161 réponses à ce sujet

[Ahglock]

I thought it was lame and yes it it breaks immersion/emotional involvement, less engaging what ever you want to call it. But it was not really high on my list of ways they removed RPG features.

[Walker White]

flem1 wrote...

I know you Hardcore True RPG Fans want nothing getting in your way of the *real* fun of selling trash loot at the Normandy vendor, but this is not normal.

I seriously want a vendor in ME3 whom, when you try to sell trash loot says "Why would I want your second hand garbage?  I have my own fabrication plant right here.  Recycle your garbage like everyone else."

[Xeranx]

mrsph wrote...

But really,

Am I the only person not bothered by Femshep's animations or the Mission Complete screen? Compared to stuff like mineral scanning it was pretty innocuous. And I liked to read Cerberus' thoughts on the current mission anyway.

My immersion? It's a videogame, I can't get immersed in it.

That's a shame.  I tend to get lost in a good story whether it's a game or a book.  Of course my imagination is better engaged in a book because I try to come up with the various ways people and places look, but in a game it shouldn't be any different.

Walker White wrote...

flem1 wrote...

I know you Hardcore True RPG Fans want nothing getting in your way of the *real* fun of selling trash loot at the Normandy vendor, but this is not normal.

I seriously want a vendor in ME3 whom, when you try to sell trash loot says "Why would I want your second hand garbage?  I have my own fabrication plant right here.  Recycle your garbage like everyone else."

In response to that I wish there was something of merit to junk loot.  For those who've played Parasite Eve, I remember all that junk that we picked up and I kept wondering why I was actually picking up stuff that was marked junk.  I remember looking at a guide and found out that I could create two items a gun and a vest.  300 pieces of junk each.  I ran through that game 4 times just for that alone.  If junk loot is going to be in any game there should be a point to the junk than something to sell off.  

I think I should post this on the DA2 boards.

Modifié par Xeranx, 30 avril 2011 - 10:38 .

[Ahglock]

termokanden wrote...

Blooddrunk1004 wrote...

First of all its not copying anything, its how RPG game works. And second if there's anything that Complete screen is copying is ending of every level in FPS or RTS games. If you played other RPGs you would get my point but if you would miss upgrade thats your own fault.  God, so many streamlined fans...

You're way off with this post. First of all, I'm a huge fan of RPGs. Played pen and paper RPGs: AD&D, Vampire, Call of Cthulhu, etc. I also played a lot of computer RPGs, starting around the time Baldur's Gate was released.

What I mean is this: You don't need to do things the way other games have done so far to be an RPG. That really has nothing to do with it. You're claiming I'm a "streamlined fan" and yet you're saying RPGs can never have mission complete screens?

You can still argue that it's not a good idea. But it doesn't mean the game is not an RPG.

Sure, but if something is more common to genre X and not really in RPGs that aspect might not be RPG like.  Saying ME2 isn't a RPG because of X is usually unwaranted, but saying that part is not RPG like or is not influenced by RPGs might be accurate.

 As games begin to blend genre's there does come a point where it might feel more in another genre than the one someone expected.  What that point is will vary from person to person especially since there isn't really a hard definition of the various computer game genres.  For all I know Call of Duty 6 might add enough RPG features that its core fan base will get upset for it being a RPG and not a true shooter.  

Mass Effect is defined as a hybrid game a action, RPG, shooter.  It always has been, but if it is too weak in one of those areas and someone really is a fan of that genre they will be underwhelmed.  Like I think shooter fans were not impressed with ME1's shooting game, which was not a good thing since it was supposed to be a hybrid.  A hybrid that fails in one of its bases isn't a very successful hybrid game.  Hybrids are always hard to pull off.(hybrid classes in RPGs as well), you want every side of the equation to be strong, but lots of time strong features in one genre directly contradict with the features in the other genre.  So you might end up with strong in one and weak the other or mediocre in both.  

Where that balance should be is up to the individual, i liked both games quite a bit.  Some things from ME1 failed, some things from ME2 failed, some things in both were hits.  

[Walker White]

Xeranx wrote...

In response to that I wish there was something of merit to junk loot.  For those who've played Parasite Eve, I remember all that junk that we picked up and I kept wondering why I was actually picking up stuff that was marked junk.  I remember looking at a guide and found out that I could create two items a gun and a vest.  300 pieces of junk each.  I ran through that game 4 times just for that alone.  If junk loot is going to be in any game there should be a point to the junk than something to sell off.  

The problem is that, in a world of desktop-sized fabrication plants (e.g. 3D printers), there is nothing of resale value beyond base resources and schematics.  Which is exactly the loot you find in ME2.

[termokanden]

Ahglock wrote...

Sure, but if something is more common to genre X and not really in RPGs that aspect might not be RPG like.  Saying ME2 isn't a RPG because of X is usually unwaranted, but saying that part is not RPG like or is not influenced by RPGs might be accurate.

I agree to the extent that if you define RPGs as what they're usually like and you've played previous BioWare titles and similar games, this is not a feature that is "RPG like".

But I still think it's wrong to say it makes the game less of an RPG. It really doesn't mean there's less roleplaying going on. Perhaps it makes it more like a computer game and less of a continuous story being told. I think that's a much better point to make. Even if it didn't really annoy me, I can certainly understand if that is considered a problem.

We're not really arguing about whether the mission complete screens detract from that game or not. As I've said, I understand if they do for some people and it's something for BioWare to consider.

By the way, some gamemasters in my pen and paper days would give you a small debriefing after each roleplaying session where XP would be handed out and you could discuss out of character what happened a bit. Actually it's kind of the same thing as giving you a screen after each mission that says "You earned 156 xp".

Modifié par termokanden, 30 avril 2011 - 10:59 .

[Lunatic LK47]

mrsph wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

So quick and accessible = not-RPG? Or RPG = slow and confusing?

If I don't have to crunch a bunch of numbers then it sucks!

Yup, that same mentality why I hold Gatt, Terror K, and Gleym in a very low regard.

[eternalnightmare13]

MajesticJazz wrote...

- Will Bioware bring back the infamous "Mission Complete" screen from ME2

- Will female Shepard's walking/running animations be based around that of a male like in ME2 instead of like a female in ME1 

Mission Complete screens annoyed the heck outta me, early on.  Felt like something from some 1990's era action game like Metal Gear or Splinter Cell.  Not a damned rpg.  I just skip it quickly now so it's notta an issue.

Rather NOT see them in ME3.

Bring back the XP/Creds/Loot pop up on screen from ME1!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Walker White]

eternalnightmare13 wrote...

Bring back the XP/Creds/Loot pop up on screen from ME1!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Except that this allowed you to level up mid mission.  Historically, that was frowned upon in RPGs.  Leveling up used to require training outside of the mission.  Now with the Mission Complete mechanic, you force all XP to the end of the mission, preventing someone from leveling up mid-mission.

[termokanden]

Walker White wrote...

Except that this allowed you to level up mid mission.  Historically, that was frowned upon in RPGs.  Leveling up used to require training outside of the mission.  Now with the Mission Complete mechanic, you force all XP to the end of the mission, preventing someone from leveling up mid-mission.

Yes, now that you mention it, we did that too. You would never learn a new spell or skill immediately. It would be explained that your character spent time training, sometimes for months. You wouldn't just slay an ogre and suddenly have a new ability.

[KrazyKiko]

Xeranx wrote...

mrsph wrote...

But really,

Am I the only person not bothered by Femshep's animations or the Mission Complete screen? Compared to stuff like mineral scanning it was pretty innocuous. And I liked to read Cerberus' thoughts on the current mission anyway.

My immersion? It's a videogame, I can't get immersed in it.

That's a shame.  I tend to get lost in a good story whether it's a game or a book.  Of course my imagination is better engaged in a book because I try to come up with the various ways people and places look, but in a game it shouldn't be any different.

I agree...what I loved about ME1 was the immersion...the flow of the game and how it was a complete rollercoaster ride.  There was no "station" to get on/off like those "Mission Complete" screens of ME2.  I hope ME3 is more like ME1 in this regard...bring back the immersion.

[Xeranx]

mrsph wrote...

Xeranx wrote...


That's a shame.  I tend to get lost in a good story whether it's a game or a book.  Of course my imagination is better engaged in a book because I try to come up with the various ways people and places look, but in a game it shouldn't be any different.

Oh, I can get immersed in a good book.

Movies and games are a little bit too visual and I can't really do that with them.

Oh, I understand and I believe it's in those cases that characterization comes into play more than trying to get you to visualize the world.  It's like watching a game and cheering for your team to an extent if it's done right.

I remember watching "Chase" (I think it was the first or the second episode) and I was rooting for the villain to get away because he wasn't just a bad guy who they wanted to catch.  He was personified as a guy who had a good heart despite being a criminal and the actor managed to express that even given the little on-screen time he had.  It also didn't help that the protagonists just didn't seem to resonate the same charisma despite much of the focus being on them and they being goody-goody (which I have no problem with). 

[Walker White]

Xeranx wrote...

Oh, I understand and I believe it's in those cases that characterization comes into play more than trying to get you to visualize the world.  It's like watching a game and cheering for your team to an extent if it's done right.

This is exactly what I meant by my earlier "immersion" vs "engagement" post.

[mawdudi]

The mission completed thing was ok...the only thing it was missing was some sound effects. I still remember clearly C&C(the first one from nineties)mission failed screen sound effect..."MISSION FAILED". It's still stuck in my head.

[Lunatic LK47]

Walker White wrote...


Except that this allowed you to level up mid mission.  Historically, that was frowned upon in RPGs.  Leveling up used to require training outside of the mission.  Now with the Mission Complete mechanic, you force all XP to the end of the mission, preventing someone from leveling up mid-mission.

Uh, problem with ME1's system. I had been indunated with so much crap that I want to experience the gameplay without being told "Congratulations, you got 150 items" or "Congratulations, you leveled up." It's the equivalent of watching an action movie on DVD and being bombarded with constant commercials when you're watching the movie.

[AlanC9]

How is it that a mission complete screen breaks immersion, but XP popups all the freakin' time don't?

[Lunatic LK47]

AlanC9 wrote...

How is it that a mission complete screen breaks immersion, but XP popups all the freakin' time don't?

Thanks, Alan.

[b1n0ry]

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

MajesticJazz wrote...

- Will Bioware bring back the infamous "Mission Complete" screen from ME2

- Will female Shepard's walking/running animations be based around that of a male like in ME2 instead of like a female in ME1 

Did you HAD to put that one?

have *

And no, I absolutely DON'T want to see either of those in my ME3.

Yay, for Engrish grammah!

[MichaelRKO]

I really don't understand what was bad about it I personally couldn't care less if it was included or not.

[Gatt9]

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

mrsph wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

So quick and accessible = not-RPG? Or RPG = slow and confusing?

If I don't have to crunch a bunch of numbers then it sucks!

Yup, that same mentality why I hold Gatt, Terror K, and Gleym in a very low regard.

No,  you hold us in "Very low regard" because...
 
-you have yet to present a point
-pretty consistently demonstrate you're unable to use Google to research things before you try to use them as evidence
-keep trying to use Marketing PR pieces as evidence
-think that you shouldn't have to learn how to play an RPG to play an RPG
-think that swearing at people makes you right
-are astoundingly wrong with just about every post you make.

And we call you on it rather than let you get away with posting pure opinion as fact.  Obviously,  we're still at point one,  where you posted about how you shouldn't have to read anything to play a game,  and here you are complaining about the fact that RPGs are based in math.

Regardless,  don't lie about it,  you don't like us because we call you on all of the above,  it's got nothing to do with the presence of math in RPGs,  and everything to do with the fact that you don't like our counterpoints and you're unable to compose a response that isn't some cuss-word filled version of "You shut up!  What I like is the only thing that's right for all games!"

Uh, problem with ME1's system. I had been indunated with so much crap that I want to experience the gameplay without being told "Congratulations, you got 150 items" or "Congratulations, you leveled up." It's the equivalent of watching an action movie on DVD and being bombarded with constant commercials when you're watching the movie.

1.  Bad news,  that is the gameplay in an RPG.
2.  Do you plan on admitting you hate RPGs and love Shooters anytime soon?  Or will we still be doing this for a few more months?
3.  I'm still really confused about why you bought an RPG when you don't like their mechanics.  I don't like flight sims,  I'm not going to go buy one and then complain it doesn't play like Wing Commander.

I know,  I know...

"You shut up!  What I like is the only thing that's right for all games!"

Just copy and paste it and add whatever cusswords you're into today into it,  save us both some time. 

[Xeranx]

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

Walker White wrote...


Except that this allowed you to level up mid mission.  Historically, that was frowned upon in RPGs.  Leveling up used to require training outside of the mission.  Now with the Mission Complete mechanic, you force all XP to the end of the mission, preventing someone from leveling up mid-mission.

Uh, problem with ME1's system. I had been indunated with so much crap that I want to experience the gameplay without being told "Congratulations, you got 150 items" or "Congratulations, you leveled up." It's the equivalent of watching an action movie on DVD and being bombarded with constant commercials when you're watching the movie.

How is that different from getting pop-ups saying which badges you've earned in ME2?  You'll see something like "incinerated someone's armor 3 of 25".  Seems like you've overcome your wont of not seeing the pop-ups so I don't know why you'd use it against ME just because.

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

How is it that a mission complete screen breaks immersion, but XP popups all the freakin' time don't?

Thanks, Alan.

I always turn that off before I start playing any game if there's an option to do so.  I also turn off floating names of spells (though that makes sense if you're a spellcaster and your character should know what spell it is) and damage numbers.  

Modifié par Xeranx, 01 mai 2011 - 07:28 .

[Lunatic LK47]

Xeranx wrote...



How is that different from getting pop-ups saying which badges you've earned in ME2?  You'll see something like "incinerated someone's armor 3 of 25".  Seems like you've overcome your wont of not seeing the pop-ups so I don't know why you'd use it against ME just because.

How about for the fact that I have to pause the game every single battle to re-organize things? Would you enjoy Rambo if commercials kept popping up in every action scene?

[Admoniter]

I can deal with the mission complete screens if they are properly done. But at the same time the squad debrief was so much better, instead of the grocery list end of level screens that ME2 gives us. That said I wouldn't mind seeing them as an optional thing. Put a data pad in Sheps quarters that allows them to review past missions, with basic cliff notes for each mission.

And for the love of god don't have it written from TIMs perspective, or anyone else like him for that matter. Either have it something objectivelly written by Shepard, or have it written by EDI (or something like EDI.)

Modifié par Admoniter, 01 mai 2011 - 07:33 .

[Lunatic LK47]

Gatt9 wrote...

And we call you on it rather than let you get away with posting pure opinion as fact.  Obviously,  we're still at point one,  where you posted about how you shouldn't have to read anything to play a game,  and here you are complaining about the fact that RPGs are based in math.

Look, dick-weed. I gave you OTHER LINKS. You still have the idiot ball. Don't you have anything better to do? Here's a hint. Hit a local Barnes and Nobles, idiot.

Modifié par Lunatic LK47, 01 mai 2011 - 07:34 .