152 réponses à ce sujet

[Skilled Seeker]

lol u mad brah?

[Nixter Shepard]

I am really hoping that ME 3 has some more scenes like the one at the end of LotSb where Shep is able to process more of an emotional standpoint on the issues at hand. Shep doesn't need to begin sobbing like a baby, but he/she is still human and it's odd for them not to shed even the slightest bit of emotion when faced with such extremeties.

[walk0nwalls]

Nixter Shepard wrote...

I am really hoping that ME 3 has some more scenes like the one at the end of LotSb where Shep is able to process more of an emotional standpoint on the issues at hand. Shep doesn't need to begin sobbing like a baby, but he/she is still human and it's odd for them not to shed even the slightest bit of emotion when faced with such extremeties.

Thanks. This is what I was getting at. It's also why I got rather mad at the above poster because you run into more than your fair share of his kind whenever you even suggest that a masculine character should express something more than a robotic lack of emotion. 

Edit, to the above: There is constructively trying to point out that there are upper bounds to introspective soul-searching and then there is what you did which is trying to shut down the conversation by humiliating all participants. Damn right I'm mad and I've got good reason to be so.

Now get out. 

Modifié par walk0nwalls, 30 avril 2011 - 11:15 .

[Skilled Seeker]

Cry some more emo boy.

[GuardianAngel470]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

Most of my Shepherd's never really considered death to be possible, they think far to much of themselves.

Mine lives a day to day existance, dealing with problems as they arise rather than worrying about them.

I can understand wanting the characters to say something about the suicide mission, I tend to like dark and foreboding stories and settings, but they didn't. Besides Miranda none of them should.

Jacob's a soldier and was on Eden Prime during the attack by Saren. He's seen death and battled that demon in himself already.

Jack is a killer and a torture victim, I don't think worrying about a suicide mission would really be in character.

Samara has spent hundreds of years chasing her daughter around asari space, seen death literally thousands of times, and is at peace with living a life alone and of dying alone.

Garrus is also a soldier and he went to hell and back with Shepard. He knows what s/he's capable of and has the confidence in their abilities to not worry about it.

Ditto with Tali. She's seen from a personal perspective what Shepard can do, she knows s/he can do whatever s/he sets out to do.

Thane is dying and was on his own suicide mission when Shepard found him. No real reason for him to reflect besides on his relationship with his son, which he was already doing.

Mordin deals with emotions faster than a human. He probably did worry about the mission but came to some conclusion or another before he felt he needed to voice his concerns.

Zaeed, as per LotSB, doesn't really care. He was thinking about committing spectacular suicide after the Suicide mission anyway.

Grunt's a child Krogan. Not only does violence run in every Krogan's blood he also doesn't even have the temperance or maturity to care about death. Death to him is something he inflicts on others, he isn't old enough to reflect on the consequences.

Kasumi and Miranda are the only ones that might voice their concerns. Miranda violently escaped from her father and Kasumi regularly uses violence (stealthy violence) in her line of work but neither of them really have combat training to fall back on nor real combat experience. There's a major difference between a gangland slaying and a firefight, namely in quantity of bullets.

So I don't really understand why people want everybody to reflect philosophically on their mortality and to voice their concerns to Shepard.

[walk0nwalls]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...

Most of my Shepherd's never really considered death to be possible, they think far to much of themselves.

Mine lives a day to day existance, dealing with problems as they arise rather than worrying about them.

I can understand wanting the characters to say something about the suicide mission, I tend to like dark and foreboding stories and settings, but they didn't. Besides Miranda none of them should.

Jacob's a soldier and was on Eden Prime during the attack by Saren. He's seen death and battled that demon in himself already.

Jack is a killer and a torture victim, I don't think worrying about a suicide mission would really be in character.

Samara has spent hundreds of years chasing her daughter around asari space, seen death literally thousands of times, and is at peace with living a life alone and of dying alone.

Garrus is also a soldier and he went to hell and back with Shepard. He knows what s/he's capable of and has the confidence in their abilities to not worry about it.

Ditto with Tali. She's seen from a personal perspective what Shepard can do, she knows s/he can do whatever s/he sets out to do.

Thane is dying and was on his own suicide mission when Shepard found him. No real reason for him to reflect besides on his relationship with his son, which he was already doing.

Mordin deals with emotions faster than a human. He probably did worry about the mission but came to some conclusion or another before he felt he needed to voice his concerns.

Zaeed, as per LotSB, doesn't really care. He was thinking about committing spectacular suicide after the Suicide mission anyway.

Grunt's a child Krogan. Not only does violence run in every Krogan's blood he also doesn't even have the temperance or maturity to care about death. Death to him is something he inflicts on others, he isn't old enough to reflect on the consequences.

Kasumi and Miranda are the only ones that might voice their concerns. Miranda violently escaped from her father and Kasumi regularly uses violence (stealthy violence) in her line of work but neither of them really have combat training to fall back on nor real combat experience. There's a major difference between a gangland slaying and a firefight, namely in quantity of bullets.

So I don't really understand why people want everybody to reflect philosophically on their mortality and to voice their concerns to Shepard.

Well it's not so much that they don't speak of things out of character, it's that save for a few instances the above circumstances are never voiced. If Tali and Garrus are as confident in Shepherd as they are, they should say so. I agree with your appraisal of everyone (well, save Mordin. My opinion is that he's old and harbors many regrets for what he's done and is largely at peace with dying in his old age)  but in the circumstances where the individual does not believe in the plausibility of the suicide mission, it seems like something that should be voiced. 

Once or twice. It just seems like something that would come up in the course of conversation. 

Also, Re: Jacob. Just because you're a soldier doesn't mean you're ready or willing to die. It bears repeating, people. 

Modifié par walk0nwalls, 30 avril 2011 - 11:25 .

[Skilled Seeker]

No emos in ME3. Evolution would have killed them off.

[GuardianAngel470]

walk0nwalls wrote...


Well it's not so much that they don't speak of things out of character, it's that save for a few instances the above circumstances are never voiced. If Tali and Garrus are as confident in Shepherd as they are, they should say so. I agree with your appraisal of everyone (well, save Mordin. My opinion is that he's old and harbors many regrets for what he's done and is largely at peace with dying in his old age)  but in the circumstances where the individual does not believe in the plausibility of the suicide mission, it seems like something that should be voiced. 

Once or twice. It just seems like something that would come up in the course of conversation. 

Also, Re: Jacob. Just because you're a soldier doesn't mean you're ready or willing to die. It bears repeating, people. 

I agree, just because you are a soldier doesn't mean that you're suddenly immune to weakness. However, I have two comments about soldiers and Jacob.

First, being a soldier means you've had training. Training gives you something to fall back on when you're scared and is the difference between a civilian and a soldier. The average civilian would never run through gunfire to take a hill yet soldiers do. The average civilian would never jump on top of a grenade to save his friends but a soldier might.

Second, Jacob was on Eden Prime which means he's seen combat. It was a small colony. Having seen combat makes a lot of difference in a soldier's perception of death and dying. A green Private fresh off the transport will act differently, think differently, and speak differently than a private on the end of their tour.

That's how I see it anyway.

[Skilled Seeker]

That's right. No such thing as wimpy emo soldiers.

[Confused-Shepard]

I agree. Everyone is way too chill about the mission like they do this everyday and couldn't care less
I surprised the squad-mates weren't yawning or blowing some bubble gum going 'Watevs' during Shepard's epic speech.

Oh my! It's the suicide mission! Get ready everyone! Woo Hoo!!

That's the attitude everyone seems to have. On the other hand they all turn into Shakespearean drama actors when talking about how daddy never hugged them enough. Nobody reacts to anything unless it's personal. There is never a moment where someone just panics even for a moment and I mean, "Looks like this is it... ****!" and not "GAME OVER MAN!!! AAAAAA!!!!!"

[GuardianAngel470]

Confused-Shepard wrote...

I agree. Everyone is way too chill about the mission like they do this everyday and couldn't care less
I surprised the squad-mates weren't yawning or blowing some bubble gum going 'Watevs' during Shepard's epic speech.

Oh my! It's the suicide mission! Get ready everyone! Woo Hoo!!

That's the attitude everyone seems to have. On the other hand they all turn into Shakespearean drama actors when talking about how daddy never hugged them enough. Nobody reacts to anything unless it's personal. There is never a moment where someone just panics even for a moment and I mean, "Looks like this is it... ****!" and not "GAME OVER MAN!!! AAAAAA!!!!!"

To be perfectly honest if any of my crew said your latter example I'd kick them off my ship. Or rather, out the airlock.

Kinda like Kelly....

[Confused-Shepard]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Confused-Shepard wrote...

I agree. Everyone is way too chill about the mission like they do this everyday and couldn't care less
I surprised the squad-mates weren't yawning or blowing some bubble gum going 'Watevs' during Shepard's epic speech.

Oh my! It's the suicide mission! Get ready everyone! Woo Hoo!!

That's the attitude everyone seems to have. On the other hand they all turn into Shakespearean drama actors when talking about how daddy never hugged them enough. Nobody reacts to anything unless it's personal. There is never a moment where someone just panics even for a moment and I mean, "Looks like this is it... ****!" and not "GAME OVER MAN!!! AAAAAA!!!!!"

To be perfectly honest if any of my crew said your latter example I'd kick them off my ship. Or rather, out the airlock.

Kinda like Kelly....

Same here. I believe Chakwas is the only one who responds to a question about death. She says that she has seen a lot of good young men & women die in front of her. She spenther life on battleships and has led a good life. No regrets. Why don't we get this with others?

I could imagine Samara giving some Yoda-esque sage advice about the nature of death but we don't. 
Missed oppurtunity. I would imagine Tali of all people would get bit of a dry throat during the mission. 

It's way too.. YAH!! AWESOME! OORAH!!

I don't want the to huddle in a corner and have a nervous break down like this ---> 
But come on! Are you going on a suicide mission or going to pick up the grocieries? Reaction please.
Yet in their Loyalty missions eveveryone goes all dramatic.

Modifié par Confused-Shepard, 30 avril 2011 - 11:52 .

[Skilled Seeker]

The mission comes first. They can have emo nervous breakdowns and slit their wrists afterwards... if they survive.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

I don't think many of the characters acted OOC when it came to them not responding or reflectiong over the fact that they were on a suicide mission. The only one I felt that was a brick was Shepard and his own (and most the cast) indiffrence to his death.

[Confused-Shepard]

Skilled Seeker wrote...

The mission comes first. They can have emo nervous breakdowns and slit their wrists afterwards... if they survive.

You know in the military it is mandatory to have regular psyche evaluations and councillors check your mental health by discussing things like personal issues, fears and such
If you end up a brick and cold then it's generally seen as a bad thing because it means you are bottling up your emotions and at a crucial point you'll just snap. Generals want mentally healthy people fighting for them NOT psychos

[Skilled Seeker]

Says the emo sympathiser.

[walk0nwalls]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...


I agree, just because you are a soldier doesn't mean that you're suddenly immune to weakness. However, I have two comments about soldiers and Jacob.

First, being a soldier means you've had training. Training gives you something to fall back on when you're scared and is the difference between a civilian and a soldier. The average civilian would never run through gunfire to take a hill yet soldiers do. The average civilian would never jump on top of a grenade to save his friends but a soldier might.

Second, Jacob was on Eden Prime which means he's seen combat. It was a small colony. Having seen combat makes a lot of difference in a soldier's perception of death and dying. A green Private fresh off the transport will act differently, think differently, and speak differently than a private on the end of their tour.

That's how I see it anyway.

That's a good read. Makes me wish Jacob had actually said something (or anything) to this effect during the game. Maybe then I wouldn't have found him so bloody boring. 

[walk0nwalls]

Lizardviking wrote...

I don't think many of the characters acted OOC when it came to them not responding or reflectiong over the fact that they were on a suicide mission. The only one I felt that was a brick was Shepard and his own (and most the cast) indiffrence to his death.

I'm including the crew in this 'brick' designation. While most of the companions did a moderately okay job, I'd think the members of the crew would be most willing to offer either their doubts or their confidences to Shepherd re: the success or failure of the mission. 

Like the above said, Chakwas. Wasn't too much, just a word or two, but it was enough. 

[Skilled Seeker]

You mean you wish Jacob was an emo? No way.

EDIT: You want the whole crew to be a bunch of emos! Hell no! Man up son.

Modifié par Skilled Seeker, 30 avril 2011 - 12:52 .

[walk0nwalls]

Skilled Seeker wrote...

You mean you wish Jacob was an emo? No way.

EDIT: You want the whole crew to be a bunch of emos! Hell no! Man up son.

We've lost more soldiers to suicide than to combat casualties in the Iraq war. I'll man up when people stop dying from not being listened to. Until then, I'll be here saying that soldiers who feel fear or hurt or pain or agony still deserve life while you tell rows of flag-draped coffins to man up. 

[Moiaussi]

Getting back to the OP, Shepard's death should have mattered more as a plot point simply because it is an interesting topic to explore.

The sudden lack of Spectre status should be the same, especially since we were told that Shepard never officially lost status, so why would Shep take it so lightly when offered it back by the Council?

As for the suicide mission, the term actualy comes in game from Shepard. Shepard is the one calling it that. And Shep should know better since the last 'suicide mission' he lead a team through was anything but, with low casualties. In fact the only actual 'suicide mission' the Normandy crew has been through was a routine anti-geth patrol at the start of ME2, which is reminiscent of soldiers in Afghanistan seeing no squad casualties in all the actual firefights only to have their squad wiped out by an IED as they are part of a routine comvoy.

As for Shepard's lack of reaction to a lot of these things, it is possible that Cerberus either did put in a control chip after all, or lazarus wasn't perfect and ME2-Shep (Shep2?) lost something in transition or was otherwise suffered some sort of personality altering (possibly unintentional, but not neccessarily)

[Skilled Seeker]

walk0nwalls wrote...

Skilled Seeker wrote...

You mean you wish Jacob was an emo? No way.

EDIT: You want the whole crew to be a bunch of emos! Hell no! Man up son.

We've lost more soldiers to suicide than to combat casualties in the Iraq war. I'll man up when people stop dying from not being listened to. Until then, I'll be here saying that soldiers who feel fear or hurt or pain or agony still deserve life while you tell rows of flag-draped coffins to man up. 

I was trolling if that wasn't clear. Chillax dude. I agree with you, just playing devil's advocate.

Modifié par Skilled Seeker, 30 avril 2011 - 01:46 .

[Almostfaceman]

walk0nwalls wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...

they're all highly trained to deal with death. no ones going to wuss out or anything lol.
what a ridiculous topic. sure if tthey were normal people they might get all angsty and whiney about it.

Where exactly did this idea come from that soldiers are trained to deal with death? Soldiers are trained to inflict death, they are typically not expected - or even encouraged - to think of themselves as vulnerable beings. 

This is why the corpse diggers in the Army are such a maligned battallion of soldiers - their existence is a constant reminder of the continuing mortality of being a soldier, a reality that most soldiers willfully try to avoid as much as possible. Once thrust into a suicide mission standpoint though, Shepherd + co are forcibly placed in the same position as the corpse carriers in Iraq, faced constantly with the evidence of their own impending demise. 

Civilians might yet be better-equipped to deal with death than soldiers. It's only those who stare constantly into the face of death who are best-equipped to face it. Soldiers do not do that. Soldiers inflict death then leave as their opponents bleed out on the floor. Never do they want to aknowledge that it could happen to them. A suicide mission such as Mass Effect 2's could've been a fallow opportunity to exploit and blow apart this ridiculous and obviously false perception inherent to being a soldier: the perception of immortality. 

I'm well aware that Mass Effect tends to attract its own fair share of the hoo-rah Marines forever crowd, but what exactly do you lot have to say in the face of the corpse diggers in Iraq with their blood-stained cammies and jobs of ever gazing upon the shredded corpses of the dead? Soldiers are not those best-trained to deal with death. Those are the jobs of priests, philosophers, civilians as you so derisively call them. Meaning to life is not achieved through action, but rather through introspection. And no amount of bullets fired will be able to change that. 

As a former soldier, I can tell you that you are completely wrong.  You are so far from right on this it's almost scary.

I can remember one time specifically, after a weapons demonstration, we were told that the average foot-soldier in modern warfare has (according to Army studies) the average life span of four minutes.

We're taught to fight and win, but we're also taught it is a grave serious job we're about. Nobody is more aware of how many ways there are to die than a soldier.

[walk0nwalls]

Almostfaceman wrote...

As a former soldier, I can tell you that you are completely wrong.  You are so far from right on this it's almost scary.

I can remember one time specifically, after a weapons demonstration, we were told that the average foot-soldier in modern warfare has (according to Army studies) the average life span of four minutes.

We're taught to fight and win, but we're also taught it is a grave serious job we're about. Nobody is more aware of how many ways there are to die than a soldier.

But some are more aware than others and as many have correctly noted, that's not exactly something you're thinking about on the battlefield, now is it? I mean, there is a difference between heading out into an area with the knowledge that there is a probability of death and heading into an area being informed that death is an absolute certainty. Your perspective changes. The way you approach things change. And when death becomes a certainty you move further away from the artilleryman's often laconic detachment much closer to the corpse digger's immediacy where they have to look at it every day. 

You can consider and prepare for death all you want, but that's the realm of philosophy and religion, therapy and psychology. It's why it's completely bollocks that there isn't sufficient mental health treatment for soldiers once they come back from the war. 

[Almostfaceman]

walk0nwalls wrote...

I don't think acknowledging weakness is a trait to be maligned or expressing interest in our role in the universe is something to be mocked but if you'd prefer to be about your fellow Marines sniffing each other's jockstraps that's more than your right to do so.

Edit: and having taken a look at the rest of your postings, it seems relatively clear that you already do so. Enjoy your homosocial bonding and declarations of collective manliness. 

Edit 2: And now for the full-fledged response. You know what I think you fear? I think you fear the intrusion of intricacy and frailty into your idiotic completely unrealistic interpretation of what it means to be a soldier, what it means to be a badass. You sit there with your undeserved position touting your own masculinity and scoff and whinge at anyone who would dare to infuse darkness and sadness and the character of life into what is little more than a cardboard cutout for various penis sizes. You and your ilk are among the very worst that the world has to offer because you fail to acknowledge that appropriately grim circumstances call for appropriately grim responses. Or would you still continue to prance about proclaimingly loudly that only the degenerate and deviant would have any responses emotional or otherwise to adverse conditions?

Look, I know you're mad at a particular poster on this board, so you may want to refrain from ignorant stereotypes of Marines or other branches of service. It tends to anger those who you're not aiming at.  And it's against the Site Rules to start flaming people.

What I ask for is reality. And say what you will about emos and people who cry, at the very least they are honest about what they experience, no matter how unrefined or undignified it may be. In a world where everything is sublimated to dishonesty and pretense at the very least emos are honest. That is more than can be said about you and every single one of your ilk who subscribe to a broken, dishonest, and fundamentally warped conception of heteronormative masculinity that would excise fear and frailty from human experience and suggest that only those without fear or regret can be brave.

There's a reason that men on the battlefield strive to be brave and not whine and cry.  The reason is, if you're freaking out in combat, you get your friends killed and you probably end up dead. That's reality. If you're freaking out in the barracks, you make your squad nervous, then they may feel they can't rely on you, that breaks down unit cohesion, and people can die from that as well. Yes, we as soldiers experience fear and sadness and depression and loss. Life is still staring at you in the face in the end always tellin' you "so I'm unfair, what ya gonna do about it?"

I refuse to sit here and be told by you most of all how I'm supposed to be pigeon-holed into exactly how I'm supposed to enjoy and roleplay my character. I refuse to sit here and simply wolf down yet another bland overcooked slosh of heteronormative gender expectations.

Public board, dude. If you want to air your opinion expect people to disagree with you. I'm sure nobody here can force you to change your mind.

I demand more of Bioware because if there is any company that could consistently do better in characterization and emotional attachment, if there is any company that has consistently demonstrated their dedication to the value of emotions and relationships with other individuals, it would be Bioware. So I will not sit here and let you make a blanket derision of the entire premise of my argument. We deserve better and you deserve less. What you preach and peddle is poison and the sooner we get rid of it, the better. 

Fine, demand more. At some point though, critique gets old and comes across as nit-picking and constant complaining. Just be aware that some people have been here a long time and have "heard it all" and are tired of - after the game has been out for a long time - people still critiquing. They start to sound like the ever-whining back seat driver after a while.

So yeah, voice your opinion dude. Just don't expect everyone to agree with it or be in a receptive mood for it.