152 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

And Jacob. You have to romance him to get him to ask Shepard how she's doing about the whole "two years dead" thing.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

I will agree that Shepard should have had more to say about the whole "I was dead for two years!" thing. That bothered me. I wanted to grab Kaidan and shake him "I was dead. I DIED FOR YOU ALL. Now crazy people own my organs! Can you cut me just a little slack, here?" 

[AdmiralCheez]

"Crazy people own my organs!"

Heehee. I am going to use that somewhere now.

[jellobell]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I will agree that Shepard should have had more to say about the whole "I was dead for two years!" thing. That bothered me. I wanted to grab Kaidan and shake him "I was dead. I DIED FOR YOU ALL. Now crazy people own my organs! Can you cut me just a little slack, here?" 

Maybe she's just in a protracted state of shock. It's not like she's got the has the time to really process what was done to her. 

However, BW really need to give some insight into Shepard's state of mind in ME3. She's the only thing standing between every intelligent species in the galaxy and total annihilation by the reapers. That's a lot of pressure. The conversation with Liara at the end of LotSB was a good starting point. We need more of that.

[Inquisitor Recon]

My Shepard was pissed when he got killed, he didn't kick enough ass. When Cerberus brought him back he should have been an option to say "Took you long enough, just tell me where they are!"

Maybe Shepard got stuck hanging out with Kaidan in the afterlife. However this would be some sort of hell because Kaidan would keep going on about "You know I was just saying you should get to Ashley's group to sound all heroic, I didn't mean it you jerk."

So yeah, he really wanted to get away from the complaining to kill some space bugs.

[Manic Sheep]

Well yeah, but do you really want the game to be so depressing and characters to mop and have emotional issue all the time? and most of them deal with life threatening situations all the time. They are not civilians. 
Tho yes Shepards death wasn't done too well. You get 2 lines around the begining where you sound shocked. One is with jacob if you press him for info before fighting the mechs, the other is in the ride over to meet TIM. I’m going to go with Shepard was bottling it to deal and just focued on work.
Also grunt is a Krogan....with raging hormones. He lives to fight.

Modifié par Manic Sheep, 30 avril 2011 - 06:13 .

[Clonedzero]

they're all highly trained to deal with death. no ones going to wuss out or anything lol.
what a ridiculous topic. sure if tthey were normal people they might get all angsty and whiney about it.

[walk0nwalls]

I really don't understand why it is when I say 'introspection' everyone else hears 'emo+whiney'

That's not the only available option people, c'mon.

[walk0nwalls]

Manic Sheep wrote...

Well yeah, but do you really want the game to be so depressing and characters to mop and have emotional issue all the time? and most of them deal with life threatening situations all the time. They are not civilians. 
Tho yes Shepards death wasn't done too well. You get 2 lines around the begining where you sound shocked. One is with jacob if you press him for info before fighting the mechs, the other is in the ride over to meet TIM. I’m going to go with Shepard was bottling it to deal and just focued on work.
Also grunt is a Krogan....with raging hormones. He lives to fight.

Life threatening =/= certain death. They're completely different animals. One you can plow through on bravado. The other one you cannot. 

[Clonedzero]

walk0nwalls wrote...

I really don't understand why it is when I say 'introspection' everyone else hears 'emo+whiney'

That's not the only available option people, c'mon.

it was a blanket statement. im sure they interalize it. and as shepard he shouldnt allow people to talk about dying on his ship. it'd DESTROY moral.

i doubt the suicide mission was the first time any of them had been in dire circumstances. well except grunt, but grunt likes it so yeah he doesnt count.

these are professionals, the best of the best.

[walk0nwalls]

Clonedzero wrote...

they're all highly trained to deal with death. no ones going to wuss out or anything lol.
what a ridiculous topic. sure if tthey were normal people they might get all angsty and whiney about it.

Where exactly did this idea come from that soldiers are trained to deal with death? Soldiers are trained to inflict death, they are typically not expected - or even encouraged - to think of themselves as vulnerable beings. 

This is why the corpse diggers in the Army are such a maligned battallion of soldiers - their existence is a constant reminder of the continuing mortality of being a soldier, a reality that most soldiers willfully try to avoid as much as possible. Once thrust into a suicide mission standpoint though, Shepherd + co are forcibly placed in the same position as the corpse carriers in Iraq, faced constantly with the evidence of their own impending demise. 

Civilians might yet be better-equipped to deal with death than soldiers. It's only those who stare constantly into the face of death who are best-equipped to face it. Soldiers do not do that. Soldiers inflict death then leave as their opponents bleed out on the floor. Never do they want to aknowledge that it could happen to them. A suicide mission such as Mass Effect 2's could've been a fallow opportunity to exploit and blow apart this ridiculous and obviously false perception inherent to being a soldier: the perception of immortality. 

I'm well aware that Mass Effect tends to attract its own fair share of the hoo-rah Marines forever crowd, but what exactly do you lot have to say in the face of the corpse diggers in Iraq with their blood-stained cammies and jobs of ever gazing upon the shredded corpses of the dead? Soldiers are not those best-trained to deal with death. Those are the jobs of priests, philosophers, civilians as you so derisively call them. Meaning to life is not achieved through action, but rather through introspection. And no amount of bullets fired will be able to change that. 

[Clonedzero]

its a video game. it wasnt designed to be morbidly depressing. so yeah.

[Manic Sheep]

walk0nwalls wrote...

Manic Sheep wrote...

Well yeah, but do you really want the game to be so depressing and characters to mop and have emotional issue all the time? and most of them deal with life threatening situations all the time. They are not civilians.
Tho yes Shepards death wasn't done too well. You get 2 lines around the beginning where you sound shocked. One is with jacob if you press him for info before fighting the mechs, the other is in the ride over to meet TIM. I’m going to go with Shepard was bottling it to deal and just focused on work.
Also grunt is a Krogan....with raging hormones. He lives to fight.

Life threatening =/= certain death. They're completely different animals. One you can plow through on bravado. The other one you cannot.

It wasn't certain death. It was highly likely to end in death. Many of the guys you had (with some exceptions like Tali) were the kind of people who had done things that would have been labelled as “impossible” or “suicidal” before. It wouldn’t be a small obviously but I don’t expect them to be breaking down about it. Especially not to you. Perhaps they do break down when they are on their own and deal with it in their own private way.

Modifié par Manic Sheep, 30 avril 2011 - 06:40 .

[walk0nwalls]

Clonedzero wrote...

its a video game. it wasnt designed to be morbidly depressing. so yeah.

I prefer my fiction to move me outside my comfort zones. Bioshock did a great job of presenting complex ideas to the character and became practically immortal because of it. More people should do this. 

[CulturalGeekGirl]

walk0nwalls wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...

its a video game. it wasnt designed to be morbidly depressing. so yeah.

I prefer my fiction to move me outside my comfort zones. Bioshock did a great job of presenting complex ideas to the character and became practically immortal because of it. More people should do this. 

There's more than one way to be moved outside your comfort zone. And for some people misery and agony are their comfort zone.

My favorite kind of art that shakes me is something I can't get my head around. Something too fast, to lively, too intense for me to process. Something that makes me feel like I'm having all the thoughts, and yet that I am intensely stupid at the same time.

If On a Winters Night A Traveler does this. The Manuscript Found in Saragossa does this. Hitchhiker's Guide did it when I was younger.

But this kind of storytelling is not, perhaps, the best for games. So far no game has ever managed to take me to that place of mania and madness and absurdity and life. Portal comes close, comes oh-so close. But not every game can be Portal. Not every game can be Calvino. And not every game can be Dostoyevsky.

[KainrycKarr]

I get what you're saying; I really do. But honestly, a lot of anime is precisely WHY I just don't want to see that "introspective" stuff as much anymore.

I like the fact that Shepard just shrugs it off. He's an abnormal person. He handles stuff in an abnormal way because he is the Intergalactic Space Jesus and and nothing will stop him.

Sometimes I LIKE to see a character look at these ridiculously bad odds in combat situations and just say "yeah okay, sucks w.e., let's just get in there and make it work."

Of course, other people's Shepard's are different and a little less cold about things like death, but it works for me so I've no complaints.

[Seboist]

It's impossible for the game to be grim when Shep and co have Steven Seagal invulnerability and survive countless missions without a scratch. The fact that they can survive the SM with no fatalities makes the Collectors and Reapers into a joke.

[Manic Sheep]

KainrycKarr wrote...

I get what you're saying; I really do. But honestly, a lot of anime is precisely WHY I just don't want to see that "introspective" stuff as much anymore.

I like the fact that Shepard just shrugs it off. He's an abnormal person. He handles stuff in an abnormal way because he is the Intergalactic Space Jesus and and nothing will stop him.

Sometimes I LIKE to see a character look at these ridiculously bad odds in combat situations and just say "yeah okay, sucks w.e., let's just get in there and make it work."

Of course, other people's Shepard's are different and a little less cold about things like death, but it works for me so I've no complaints.

I think the PC introspective stuff is best left to the player for the most part in an RPG anyway. More happens in the story than what’s you see on screen. They cannot possibly write options that will fit for everyone’s Shepards. Imagine how your sheaprds react, feel and how it affects their decisions on your own. You don't need a dialouge option to state it.

Modifié par Manic Sheep, 30 avril 2011 - 08:06 .

[walk0nwalls]

KainrycKarr wrote...

I get what you're saying; I really do. But honestly, a lot of anime is precisely WHY I just don't want to see that "introspective" stuff as much anymore.

I like the fact that Shepard just shrugs it off. He's an abnormal person. He handles stuff in an abnormal way because he is the Intergalactic Space Jesus and and nothing will stop him.

Sometimes I LIKE to see a character look at these ridiculously bad odds in combat situations and just say "yeah okay, sucks w.e., let's just get in there and make it work."

Of course, other people's Shepard's are different and a little less cold about things like death, but it works for me so I've no complaints.

Typically where most anime fails is in the fact that their characters have nothing interesting to opine. They observe their lostness and state "I am lost" then look wistfully off into the sunset. When there is nothing interesting to be said, yes the much preferred course of action is taking action. That said, if you've got characters who have more than their own tortured existences in their mind, such a period of meditation is not necessarily a bad thing. It's just that as you have all mentioned, anime protagonists are typically nearly as shallow as Shepherd, and when faced with such a situation it'd be much preferable that the individual shut up and keep shooting. 

But those who have done this best are works that have had something different to say about what constitutes a life well-lived. When I consider all your invocations of the aimless Japanese protagonist, thoughts turn to Shinji and his endless whinging. Given that he had very little to complain about and absolutely nothing profound at all to say, it is as you all say: he should've shut up. But what I'm saying that had it been done right, had it been done correctly, I suspect we would've all been leaps and bounds closer to our companions than we even are today. While the opportunity does carry some risk, I still do feel the reward would've been well worth the effort, especially considering the overarching quality of Bioware's writers. 

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Ok, here's what I've been wanting to ask... given the character descriptions and things brought up earlier, which of the Normandy's crew do you think should introspect out loud, and what should they talk about? I can come up with one or two ideas, but they all seem rather unlikely and out-of-character.

I can come up with conversations with Kaidan, Ash, or Liara. But not the ME2 dudes.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 30 avril 2011 - 10:00 .

[walk0nwalls]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Ok, here's what I've been wanting to ask... given the character descriptions and things brought up earlier, which of the Normandy's crew do you think should introspect out loud, and what should they talk about? I can come up with one or two ideas, but they all seem rather unlikely and out-of-character.

I can come up with conversations with Kaidan, Ash, or Liara. But not the ME2 dudes.

Jacob is nearly impossible to figure out on account of nearly nothing being given regarding his character. 

Mordin already did this in-game and I thought it was awesome. 

Thane, to a certain extent did this in-game. I thought too, also appropriate. 

Garrus I feel should've spoken more about what that vengeance meant to him and what it was like to dedicate his life entirely to being a vigilante and then finally a roving murderer, killing for sport. There was a movement in his story there that pointed to a dark and consuming anger that was really never explored beyond Sedonis. 

Tali  - being the youngest and ostensibly most naiive - would talk about her affection for Shepherd and trying to take on leadership and failing. Hers would easily be the most confused conversations on account of her age and lack of life experience. They'd probably be the most difficult conversations as well. 

Jack apparently opens up should you romance her but she's already seemingly resigned to a life hurtling towards oblivion, so no talking would be necessary. 

Kasumi I felt sort of did explain why she would be willing to die through her own personal quest. I've got a soft spot for duplicitous jokers so I understood her reasons for being willing or even wanting to die. 

Zaeed - if ever there were one arrogant space marine, this'd be your guy. 

Miranda - I think what would bother Miranda the most would not be so much death as it would be control. Her chief conflict would be between her dedication to Cerberus and her professionalism and the looming realization that there's a chance she'll be manipulated into her own death outside of her means. Miranda's father exercised control well beyond his bounds so it's not implausible that Miranda would be the most in denial about the circumstances surrounding the supposed suicide Mission. 

Samara is ageless and ethereal and has both completed her mission and dedicated her life to serving the galaxy. She laid out that much in-game and that's more than sufficient. 

So really you've got three characters who need to do a better job of explaining their willingness to plunge into a suicide mission: 

Tali
Miranda
Jacob

And one character who needs to explain if he has any regrets regarding how he has lived his life

Garrus. 

Zaeed's situation should be one of beginning with stark bravado but somewhat coming apart in private conversations with him. Should he have a change to talk with the rest of the crew regarding the suicide mission, parts of that armor should come apart at the seams and he'd probably ask Shepherd for reassurance. That's ostensibly what the conversation would be about. 

and of course, the crew. We were given opportunities to speak to the crew but if there were any members of the Normandy who would be most likely to be frightened of what they were facing, it would be the crew. I'd say of any of them, each person we speak to should at the very least mention their confidence or general perspective on the odds of the Normandy surviving. It'd be interesting if there were at least one member who genuinely did not wish to return from the mission alive. It's always an interesting perspective to hold. 

Modifié par walk0nwalls, 30 avril 2011 - 10:17 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Damnit, Zaeed? Really? Can't we have one truly amoral sociopath consumed only by anger who doesn't have a deep hidden pain, waiting to be revealed? He is my Sociopath!Shepard's best friend. If he cracked she's be forced to kill him because he'd already be dead to her.

I may talk a bit more about the others later, but I'm going to try for sleep.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 30 avril 2011 - 10:22 .

[walk0nwalls]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Damnit, Zaeed? Really? Can't we have one truly amoral sociopath consumed only by anger who doesn't have a deep hidden pain, waiting to be revealed? He is my Sociopath!Shepard's best friend. If he cracked she's be forced to kill him because he'd already be dead to her.

I may talk a bit more about the others later, but I'm going to try for sleep.

Ah, but alas. Sociopaths typically are not angry people. They're cold clinical people utterly devoid of empathy who get off sexually on power and are incapable of relating to others. Anger rarely has anything to do with it. 

Sorry to burst yer bubble. 

But if you'd like Zaeed to resolutely stay in perpetual BAMF mode, then it's all but feasible that he always responds with, "I do not think about Death. When I die Death will find me with my finger around the trigger but I will not have devoted a moment of my life to having thought of Death. Death is my friend, my ally, I am the servant of death and when I die Death will kill me with the absolute certainty that I will have never believed that it could've betrayed me and I will be at Death's side, a figment of the shade again. 

I am devoid of dreams or fear or desire Shepherd. You paid a pittance of a price to have the servant of Death at your side. Our enemies will not know fear, for Death is not fear. They will hear quiet. They will hear the sounds of our guns then the ever-glistening quiet moving through the dark: the space from whence the came and to whence they've gone. I will not die. The lot of you may yet disappear into the murk of the stars but I will not die. What you need to worry about is keeping yourselves alive but I will not die yet. Not here, not now, and not with you. Have I made myself perfectly clear?

Now, if you're quite done, I've got guns to clean."

Modifié par walk0nwalls, 30 avril 2011 - 10:47 .

[Skilled Seeker]

OP wants to turn Shepard into this:



No thanks.

[walk0nwalls]

I don't think acknowledging weakness is a trait to be maligned or expressing interest in our role in the universe is something to be mocked but if you'd prefer to be about your fellow Marines sniffing each other's jockstraps that's more than your right to do so.

Edit: and having taken a look at the rest of your postings, it seems relatively clear that you already do so. Enjoy your homosocial bonding and declarations of collective manliness. 

Edit 2: And now for the full-fledged response. You know what I think you fear? I think you fear the intrusion of intricacy and frailty into your idiotic completely unrealistic interpretation of what it means to be a soldier, what it means to be a badass. You sit there with your undeserved position touting your own masculinity and scoff and whinge at anyone who would dare to infuse darkness and sadness and the character of life into what is little more than a cardboard cutout for various penis sizes. You and your ilk are among the very worst that the world has to offer because you fail to acknowledge that appropriately grim circumstances call for appropriately grim responses. Or would you still continue to prance about proclaimingly loudly that only the degenerate and deviant would have any responses emotional or otherwise to adverse conditions? 

What I ask for is reality. And say what you will about emos and people who cry, at the very least they are honest about what they experience, no matter how unrefined or undignified it may be. In a world where everything is sublimated to dishonesty and pretense at the very least emos are honest. That is more than can be said about you and every single one of your ilk who subscribe to a broken, dishonest, and fundamentally warped conception of heteronormative masculinity that would excise fear and frailty from human experience and suggest that only those without fear or regret can be brave. 

I refuse to sit here and be told by you most of all how I'm supposed to be pigeon-holed into exactly how I'm supposed to enjoy and roleplay my character. I refuse to sit here and simply wolf down yet another bland overcooked slosh of heteronormative gender expectations. 

I demand more of Bioware because if there is any company that could consistently do better in characterization and emotional attachment, if there is any company that has consistently demonstrated their dedication to the value of emotions and relationships with other individuals, it would be Bioware. So I will not sit here and let you make a blanket derision of the entire premise of my argument. We deserve better and you deserve less. What you preach and peddle is poison and the sooner we get rid of it, the better. 

Modifié par walk0nwalls, 30 avril 2011 - 11:03 .