152 réponses à ce sujet

[Destroy Raiden_]

Yeah OP shep’s a brick through out ME – ME2 and everyone else are bricks when faced with their own death 98% of ME2 game.

Shep’s death was underplayed and besides a few dialogues from Baily, the Csec guard who stops you, Tali, Miranda, and Liara that’s it. Shep has no care. I guess BW did that for one of two potential reasons 1 it was a blatant plot evolving issue kill shep = fresh start = no further character development is required. Or 2 atheist don’t believe in god or life after death so we shouldn’t have them answer any questions of the subject cuz that’d be imposing on them. I think #1 was more likely they needed a fresh start and got one.

It was unbelievable that they would think no one would want to know how they were brought back, what was put into them, and what were the long term ramifications of what had occurred the whole was there a white light when you died question aside. I would’ve liked my crew especially Garrus, Tali, and Chakwas to ask this question want to know how shep died sense they were on the pods at the time, ask him if he went into another realm, or was there light like they all say there is, the 5 wheel choice option would surface to pick responses from detailed to I don’t want to talk about this.

Shep should be concerned and scared about what these unknown implants and tech will do to him. I mean as the saying goes, “ What doesn’t kill you makes you stronger” except shep died so what does that do?

Then I agree the whole crew doesn’t care much beyond if you don’t do our loyalty missions people are seriously going to die. And of course the final mission if we don’t do it now we might be able to later. No one is very worried throughout ME2 like they were in ME. Garrus displayed multiple occasions of doubt over weather or not they’d complete their mission. I hope in 3 this occurs again with my crew caring a lot more for their safty, their home’s safty, sheps safty and sanity, and Earth’s safty.

[Pwener2313]

Yeah, beacuse we need little girls crying about dying when faced with the most evil thing in the galaxy. You people make me sick.

[Destroy Raiden_]

thurmanator692 wrote...

Not dark? did you see that color pallet?

Just because it's color dark doesn't make it content dark. We want content, plot, subject matter darkness not just the colors being dark.

[didymos1120]

thurmanator692 wrote...

walk0nwalls wrote...

Thane - dude's gonna die in 3 months. Why the hell not?

How 'bout to raise his freakin son?

That ship sailed on the seas of Kahje long ago.  Kolyat was no child.

[walk0nwalls]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Yeah, it's definitely a matter of taste. I'm about to go on a rant: it is for humorous effect, not to demean your enjoyment of a ancient and storied narrative aesthetic.

I'm old and tired of tragedy. Also, I was an anime/manga/JRPG fan for about a decade, so that kind of killed me. When almost every single bloody thing you read, watch, or play ends in everyone (or at least the main character) dealing with dying or being sad orlosing everything (but the survivors just gotta gambaru on with their lives), you start to get tired of it. Or rather, I got tired of it. A lot of people are still eating it up with a spoon, decades later, god bless 'em. (I apologize for the structure of that paragraph... consider it a metaphor for my twisted and embittered psyche.)

Now, this trend in Japanese culture is due to the concept of "aware" or "transience and mutability." It is one of the central aesthetic principles of Japanese culture, the concept that all beauty fades, all heroes die, and all happiness is temporary. It is also SO BORING after a while. When every book, short story, and hell, half of the fairy tales you read end with everything falling apart, you start wanting something to go right... just once.

Basically, I'm recommending you read some manga and play some JRPGs. Don't play FFIX though, that's the one that doesn't end with everyone losing everything and being sad forever. But FFVII, FFVIII, and FFX all have some niiiiiice tragedy in there (don't play X2, it craps all over that). Or does it ruin it if you know they're screwed going in? Seriously though, I can hook you up with some gorram tragedies, if you want. I am not joking.

If you want people delivering lengthy monologues about how they're feeling before they go off to face their imminent demise, I have some fantasy fiction for you. Also, a lot of anime. So much of it. Some Science Fiction too, if I go digging. It might take me a while to figure out which series are the best for this, though.

I like a happy ending, sure, but I'm also fond of the "true neutral" ending. That's when you end the story with some things looking up, some things looking down, and some things still in a state of flux. That's some future fuel right there. Infuriating but intriguing. What you're talking about, with the dealing with mortality and struggling to move foreword as things fall apart around you, I'd call that the "medium dark" ending, rather than the neutral one. In a neutral ending, the future is impossible to see. In a medium dark one, it's probably bad, but you can hope. You're allowed.

But take heart... that aesthetic you want is the central aesthetic tenet of an entire culture. Japanese lit, my friend. That's what you want to look into. Also, some of the Russian classics. Chekov and Dostoyevsky, in particular. If you haven't read Crime and Punishment yet, you should. It's all about things falling apart while the main character openly speaks of his own disappointment with himself and the universe. Good stuff.

Hah, absolutely no need. I've already seen Paranoia Agent and that anime had the absolute best and resolutely most unique perspective on transience and unhappy circumstance that I will ever need. You've also called my bluff re my tastes for national literature as I am and will be until I die, a proponent of Russian Literature. Gogol 4eva!

I'd also like to establish that at this moment, my ideal companions would be a conglomeration of Raskalnikov from Crime and Punishment, the title character of Camus' 'The Stranger', someone deeply religious, an atheist, and whichever divergent perspective on life floats your boat. 

Modifié par walk0nwalls, 30 avril 2011 - 04:04 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Ok, have you seen every other thing Satoshi Kon ever made (Edit: he is the director and creator of Paranoia Agent)? Because you need to. That guy is a genius... and though more than a few of his movies end somewhere in the happy range of neutral, they are some great, dark intense stuff.

Seriously see Perfect Blue, Millenium Actress, Tokyo Godfathers and Paprika. Ugh now I am sad that he died all over again.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 30 avril 2011 - 04:06 .

[walk0nwalls]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Ok, have you seen every other thing Satoshi Kon ever made? Because you need to. That guy is a genius... and though more than a few of his movies end somewhere in the happy range of neutral, they are some great, dark intense stuff.

Seriously see Perfect Blue, Millenium Actress, Tokyo Godfathers and Paprika. Ugh now I am sad that he died all over again.

I'm actually generally off anime but Satoshi Kon transcends the typifying empty-headedness of the medium. It's an absolute shame he died. The only one of his work I haven't seen is Perfect Blue but that'll be remedied soon. 

[CulturalGeekGirl]

walk0nwalls wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Ok, have you seen every other thing Satoshi Kon ever made? Because you need to. That guy is a genius... and though more than a few of his movies end somewhere in the happy range of neutral, they are some great, dark intense stuff.

Seriously see Perfect Blue, Millenium Actress, Tokyo Godfathers and Paprika. Ugh now I am sad that he died all over again.

I'm actually generally off anime but Satoshi Kon transcends the typifying empty-headedness of the medium. It's an absolute shame he died. The only one of his work I haven't seen is Perfect Blue but that'll be remedied soon. 

Ah good. It's his earliest thing so it's less sophisticated, but it's nicely dark and head trippy. Also there's an interview with him about it: "do you think you might have made this too confusing for Japanese audiences?" "No. If anything, I should have made it MORE confusing." God I loved that man.

Glad you've seen Millenium Actress. That is one of my favorite movies of all time, and the end makes me cry more consistently than any media ever.

[didymos1120]

thurmanator692 wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

thurmanator692 wrote...

walk0nwalls wrote...

Thane - dude's gonna die in 3 months. Why the hell not?

How 'bout to raise his freakin son?

That ship sailed on the seas of Kahje long ago.  Kolyat was no child.

Sorry, i've got a reeeeeeaaaallly biased opinion when it comes to this

OK, but the fact is, Kolyat already grew up.  There's no raising to be done at this point.

[Nashiktal]

walk0nwalls wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Ok, have you seen every other thing Satoshi Kon ever made? Because you need to. That guy is a genius... and though more than a few of his movies end somewhere in the happy range of neutral, they are some great, dark intense stuff.

Seriously see Perfect Blue, Millenium Actress, Tokyo Godfathers and Paprika. Ugh now I am sad that he died all over again.

I'm actually generally off anime but Satoshi Kon transcends the typifying empty-headedness of the medium. It's an absolute shame he died. The only one of his work I haven't seen is Perfect Blue but that'll be remedied soon. 

Empty-headedness? I would argue it is no more so than any other medium.

*Grumbles as he goes back to watch Legend of the Galactic Heroes*

Modifié par Nashiktal, 30 avril 2011 - 04:21 .

[walk0nwalls]

Nashiktal wrote...

walk0nwalls wrote...


I'm actually generally off anime but Satoshi Kon transcends the typifying empty-headedness of the medium. It's an absolute shame he died. The only one of his work I haven't seen is Perfect Blue but that'll be remedied soon. 

Empty-headedness? I would argue it is no more so than any other medium.

*Grumbles as he goes back to watch Legend of the Galactic Heroes*

You know Kon actually wasn't particularly popular in Japan on account of his spotlight on the manifold issues surrounding Japanese culture. The otaku base in Japan is typically significantly more conservative than their foreign counterparts. While true that anime is no more or no less vacuous than any other medium, I'm harboring something of a minor grudge for the reasons why Kon was not particularly an ever-welcome voice in Japan. 

But that's just me. 

Edit: Hah! I just remembered Kon left a pretty significant dig at the otaku population in Paranoia agent. The Otaku's anime figuirines come to life and tell the detective that, "We control him, he doesn't notice anything we don't want him to." 

Zing. 

Modifié par walk0nwalls, 30 avril 2011 - 04:27 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Nashiktal wrote...

walk0nwalls wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Ok, have you seen every other thing Satoshi Kon ever made? Because you need to. That guy is a genius... and though more than a few of his movies end somewhere in the happy range of neutral, they are some great, dark intense stuff.

Seriously see Perfect Blue, Millenium Actress, Tokyo Godfathers and Paprika. Ugh now I am sad that he died all over again.

I'm actually generally off anime but Satoshi Kon transcends the typifying empty-headedness of the medium. It's an absolute shame he died. The only one of his work I haven't seen is Perfect Blue but that'll be remedied soon. 

Empty-headedness? I would argue it is no more so than any other medium.

*Grumbles as he goes back to watch Legend of the Galactic Heroes*

Look, we all know that LoGH is big, it's heavy, it's wood. It is very clear that LoGH is better than bad, it's good.

Sorry... sorry.  Flashbacks. But yes, a lot of anime is spectacular. Cowboy Bebop is the obivous example, but also Kino's Travels (do you want some great literate social commentary? Watch that goddam anime), Serial Experiments Lain, I coudl go on all day.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

walk0nwalls wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

walk0nwalls wrote...


I'm actually generally off anime but Satoshi Kon transcends the typifying empty-headedness of the medium. It's an absolute shame he died. The only one of his work I haven't seen is Perfect Blue but that'll be remedied soon. 

Empty-headedness? I would argue it is no more so than any other medium.

*Grumbles as he goes back to watch Legend of the Galactic Heroes*

You know Kon actually wasn't particularly popular in Japan on account of his spotlight on the manifold issues surrounding Japanese culture. The otaku base in Japan is typically significantly more conservative than their foreign counterparts. While true that anime is no more or no less vacuous than any other medium, I'm harboring something of a minor grudge for the reasons why Kon was not particularly an ever-welcome voice in Japan. 

But that's just me. 

No offense, but that's like saying "I'm never going to watch any Stand-up comedy because Lenny Bruce was persecuted." Yes that was terribly unfair to Lenny Bruce, but let's not make other artists suffer because of it!

[walk0nwalls]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

No offense, but that's like saying "I'm never going to watch any Stand-up comedy because Lenny Bruce was persecuted." Yes that was terribly unfair to Lenny Bruce, but let's not make other artists suffer because of it!

I got tastes, that's all it is. And anime - as with all mediums - typically is concerned with entertainment first and meaning second so all that means is that I've got a smaller spate of options to choose from. I haven't written off the entire medium, that would be silly. I'm just looking for a very specific sort of content. I think that's fair. 

[Nashiktal]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

walk0nwalls wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Ok, have you seen every other thing Satoshi Kon ever made? Because you need to. That guy is a genius... and though more than a few of his movies end somewhere in the happy range of neutral, they are some great, dark intense stuff.

Seriously see Perfect Blue, Millenium Actress, Tokyo Godfathers and Paprika. Ugh now I am sad that he died all over again.

I'm actually generally off anime but Satoshi Kon transcends the typifying empty-headedness of the medium. It's an absolute shame he died. The only one of his work I haven't seen is Perfect Blue but that'll be remedied soon. 

Empty-headedness? I would argue it is no more so than any other medium.

*Grumbles as he goes back to watch Legend of the Galactic Heroes*

Look, we all know that LoGH is big, it's heavy, it's wood. It is very clear that LoGH is better than bad, it's good.

Sorry... sorry.  Flashbacks. But yes, a lot of anime is spectacular. Cowboy Bebop is the obivous example, but also Kino's Travels (do you want some great literate social commentary? Watch that goddam anime), Serial Experiments Lain, I coudl go on all day.

Kino's travels was one of those surprises that have left their mark on me. I think my favorite episode was the one involving the railroad workers.

Also Tokyo godfathers. My favorite christmas movie.

[Fiery Phoenix]

walk0nwalls wrote...
*snip*

While an interesting take, I believe you should try romancing Thane. Unromanced Thane and romanced Thane are two very different persons; the latter happens to be a far interesting character in the emotional side of things. He literally cries because of his impending death during the romance scene, aside from the bits mentioned during the preceding romance-specific conversations with Shepard.

Still, I actually quite agree with you for the most part, as this is one of my issues with ME2. It's not too much an issue, but it could have used some more attention me thinks.

Modifié par Fiery Phoenix, 30 avril 2011 - 04:38 .

[Nashiktal]

Indeed it seems that Bioware loves giving all the good bits of character development to the players who romance their squadmates. Unfortunate for those who do not wish to do the romancing part, but still a nice treat.

[flem1]

walk0nwalls wrote...

Ever did it occur to you that the characters in Mass Effect 2 approached near-certain annihilation with an inssuficient degree of gravity?

That's Bioware.

There's always a degree of lightness to their stuff because, well, that's what they do well.

Remember how much reflective discussion you had in KOTOR about being somebody totally different?  Oh right:  none.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

walk0nwalls wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

No offense, but that's like saying "I'm never going to watch any Stand-up comedy because Lenny Bruce was persecuted." Yes that was terribly unfair to Lenny Bruce, but let's not make other artists suffer because of it!

I got tastes, that's all it is. And anime - as with all mediums - typically is concerned with entertainment first and meaning second so all that means is that I've got a smaller spate of options to choose from. I haven't written off the entire medium, that would be silly. I'm just looking for a very specific sort of content. I think that's fair. 

Sure, no, I feel you.

And seriously, look up Kino no Tabi (Kino's Journey in the US, because the translators apparently don't get references.) It's very Gulliver's travel's-like, in that it's satire about humanity's failings, told through stories of a traveler to different lands. (Don't watch it dubbed. Dub is terrible.) 

I'd also recommend Princess Tutu. Yes I know that sounds like the WORST thing, but it's actually this dark story about myth, and stories, and the way your perceptions can warp your future... that is also simultaneously a story about ballerinas. Actually, since the Black Swan came out that seems like less of an inherent disconnect. I never got a chance to finish this series myself... I should do that at some point.

If you like Dragon Age-style stories of introspection and human failings, those are the best anime I can think of for that, other than Paranoia Agent.

[Dean_the_Young]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

walk0nwalls wrote...

Then I'll simply concede and accept that I'm fishing about for something that ain't there. That said, I'd like a game of that ilk and the closest that Bioware's come is their most recent venture, DA2. My favorite dialogue string from that entire game is Female neutralHawke who actually expresses the most complex and interesting perspective of the three alternating perspectives. 

Hers is one that values stability, freedom, and happiness above all things all under the guise of gross inappropriateness so when (spoiler alert) things go to **** around the end of DA2, she expresses her sorrow in the face of near certain annihilation with a continued hope that her band of friends will still be able to grab a drink at the end of all events. 

More than Good Hawke - the saint - and Bad Hawke - The Marine- Neutral laughs Hawke loses everything at the end of DA2 simply because Good & Evil still have a universe in which to inhabit. Neutral Laughs Hawke, everything that she  values has been destroyed and there really is no getting it back, more so than the others because Good Hawke will still be able to be a saint, Bad Hawke will still be able to overcompensate, but Laughs Hawke simply has to keep on smiling and believing in the quality of people's lives even as that very quality of life is leaching out of the universe as quickly as it can. 

Of any Bioware RPG I've played, I found that to be the most tragic and compelling story. 

I don't mind optimism and bravery, I don't. I'd just like a space for the neutral option. While it may be true that all the companions are as you say they are, I do wish there were someone inhabiting that neutral space of neither being angry with their situation nor facing oblivion bravely. I'd like a wider diversity of expressed philosophical viewpoints and individuals who are resolutely motivated by convictions not born of their cultural upbringings. 

I'd like - as it were - more definition and nuances in how we conceive of bravery and the manifold ways in which we can approach courage. And I'd like people to speak honestly of their minds, in any fiction really. 

And while we're at it, I'd like a pony too.

Yeah, it's definitely a matter of taste. I'm about to go on a rant: it is for humorous effect, not to demean your enjoyment of a ancient and storied narrative aesthetic.

I'm old and tired of tragedy. Also, I was an anime/manga/JRPG fan for about a decade, so that kind of killed me. When almost every single bloody thing you read, watch, or play ends in everyone (or at least the main character) dealing with dying or being sad orlosing everything (but the survivors just gotta gambaru on with their lives), you start to get tired of it. Or rather, I got tired of it. A lot of people are still eating it up with a spoon, decades later, god bless 'em. (I apologize for the structure of that paragraph... consider it a metaphor for my twisted and embittered psyche.)

Now, this trend in Japanese culture is due to the concept of "aware" or "transience and mutability." It is one of the central aesthetic principles of Japanese culture, the concept that all beauty fades, all heroes die, and all happiness is temporary. It is also SO BORING after a while. When every book, short story, and hell, half of the fairy tales you read end with everything falling apart, you start wanting something to go right... just once.

Basically, I'm recommending you read some manga and play some JRPGs. Don't play FFIX though, that's the one that doesn't end with everyone losing everything and being sad forever. But FFVII, FFVIII, and FFX all have some niiiiiice tragedy in there (don't play X2, it craps all over that). Or does it ruin it if you know they're screwed going in? Seriously though, I can hook you up with some gorram tragedies, if you want. I am not joking.

If you want people delivering lengthy monologues about how they're feeling before they go off to face their imminent demise, I have some fantasy fiction for you. Also, a lot of anime. So much of it. Some Science Fiction too, if I go digging. It might take me a while to figure out which series are the best for this, though.

I like a happy ending, sure, but I'm also fond of the "true neutral" ending. That's when you end the story with some things looking up, some things looking down, and some things still in a state of flux. That's some future fuel right there. Infuriating but intriguing. What you're talking about, with the dealing with mortality and struggling to move foreword as things fall apart around you, I'd call that the "medium dark" ending, rather than the neutral one. In a neutral ending, the future is impossible to see. In a medium dark one, it's probably bad, but you can hope. You're allowed.

But take heart... that aesthetic you want is the central aesthetic tenet of an entire culture. Japanese lit, my friend. That's what you want to look into. Also, some of the Russian classics. Chekov and Dostoyevsky, in particular. If you haven't read Crime and Punishment yet, you should. It's all about things falling apart while the main character openly speaks of his own disappointment with himself and the universe. Good stuff.

Don't take it the wrong way, but I love it when you post like this.

Complete with ,

You should let your rants down more often.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Nashiktal wrote...

Indeed it seems that Bioware loves giving all the good bits of character development to the players who romance their squadmates. Unfortunate for those who do not wish to do the romancing part, but still a nice treat.

Yes, Nash. Unfortunately, ME2 requires that you romance your squadmates to really see that other side of them. Can't say I liked that; hopefully they fix it in ME3 and make them more open regardless of romance.

Modifié par Fiery Phoenix, 30 avril 2011 - 04:42 .

[walk0nwalls]

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

Indeed it seems that Bioware loves giving all the good bits of character development to the players who romance their squadmates. Unfortunate for those who do not wish to do the romancing part, but still a nice treat.

Yes, Nash. Unfortunately, ME2 requires that you romance your squadmates to really see that other side of them. Can't say I liked that; hopefully they fix it in ME3 and make them more open regardless of romance.

Yeah, that would be good. It appears I need to get around to f---ing, I mean 'romancing' Thane. 

[Nashiktal]

Jack is a good example of this. If you don't romance her, she never opens up. A shame considering how much it reveals about her.