to study and train in mundane arts, sciences and trades alongside the mages, with both kinds of people learning how to assist the others. Attendance could become compulsory until students reach their majority, just as schools are in our world. More education and research in all areas of study can only increase the quality of living for the whole of society.

Take away the system of Chantry law that controls what mages can and cannot do, and treat them as normal people under civil and criminal law. A murder is a murder, regardless of means, so a mage should be tried and sentenced for harming someone with magic the same way someone would if they went mad with an axe.

Incorporate the templars into regular guard forces with the same rules and regulations, just with extra knowledge and abilities that enable them to deal with mages on equal terms. Hell, let mages become templars too, if they want to. In addition to these guards being posted in towns under the control of the local lords, both regular and specialised guards could protect the students in the Circles - people would get hurt whether a mage lost control or a regular student started stabbing people, and they are there to minimise the damage.

If templars use lyrium to nullify the effects of magic on themselves, then let a few cells in every jail have lyrium baked into the walls, so that a mage can be imprisoned for punishments that don't deserve a death sentence, just as a regular person would.

There's always the risk of a fully-trained mage becoming an abomination, but there would be people trained in every community that know how to deal with it (as long as the local Bann or other authority figure was being responsible for the well-being of their people), and the risk would be lessened if the mages didn't feel the need to turn to risky blood-magic or other power out of fear.

I don't believe many mages would care for the Tevinter style of rule by the magisters: Feynriel certainly seems horrified by some of the things he sees there, and none of the mages we've had as companions thus far are interested in anything but being allowed to go about their business like regular people.
In the even that a group of mages got together determined to overthrow a kingdom, I think there'd be plenty of mages working with templars and regular people to maintain the status quo of equality. I believe few mages would want to see their loved ones sold into slavery, or having to turn to dangerous magic in order to just survive when they have the chance to live unafraid with their families in the open.

It would take many years to accomplish, I'm sure, but I believe it would be a system that would work given time and understanding.

</hopeless idealist>

[Alys555]

@Threeparts: Most of your ideas that you've said in your
post was also what I was thinking about but there are a couple of realistic
things you have to keep in mind.



First you have you realize that turning an entire society around is FAR from
easy, if even possible without some sort revolution. People must have the
desire to change it and the knowledge to know how to change it. Keep in mind
that Thedas is a very different world from ours and we posses knowledge about
education/sociology that they do not.



But this is a theoratical discussion so let's assume the above issue is not
really an issue. Then you still have to realize that these ideas will require
alot of resources: money, lyrium and knowledge. People need to be educated in
fulfulling the roles required to make a mage/non-mage society work. Sure, there
are already mages that are capable of teaching others thanks to the circle but
are there people who know how to minimize casualities when there’s an abomination
attack?

And what if there’s an abomination attack and some people
are killed/hurt? Do you think that the non-mages would just accept that? They
most likely would get frustrated especially if it happens often. A better
understanding of eachother would (partly) remedy that frustration but how are
you going to ensure that people understand eachother plight? Very few people
actually care what happens in the world except that which infects their direct
life.

Education might be a solution to that specific problem.
Like how they do it here in Holland where children are taught from a very young
age to understand different cultures and respect them. However this will mean
that a new education system for non-mages need tob e created aswell and that
children need to go to school, teacher need to be educated, buildings need to
be made, etc.

The money such a thing would require is tremendous and
you can even wonder how effective this method will be when people’s “respect
for eachother” is tested by abominations killing your family.

 

These are all things to think about. I certainly find
this discussion very interesting altough I think we already have to accept that
there will be no “perfect” solution to this problem.

 

And then the next Blight arrives.

Modifié par Alys555, 06 mai 2011 - 02:13 .

[Beerfish]

BluGirl1968 wrote...


Dissolution of the Circles and Templars creates two issues:

1) How does one train new magi?
2) How do you deal with destructive, possesed and blood mages?

To solve issue one I would institute "mage school" - like a collage for young magi. There would be parental visits, levels of responsibility and time at home with the family. The hope is that the family of the young mage and the experienced magi teaching at the college could guide the student to a life of happy productivity. ( this has given rise to entertaining thoughts for me - "What is your major?"  "Entropy." "Man, Entropy is hard. Why don't you take something easy like Creation?. Wynn is an easy A." "Dude! Anders is back with the keg!")

To solve issue two, I would create an elite joint task force of mages and soldiers with templar training to combat demons, blood magic and destructive magi. They would work togeather to stand against demons and corruption making the world safe from evil magi, kitten punchers and other corrupt individuals with power. This is even more awesome then the templars because we could give the new orginization a named that boils down into a acronym. For example, 'Association of Witches, Enchanters and Soldiers for Obtaining Malificarum Elimination" or A.W.E.S.O.M.E.

This is a good topic by the original poster despite the normal bickering between the two factions in this thread.  (My apologies to the original poster for my part in the thread hijacking.)

- Your first point is very similar to functioning circles other than the time at home bit.  I'm not sure if the Templars/Chantry would go for any longer term, away from the circle visits.  Perhaps more could be done to change the structure of the circles themselves.  Instead of forboding towers with all dorms to something more open and bit more life normal.  This would be a concession by the templars as it would be less secure.
- Part two is right now under the responsibility of the Templars.  Mages and certainly the lead mage of a circle is supposed do this already.
- The Divine and the Chantry has to be more realistic and more proactive in certain areas. At the end of the game Leliana and Cassandra show up trying to find out what has gone wrong.  The Chantry should have been well aware of the mages problems and the templar abuses in Kirkwall before the fact rather than after.  A more vigilant Chantry is need to keep closer tabs on all of their circles and nip these things in the bud.  Also some kind of relatively impartial ombudsman panel would need to be set up to address complaints from both sides.  Elthina bless her soul did a poor job of handling the situation.
- From the mage side of things, the majority of circle mages who are in fact not rampant self determinationists (self invented word?) have to be more vigilant and come down hard on those wo seek to ignore rules and thus imperal all mages.  Ignoring bad or dangerous behaviour just because a person is a fellow mage is unacceptable.

[BluGirl1968]

@Beerfish

I am not worried about thread hijacking or anything In conversation IRL the topic is fluid. I care little about the actual discussion as long as it is interesting to read and since this is the internet thread hijacking, trolling, misinterpretations due to context being removed from the sentances and so forth will happen. I simply make sure I check threads on low stress days and laugh off most of the absurdity.

Carry on, good people. I am listening.

[Master Shiori]

 I'd keep the Circles and the templars, but implement the following changes:

- Harboring a mage blooded child is no longer an offence, but joining the Circle is still mandatory for all mage blooded children. When taking a child to the Circle, the templars must be accompanied by a senior mage who's job is to explain to the parents why their child needs to join the Circle and that it would not be harmed in any way. The use of force or chains is forbidden unless resistance is offered. Parents are free to visit their children at the Circle whenever they wish. The child is free to write to his family should distance prevent regular contact.

- The Right of Tranquility can only be used against a mage who has been found guilty of consorting with demons or has conscously brought harm upon others. Even then both the Knight Commander and the First Enchanter must approve it's use.

- Mages are free to move within the tower at will, talk among themselves and make use of books, artefacts and other tools of magic not deemed dangerous by the First Enchanter. Apprentices and lower ranked mages are free to temporary leave the tower with the approval of both First Enchanter and Knight Commander, but must be accompanied by either a senior mage or a templar escort, both to protect the mages in question from fear or ignorance of common people and to ensure they follow the Circle's rules. Senior mages are free to leave for a limited time with First Enchanters approval. Phylacteries are still used and kept in the tower under templar guard. Only the First Enchanter and Knight Commander have access to them.

- Templars are to ensure a safe environment for the mages to live and study in, but also have the right to inspect any research done by mages at any time. They are free to search any part of the tower should the Knight Commander consider it necessary, but First Enchanter or a senior mage needs to be present during the search.
Should any mage be caught breaking the rules, the templars can apprehend him/her, but cannot take any other action without the knowledge of both the Knight Commander and the First Enchanter and the formers approval. Any templar found abusing his authority or his charges will be immediately suspended from duty with further punishment determined by Knight Commander or Knight Captain.

- The Right of Anuulment can be invoked when the Circle is deemed lost, either by being overrun by demons or when the majority of mages has resorted to forbidden magic. Invoking the RoA requires the agreement of Knight Commander, First Enchanter and the Grand Cleric. In case one of them is dead or absent, the decision falls to those present. During the RoA, the templars are free to kill anyone offering resistance. Children and adult mages who surrender peacefully are to be placed in a year long quarantine to ensure they are free of demonic influence or  haven't succumbed to forbidden knowledge. Any  quarantinedmage who commits an offence during that time is to either be made tranquil or executed. 

- Any country that contains a Circle of Magi is required to have an appropriate number of Seekers of Truth present at all time. They are to monitor the templars and mages and conduct a throrough inspection of conditions and practices in Circles once a month,  to ensure the templars don't abuse their authority or fail in their duties. They have full authority over any templar or mage, regardless of rank.


There should also be rules governing marriage between 2 mages or a mage and non mage, as well as for when a mage is free to start a family. Any children born of such a union are raised by their parents and not given to the Chantry.

Modifié par Master Shiori, 07 mai 2011 - 06:58 .

[Nyreen]

StaceysChain wrote...

I'd do the same thing as you BluGirl1968.

This.