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[Recon Member]

Kolyat as squadmate? Just be cause he can use a gun doesn't make him a soldier

[Konfined]

walk0nwalls wrote...

What bothers me about Jacob and for a lot of the cast is I never got a sense of WHY it was important to these individuals save for, well,  I guess Jacob's the exception but Jacob did not ever truly present a unique perspective, if that makes sense. It's not indicated why his absent father was so important and what that meant to him in the way that other scenarios clearly laid out. 

Jacob's loyalty mission was pretty much pure coincidence, the way I see it.  Miranda happened to stumble upon Ronald's distress signal, remembered some bit of dialog that occurred between her and Jacob, and decided to beam it to Jacob's computer.  All in all, I don't think Jacob really did care about it, but he still didn't want it on his mind while dealing with the Collector situation.

[Almostfaceman]

walk0nwalls wrote...

Ever did it occur to you that the characters in Mass Effect 2 approached near-certain annihilation with an inssuficient degree of gravity? 

Even Shepherd, the title character approaches his/her ressurrection from death with the casual shrug of the shoulder of a person being told that their toast was singed. "Oh well, these things just happen I guess." 

Death is not something that is approached with sufficient gravity in Mass Effect 2, and that was always one of my chief complaints with the title. 

In all honesty though, count how many times your companion characters mention death in their conversations with you. how many times do your crew members speak to you about the NEAR-CERTAIN ANNIHILATION they will be heading towards? If they've got all-but-certain faith that you will lead them through this alive, it seems that that's the sort of thing that might bear mention maybe once or twice in the course of conversation, even as I do love the engineers. 

People rightfully derided the companion quests in Mass Effect 2 not because they were too long, but because they were too irrelevant to the characters. With Garrus - having killed/not killed Sedonis - is he now ready to face death? Is that what he was living for? Vengeance? The ramifications and ruminiations upon what he's been living his life for never flitted across his brain?

Jacob - worst situation ever- congratulations! You've discovered your father! Is that something that was distinctly important to you? If there was anything to fault Jacob with it was that he was too distinctly uninvolved with everything. In fact, I'm going to take this moment to term the tonal problems of Mass Effect 2 "Jacob's problem" because no character approached the CONSTANTLY REPEATED "Suicide mission" with as little care as Jacob. 

Grunt - Grunt has just been born. You don't suppose he'd have more than a few concerns about dying instantly?

Tali - one of the reasons why Tali works is because it does seem that she's been nursing something of a pet crush from game 1. That said, if that's her reason for joining the suicide mission (Shepherd + me 4evas!) then breaking her heart should've provided more, well, interesting results. Whereby you could ostensibly coax her into accepting a nominally short existence, or deride her for making such a rash decision stupidly and thereby infringing upon her combat abilities to the point where she could barely fire a gun for wont of crying. 

See, we could've made both Tali-fans and Tali-haters happy. 

Jack - Jack is a nihilist. Self-destructive behavior. Has issues. Makes sense. 

Miranda - follows orders, yes. But following orders into an inferno having dedicated her life to an organization that will now send her to be killed? She's surprisingly blase about that whole angle on things. 

Samara - duty driven, makes sense. 

Thane - dude's gonna die in 3 months. Why the hell not?

Kasumi - sharp tongue aside, she's nursing a fairly significant heartbreak. Feasable. 

Legion - who the hell knows what he thinks really.
 
Look. I love the series as much as anyone else. But what I'm saying is that death was an incredibly unaddressed theme during the second game. Considering that the entire plot of the game revolved around being presented as a suicide mission, this seems positively insane. Almost resolutely mad. I think that formed the emotional basis for a lot of criticism of the second game and its oft-utterly disconnected companion quests. How many times were you reminded in very real terms of the emotional consequences of death and life being cut short before its prime. How did you - Shepherd - deal with the reality of being ressurected only to be tossed back to death like a plaything? How did other characters react to the idea of you coming back from the dead only to throw your life away again? Udina/Wrex, Alenko, Ashley? Surely they would've had more opinions on your SUICIDE MISSION than your association with Cerberus. 

At any rate, that's all I had to say. Whilst I did enjoy Mass Effect 2, everyone proceeded through the game interacting with Shepherd as though their survival was nothing short of writ in stone providential certainty when in fact it was perpetually repeated that everyone involved was engaged in a SUICIDE MISSION. Why didn't we get everyone's opinion on how they'd lived their lives and their appraisal of the likelihood of the crew's collective survival? It seems a missed opportunity for much more interesting characterization, even as the alotted episodes were very interesting in and of themselves. 

Well one thing's for sure, you're not insufficiently picky.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

walk0nwalls wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I'm also tired of this kind of angst. Oh woe is me, I have to save the universe... so I'm going to cry about it. Yeah it's kinda sad that I might die, but if I go into the mission thinking "well, I'm probably going to die, let me be all sad about it" rather than "Well, time to save the world again, let's see what happens." I'm not going to be as effective.

With FemShep at least, you got this sort of world-weary vibe from her throughout. Like she was getting tired of all this death and near-death and loss. But she's too awesome to show it, and she knows that sulking will just make her less effective. So she deals with it.

Grim does not necessarily entail sulkiness but it does inform the tone of an overall piece. If death has a due date and a set point it necessarily informs the behavior of all individuals headed towards death. I think some of the best pieces of fiction explore this and no, the behavior is not always wraught and emotional as you seem to suggest. Frequently it's quiet and introspective, which, now looking upon it, I now realize to be as palatable to the average audience as marbles are to cats. 

I'm just saying it would've been nice to have heard some interesting perspectives on what would've constituted a meaningful life for each character. It's an incredible opportunity for characterization and an exploration of the values of both your companions and the title character to have those conversations out in the open, conversations that normally would not take place in any other circumstance. What a fantastic opportunity! Don't you think?

I don't know, pretty much every piece of life or death science fiction and fantasy I read has that "well, let's go off to our deaths... I'm thinking about everything I'm leaving behind" moment. Maybe I just read too much SF&F. It's not the introspection that bothers me, it's that 80% of heroes act exactly the same way, without any regard to how they usually behave.

To go down your list of squadmates: 

Jacob - soldier, used to risking his life. Part of the job by now, probably got used to thinking about his imminent death years ago.
Miranda - similar to Jacob
Mordin - old, has lived the last decade of his life ready to die. Not particularly troubled.
Thane - similar to Mordin.
Garrus - when you recruit him, he's basically about to die in a blaze of self-sacrificial glory. Any bonus time is just gravy.
Legion - inorganic lifeform, doesn't view death the same way.
Kasumi - she's a bit of a mystery, but seems fine with risking her life for somewhat silly-seeming things.
Samara - justicar, has already fulfilled her life's work.
Grunt - if the battle is good, dying during it is a bonus.
Zaeed - what he he gonna do, cry about it like a goddamned pansy?
Jack - Jack is not gonna let anyone see her sweat, unless you romance her.
Tali - Now Tali should be nervous, sure but I think her faith in Shepard is strong enough that she doesn't really feel the danger.


One of my favorite moments in all of fiction has two male characters sitting in a bar, talking about the apocalyptic doom that threatens the world. I can't find an exact quote, so I'll paraphrase it here:

"Well, we're going to die, but let's go die fighting." they say, grimly determined. Their female companion speaks up.
"No."
"You don't have to come if you don't want to."
"I'm not saying I'm not coming. I'm saying that thinking you're going to die is stupid. If you even have a 1% chance of winning, that becomes 0% if you go there believing you are doomed. So we're going to fight and we're going to win."

I hate fatalism. Hate it. And honestly, when you're probably doomed, talking about how doomed you are just messes with morale. If I'm facing a bad situation, I want to hear "we've got this." And it never... bloody... happens. I find the aplomb that Garrus and all the rest have about the suicide mission downright refreshing, actually. And sensible!

During most of the romances there's some acknowledgement of the whole situation. From Garrus's "one moment just for us before we throw ourselves into hell," to Thane's "I am afraid, and it shames me," or Jacob's "So how about you? what are you carrying?" That's enough for me.

Then again, if you play manshep, maybe you miss out on those little moments. If so, the solution is obvious.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 29 avril 2011 - 09:02 .

[JeffZero]

Ah, thank you, Cultural. I needed an espresso shot's reminder of why I love ME2's cast so goddamn much.

[walk0nwalls]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I don't know, pretty much every piece of life or death science fiction and fantasy I read has that "well, let's go off to our deaths... I'm thinking about everything I'm leaving behind" moment. Maybe I just read too much SF&F. It's not the introspection that bothers me, it's that 80% of heroes act exactly the same way, without any regard to how they usually behave.

To go down your list of squadmates: 

Jacob - soldier, used to risking his life. Part of the job by now, probably got used to thinking about his imminent death years ago.
Miranda - similar to Jacob
Mordin - old, has lived the last decade of his life ready to die. Not particularly troubled.
Thane - similar to Mordin.
Garrus - when you recruit him, he's basically about to die in a blaze of self-sacrificial glory. Any bonus time is just gravy.
Legion - inorganic lifeform, doesn't view death the same way.
Kasumi - she's a bit of a mystery, but seems fine with risking her life for somewhat silly-seeming things.
Samara - justicar, has already fulfilled her life's work.
Grunt - if the battle is good, dying during it is a bonus.
Zaeed - what he he gonna do, cry about it like a goddamned pansy?
Jack - Jack is not gonna let anyone see her sweat, unless you romance her.
Tali - Now Tali should be nervous, sure but I think her faith in Shepard is strong enough that she doesn't really feel the danger.


One of my favorite moments in all of fiction has two male characters sitting in a bar, talking about the apocalyptic doom that threatens the world. I can't find an exact quote, so I'll paraphrase it here:

"Well, we're going to die, but let's go die fighting." they say, grimly determined. Their female companion speaks up.
"No."
"You don't have to come if you don't want to."
"I'm not saying I'm not coming. I'm saying that thinking you're going to die is stupid. If you even have a 1% chance of winning, that becomes 0% if you go there believing you are doomed. So we're going to fight and we're going to win."

I hate fatalism. Hate it. And honestly, when you're probably doomed, talking about how doomed you are just messes with morale. If I'm facing a bad situation, I want to hear "we've got this." And it never... bloody... happens. I find the aplomb that Garrus and all the rest have about the suicide mission downright refreshing, actually. And sensible!

During most of the romances there's some acknowledgement of the whole situation. From Garrus's "one moment just for us before we throw ourselves into hell," to Thane's "I am afraid, and it shames me," or Jacob's "So how about you? what are you carrying?" That's enough for me.

Then again, if you play manshep, maybe you miss out on those little moments. If so, the solution is obvious.

But even in the abovementioned scenario - your favorite, as you mention - that's the sort of conversation I'm talking about! People have very divergent attitudes regarding how they have lived their lives and it typically comes to a head in how they want to head out into their deaths. Yourself, you value optimism and resent fatalism and the two abovementioned individuals would seemingly prefer to face eternity resisting the inevitable. But that their perspective is the only one that is possible is not the case, as you have demonstrated. There are very divergent, different reactions to death and it typically causes conflict as people don't generally wish to approach death in the same way. 

For you, it could be optimism, which informs your frustration with people who are resigned to their death sentences. 

For others, it could be yet something different, or different interpretations of what it means to have a life well-lived. That's the sort of thing I'm interested in: different perspectives in conflict with one another. After all, what's sensible for you could be delusional for others and what improves morale for you could be a distraction for others. It's tricky business and it's all motivated by a wonderful premise: a date on death. 

[Almostfaceman]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I don't know, pretty much every piece of life or death science fiction and fantasy I read has that "well, let's go off to our deaths... I'm thinking about everything I'm leaving behind" moment. Maybe I just read too much SF&F. It's not the introspection that bothers me, it's that 80% of heroes act exactly the same way, without any regard to how they usually behave.

To go down your list of squadmates: 

Jacob - soldier, used to risking his life. Part of the job by now, probably got used to thinking about his imminent death years ago.
Miranda - similar to Jacob
Mordin - old, has lived the last decade of his life ready to die. Not particularly troubled.
Thane - similar to Mordin.
Garrus - when you recruit him, he's basically about to die in a blaze of self-sacrificial glory. Any bonus time is just gravy.
Legion - inorganic lifeform, doesn't view death the same way.
Kasumi - she's a bit of a mystery, but seems fine with risking her life for somewhat silly-seeming things.
Samara - justicar, has already fulfilled her life's work.
Grunt - if the battle is good, dying during it is a bonus.
Zaeed - what he he gonna do, cry about it like a goddamned pansy?
Jack - Jack is not gonna let anyone see her sweat, unless you romance her.
Tali - Now Tali should be nervous, sure but I think her faith in Shepard is strong enough that she doesn't really feel the danger.


One of my favorite moments in all of fiction has two male characters sitting in a bar, talking about the apocalyptic doom that threatens the world. I can't find an exact quote, so I'll paraphrase it here:

"Well, we're going to die, but let's go die fighting." they say, grimly determined. Their female companion speaks up.
"No."
"You don't have to come if you don't want to."
"I'm not saying I'm not coming. I'm saying that thinking you're going to die is stupid. If you even have a 1% chance of winning, that becomes 0% if you go there believing you are doomed. So we're going to fight and we're going to win."

I hate fatalism. Hate it. And honestly, when you're probably doomed, talking about how doomed you are just messes with morale. If I'm facing a bad situation, I want to hear "we've got this." And it never... bloody... happens. I find the aplomb that Garrus and all the rest have about the suicide mission downright refreshing, actually. And sensible!

During most of the romances there's some acknowledgement of the whole situation. From Garrus's "one moment just for us before we throw ourselves into hell," to Thane's "I am afraid, and it shames me," or Jacob's "So how about you? what are you carrying?" That's enough for me.

Then again, if you play manshep, maybe you miss out on those little moments. If so, the solution is obvious.

I play nothing but manshep and the only one who really seems a little afraid is Jacob.  But for Shep, ah yes. It's just another day at the office. Gotta love 'im.

I almost expected him to jump out of the Normandy yelling that famous Marine line "C'mon you sons of biotches! You wanna live forever?"

[walk0nwalls]

Almostfaceman wrote...

I play nothing but manshep and the only one who really seems a little afraid is Jacob.  But for Shep, ah yes. It's just another day at the office. Gotta love 'im.

I almost expected him to jump out of the Normandy yelling that famous Marine line "C'mon you sons of biotches! You wanna live forever?"

I see nuance is lost upon the Marines. I may yet be fighting a losing battle. 

[CulturalGeekGirl]

walk0nwalls wrote...

But even in the abovementioned scenario - your favorite, as you mention - that's the sort of conversation I'm talking about! People have very divergent attitudes regarding how they have lived their lives and it typically comes to a head in how they want to head out into their deaths. Yourself, you value optimism and resent fatalism and the two abovementioned individuals would seemingly prefer to face eternity resisting the inevitable. But that their perspective is the only one that is possible is not the case, as you have demonstrated. There are very divergent, different reactions to death and it typically causes conflict as people don't generally wish to approach death in the same way. 

For you, it could be optimism, which informs your frustration with people who are resigned to their death sentences. 

For others, it could be yet something different, or different interpretations of what it means to have a life well-lived. That's the sort of thing I'm interested in: different perspectives in conflict with one another. After all, what's sensible for you could be delusional for others and what improves morale for you could be a distraction for others. It's tricky business and it's all motivated by a wonderful premise: a date on death.

And I'm saying that every single member of the crew has a reason for their optimism and bravery. If you talk to them and listen to them, you'll hear it.

I don't have time to go to my save and type out all the lines, but I can recall the specific things for my favorite characters: 

Mordin - He's proud of what we're doing, and if he dies he'll be proud posthumously. He's doing it for his family, his favorite nephew, and the universe.

Jacob - doesn't let angst get to him. He's either sure that he'll be sipping drinks with you on the citadel in a few weeks, or he's acting like he's sure. Jacob doesn't want to be psychoanalzyed anyway.

Grunt - has everything he wants, and he's fighting the most dangerous possible enemy.

Garrus (romanced) is really a live-for-the moment kind of guy. So while he does believe death is imminent, that just makes him want to live life to the fullest right now.

Thane: unromanced - he is content to die, having fixed all his problems. He's been awaiting death for many years (or, romanced) he is afraid, and he doesn't want to be.

Tali: she trusts you more than anyone in the universe.

These conversations are there. You can talk to people and they tell you why they're not worried, why they're not contemplating their death or, if they are, how they're responding to it. True, not all characters have them if not romanced, But it can't be perfect. And I really can't imaging a single member of that particular crew being terrified in that way. Maybe Tali, yes, but I think having her be the one character to admit her worry would weaken her character. She's a kid, but she's being strong, like everyone else, because she trusts you.

Kaidan or Ash? I can see them angsting about it a little. Even Liara. But my sweet ME2 team? I can't see it for any of them. I would like slightly longer conversations with all of them that express the same emotions that current conversations express... and I'd like more dialogue for non-romanced LI characters. But beyond that, I see nothing wrong with the general attitude of each person, based on all the factors I've listed here and above.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 29 avril 2011 - 09:31 .

[AdmiralCheez]

What CulturalGeekGirl said.

Also, if you ask Garrus about what he thinks about your odds of survival, he admits that he thinks people are going to die, but promises not to dampen the rest of the crew's enthusiasm.

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 29 avril 2011 - 09:33 .

[walk0nwalls]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

And I'm saying that every single member of the crew has a reason for their optimism and bravery. If you talk to them and listen to them, you'll hear it.

I don't have time to go to my save and type out all the lines, but I can recall the specific things for my favorite characters: 

Mordin - He's proud of what we're doing, and if he dies he'll be proud posthumously. He's doing it for his family, his favorite nephew, and the universe.

Jacob - doesn't let angst get to him. He's either sure that he'll be sipping drinks with you on the citadel in a few weeks, or he's acting like he's sure. Jacob doesn't want to be psychoanalzyed anyway.

Grunt - has everything he wants, and he's fighting the most dangerous possible enemy.

Garrus (romanced) is really a live-for-the moment kind of guy. So while he does believe death is imminent, that just makes him want to live life to the fullest right now.

Thane: unromanced - he is content to die, having fixed all his problems. He's been awaiting death for many years (or, romanced) he is afraid, and he doesn't want to be.

Tali: she trusts you more than anyone in the universe.

These conversations are there. You can talk to people and they tell you why they're not worried, why they're not contemplating their death or, if they are, how they're responding to it. True, not all characters have them if not romanced, But it can't be perfect. And I really can't imaging a single member of that particular crew being terrified in that way. Maybe Tali, yes, but I think having her be the one character to admit her worry would weaken her character. She's a kid, but she's being strong, like everyone else, because she trusts you.

Kaidan or Ash? I can see them angsting about it a little. Even Liara. But my sweet ME2 team? I can't see it for any of them. I would like slightly longer conversations with all of them that express the same emotions that current conversations express... and I'd like more dialogue for non-romanced LI characters. But beyond that, I see nothing wrong with the general attitude of each person, based on all the factors I've listed here and above.

Then I'll simply concede and accept that I'm fishing about for something that ain't there. That said, I'd like a game of that ilk and the closest that Bioware's come is their most recent venture, DA2. My favorite dialogue string from that entire game is Female neutralHawke who actually expresses the most complex and interesting perspective of the three alternating perspectives. 

Hers is one that values stability, freedom, and happiness above all things all under the guise of gross inappropriateness so when (spoiler alert) things go to **** around the end of DA2, she expresses her sorrow in the face of near certain annihilation with a continued hope that her band of friends will still be able to grab a drink at the end of all events. 

More than Good Hawke - the saint - and Bad Hawke - The Marine- Neutral laughs Hawke loses everything at the end of DA2 simply because Good & Evil still have a universe in which to inhabit. Neutral Laughs Hawke, everything that she  values has been destroyed and there really is no getting it back, more so than the others because Good Hawke will still be able to be a saint, Bad Hawke will still be able to overcompensate, but Laughs Hawke simply has to keep on smiling and believing in the quality of people's lives even as that very quality of life is leaching out of the universe as quickly as it can. 

Of any Bioware RPG I've played, I found that to be the most tragic and compelling story. 

I don't mind optimism and bravery, I don't. I'd just like a space for the neutral option. While it may be true that all the companions are as you say they are, I do wish there were someone inhabiting that neutral space of neither being angry with their situation nor facing oblivion bravely. I'd like a wider diversity of expressed philosophical viewpoints and individuals who are resolutely motivated by convictions not born of their cultural upbringings. 

I'd like - as it were - more definition and nuances in how we conceive of bravery and the manifold ways in which we can approach courage. And I'd like people to speak honestly of their minds, in any fiction really. 

And while we're at it, I'd like a pony too. 

[aimlessgun]

Saphra Deden wrote...

What I want to know is when the mission became a suicide mission. Shepard all of a sudden starts talking about it like they're all going to die, long before he is ever told about the odds.

When the the AA guns on Horizon defeated the collector ship, she probably started to suspect it wasn't a suicide mission. When the revelation comes that the Collectors probably only have this 1 relatively weak ship, it's pretty much confirmed that it is not in fact a suicide mission.

So really I think you're told it's a suicide mission at the start of the game, and then shown clearly over the course of it that it is definitely not.

[aimlessgun]

No that's a good point. The only thing that would really make them think it's a 'suicide mission' is that no ship has ever returned through the O-4 relay. But having the IFF, which nobody ever had before, seems like it would increase their optimism.

[Skilled Seeker]

Playing ME: Galaxy or just watching a playthough on youtube gives you a good insight on the character of Jacob.

Modifié par Skilled Seeker, 29 avril 2011 - 10:10 .

[Valikdu]

<sarcasm>
Shepard is a SPACE MAHREEN and sometimes rides around in a METAL BAWX. How much more grim do you want it?
</sarcasm>

[CulturalGeekGirl]

walk0nwalls wrote...

Then I'll simply concede and accept that I'm fishing about for something that ain't there. That said, I'd like a game of that ilk and the closest that Bioware's come is their most recent venture, DA2. My favorite dialogue string from that entire game is Female neutralHawke who actually expresses the most complex and interesting perspective of the three alternating perspectives. 

Hers is one that values stability, freedom, and happiness above all things all under the guise of gross inappropriateness so when (spoiler alert) things go to **** around the end of DA2, she expresses her sorrow in the face of near certain annihilation with a continued hope that her band of friends will still be able to grab a drink at the end of all events. 

More than Good Hawke - the saint - and Bad Hawke - The Marine- Neutral laughs Hawke loses everything at the end of DA2 simply because Good & Evil still have a universe in which to inhabit. Neutral Laughs Hawke, everything that she  values has been destroyed and there really is no getting it back, more so than the others because Good Hawke will still be able to be a saint, Bad Hawke will still be able to overcompensate, but Laughs Hawke simply has to keep on smiling and believing in the quality of people's lives even as that very quality of life is leaching out of the universe as quickly as it can. 

Of any Bioware RPG I've played, I found that to be the most tragic and compelling story. 

I don't mind optimism and bravery, I don't. I'd just like a space for the neutral option. While it may be true that all the companions are as you say they are, I do wish there were someone inhabiting that neutral space of neither being angry with their situation nor facing oblivion bravely. I'd like a wider diversity of expressed philosophical viewpoints and individuals who are resolutely motivated by convictions not born of their cultural upbringings. 

I'd like - as it were - more definition and nuances in how we conceive of bravery and the manifold ways in which we can approach courage. And I'd like people to speak honestly of their minds, in any fiction really. 

And while we're at it, I'd like a pony too.

Yeah, it's definitely a matter of taste. I'm about to go on a rant: it is for humorous effect, not to demean your enjoyment of a ancient and storied narrative aesthetic.

I'm old and tired of tragedy. Also, I was an anime/manga/JRPG fan for about a decade, so that kind of killed me. When almost every single bloody thing you read, watch, or play ends in everyone (or at least the main character) dealing with dying or being sad orlosing everything (but the survivors just gotta gambaru on with their lives), you start to get tired of it. Or rather, I got tired of it. A lot of people are still eating it up with a spoon, decades later, god bless 'em. (I apologize for the structure of that paragraph... consider it a metaphor for my twisted and embittered psyche.)

Now, this trend in Japanese culture is due to the concept of "aware" or "transience and mutability." It is one of the central aesthetic principles of Japanese culture, the concept that all beauty fades, all heroes die, and all happiness is temporary. It is also SO BORING after a while. When every book, short story, and hell, half of the fairy tales you read end with everything falling apart, you start wanting something to go right... just once.

Basically, I'm recommending you read some manga and play some JRPGs. Don't play FFIX though, that's the one that doesn't end with everyone losing everything and being sad forever. But FFVII, FFVIII, and FFX all have some niiiiiice tragedy in there (don't play X2, it craps all over that). Or does it ruin it if you know they're screwed going in? Seriously though, I can hook you up with some gorram tragedies, if you want. I am not joking.

If you want people delivering lengthy monologues about how they're feeling before they go off to face their imminent demise, I have some fantasy fiction for you. Also, a lot of anime. So much of it. Some Science Fiction too, if I go digging. It might take me a while to figure out which series are the best for this, though.

I like a happy ending, sure, but I'm also fond of the "true neutral" ending. That's when you end the story with some things looking up, some things looking down, and some things still in a state of flux. That's some future fuel right there. Infuriating but intriguing. What you're talking about, with the dealing with mortality and struggling to move foreword as things fall apart around you, I'd call that the "medium dark" ending, rather than the neutral one. In a neutral ending, the future is impossible to see. In a medium dark one, it's probably bad, but you can hope. You're allowed.

But take heart... that aesthetic you want is the central aesthetic tenet of an entire culture. Japanese lit, my friend. That's what you want to look into. Also, some of the Russian classics. Chekov and Dostoyevsky, in particular. If you haven't read Crime and Punishment yet, you should. It's all about things falling apart while the main character openly speaks of his own disappointment with himself and the universe. Good stuff.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 29 avril 2011 - 11:19 .

[aimlessgun]

Are we really even talking about endings here though? I was under the impression the OP was looking for more grim introspection prior to the ending, but if he's like most of the playerbase, the actual end of ME2 is going to be sunshine and rainbows (wrt the ME2 story, Reapers still inc. of course).

Modifié par aimlessgun, 29 avril 2011 - 11:23 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

I'm not talking about the endings exclusively... but how the time before the endings relates to them. He did bring up that in DAII everything has gone to hell, but I don't know... exactly how that goes, because I haven't had time for DAII yet (don't worry, I long ago gave up the hope being on any Bioware forum and being unspoiled for any Bioware game.)

A lot of the books and games I'm talking about have a feeling of "let's introspect about our uncertain future/impending doom" for either the entire series, or at least the last third of the book. I can't think of many series that are all about obsessiing over your doom, but then have a happy ending.

[aimlessgun]

So would the rarer "angsty brooding capped by complete, no-one-left-behind victory" be ok, where "angsty brooding followed by bad things happening" wouldn't be?

Actually now that I think about it, "angst followed by happy ending anyways" is pretty common in western fantasy, so that would annoy a lot of other people

Modifié par aimlessgun, 30 avril 2011 - 02:58 .

[Pwener2313]

The OP is high. Everyone talks about the possibility of death, all the time.