95 réponses à ce sujet

[Black Raptor]

"Why don't the reapers just fly in?"

A common question posted by noobs and was easily explained away until Arrival came out.
Now suddenly it is revealed that the Reapers are 2 days away from simply flying to the alpha relay, and the question is valid. Why don't they?

The whole point of ME1 was to stop Sovereign opening the Citadel relay as that was the only way the reapers were going to get in. But if the reapers were within flying distance to the Alpha reley, why didn't they just do that instead? Why attack the Citadel with a single Reaper when they could have done it with all of them? 

The main way the Reapers were supposed to get in was have the keepers open the relay. That failed however long ago (possibly before the Rachni wars which puts it 2000 years ago at least) so naturally they would move on to plan B. Why was that plan B Sovereign? Surely they would've known getting so many individuals involved with an elaborate plot would mean that their existence would be let out of the bag? Even though their first plan had failed, nobody knew it except them. If their plan B had been a little more subtle, they would've gotten in. Just fly to the Alpha relay, jump to the Citadel, kill the council, get all the census data, reprogram the keepers, close all the relays off to everyone but themselves and proceed with reapage. There would have been nobody to stop them because nobody would've known they existed.

This to me seems like an enormous plot hole. 
What have I missed or what scenario do you use to remedy this? 

Modifié par Black Raptor, 29 avril 2011 - 08:48 .

[Rurik_Niall]

It's not that they couldn't get there another way, it's that it's more effective for them to strike at the Citadel. Think of it like chess, if you capture the king you win. The Citadel is the king, you swoop in, capture it, cut the rest of the galaxy off from the relay network and you've already won.

[XyleJKH]

Ok bud, youre on to something. They probably have been on the move since the rachni war. Also sovereign had been on the move looking for a way to manually activate the citadel. He got a hold of Saren. The collectors were just getting ready for the reapers. Just chill.

[Black Raptor]

Rurik_Niall wrote...

It's not that they couldn't get there another way, it's that it's more effective for them to strike at the Citadel. Think of it like chess, if you capture the king you win. The Citadel is the king, you swoop in, capture it, cut the rest of the galaxy off from the relay network and you've already won.

It WAS more effective, but that was before the keepers disobeyed them. Surely it would've been better to then move on to plan B and attack the Citadel en masse. The Alpha relay goes to the Citadel. They could fly through Bahak system, jump to the citadel and go with the original plan from there. No need to bother with the geth or saren or the conduit. System 

XyleJKH wrote...

Ok bud, youre on to something. They probably have been on the move since the rachni war. Also sovereign had been on the move looking for a way to manually activate the citadel. He got a hold of Saren. The collectors were just getting ready for the reapers. Just chill.

But that's the thing. by the time sovereign and the geth attacked the citadel, the reapers would've only been 2 years away. Compare that to 2000 years of flying, or 50000 years of waiting, it all seems so pointless. Just wait a couple more years in secret and attack once they're at the Alpha relay. Don't let anyone know of your existence until then. 
Your theory would've been valid had sovereign attacked centuries ago. 

[Phaedon]

Hope this helps:  Reaper Invasion Plans

Modifié par Phaedon, 29 avril 2011 - 09:12 .

[jakal66]

Story is not 100% bulletproof, anyways the whole issue with the keepers sort of ruined the reapers plan...so sovereign tried to fix it,during all ME2 the reapers were getting closer and in arrival he just spoiled their plans to massively move to all relays at once...

[Rurik_Niall]

Black Raptor wrote...

It WAS more effective, but that was before the keepers disobeyed them. Surely it would've been better to then move on to plan B and attack the Citadel en masse. The Alpha relay goes to the Citadel. They could fly through Bahak system, jump to the citadel and go with the original plan from there. No need to bother with the geth or saren or the conduit. System 

This is the first time that the Keepers had done so, they hadn't planned to have Sovereign activate it manually but since the original plan went to hell thanks to the Protheans tampering with the Keepers so their signal didn't work this time they had to alter their plan.

[Black Raptor]

Phaedon wrote...

Hope this helps:  Reaper Invasion Plans

It doesn't.

The reapers were 2 years away from the Alpha relay when ME1 happened. Flying for 2 years is nothing to 50000 years and far more preferable to Sovereign's attack on the citadel. Surely Arrival would've been a better idea to Sovereign's plan? If nobody had known of their existence, nobody would've until it was too late and their invasion would've worked.  

[Phaedon]

-double post-

Modifié par Phaedon, 29 avril 2011 - 09:22 .

[Phaedon]

From the thread:

Why the Citadel?
The Citadel and Omega seem to link to multiple other systems. They are in a way, hub worlds.

Also, why not start a surprise attack in the HQ of the most important races of the galaxy than on the reaches of the galaxy, while wasting resources on your way there?

Modifié par Phaedon, 29 avril 2011 - 09:23 .

[Black Raptor]

Rurik_Niall wrote...

Black Raptor wrote...

It WAS more effective, but that was before the keepers disobeyed them. Surely it would've been better to then move on to plan B and attack the Citadel en masse. The Alpha relay goes to the Citadel. They could fly through Bahak system, jump to the citadel and go with the original plan from there. No need to bother with the geth or saren or the conduit. System 

This is the first time that the Keepers had done so, they hadn't planned to have Sovereign activate it manually but since the original plan went to hell thanks to the Protheans tampering with the Keepers so their signal didn't work this time they had to alter their plan.

I know. But why alter their plan to Sovereign instead of the plan in Arrival? Arrival would've worked had nobody known about the Reapers. We knew about the Reapers because of Sovereign. 

I'm saying that the attack plan in Arrival was far more viable than the plan in ME1. And becaues they happened 2 years apart, it would've made sense for the Reapers just to wait 2 years and attack without anybody knowing they were there. 

[Black Raptor]

Phaedon wrote...

From the thread:

Why the Citadel?
The Citadel and Omega seem to link to multiple other systems. They are in a way, hub worlds.

Why not start a surprise attack in the HQ of the most important races of the galaxy than on the reaches of the galaxy, while wasting resources on your way there?

Because A: if they started flying when the keepers failed (+2000 years ago) then what is a mere 2 more years to them? Negligable resource loss. If they didn't start flying until then, then they were at most 2 years distance out into darkspace and it would've still made more sense for them to simply fly in when the keepers failed rather than go with Sovereign. 
and B: the alpha relay is also a hub. It is also stated in game that it links to the citadel, so even if it wasn't hubby enough, they could still just jump to the citadel hub anyway

[marshalleck]

Good luck with this pursuit, Black Raptor. You're going to get a bunch of people in here repeating the same crap as if it's answer to your question: "they attack the citadel because it cut of the head of the snake HERP DERP"

Some people just can't see the obvious problem here, or they refuse to. Believe me, I know. I've been barking up this tree for over a year now. 

Modifié par marshalleck, 29 avril 2011 - 09:28 .

[Demigod]

Basicly their main plan was always take the citadel first. Yes as it allowed the reapers a fast back door BUT also in my opinion the main reason for this is the citadel controls the relay network. - this is mentioned by Vigil on ilos (systems cut off from each other, destroyed one by one) and shown again in Me1 by Shep unlocking the citadel relay for joker and allowing the human fleet to aid the citadel fleet. Control the citadel and you can cut off every system from help.

Arrival just slowed the slower way of getting back. The ALPHA relay as called by the human team - not the reapers- is just a handy access point closest to them. Coming the slow way means they have no control over the relay network, and will have a war spread over multiple system not just the ones they want to attack one at a time.

[Black Raptor]

marshalleck wrote...

Good luck with this pursuit, Black Raptor. You're going to get a bunch of people in here repeating the same crap as if it's answer to your question: "they attack the citadel because it cut of the head of the snake HERP DERP"

Some people just can't see the obvious problem here, or they refuse to.

That's the thing. They still could attack the head of the snake. The Alpha relay links to the Citadel. They don't have to stop in Bahak, they could fly passed and go to the Citadel that way. Far more sensible than Sovereign's attack.  

[Rurik_Niall]

Black Raptor wrote...

I know. But why alter their plan to Sovereign instead of the plan in Arrival? Arrival would've worked had nobody known about the Reapers. We knew about the Reapers because of Sovereign. 

I'm saying that the attack plan in Arrival was far more viable than the plan in ME1. And becaues they happened 2 years apart, it would've made sense for the Reapers just to wait 2 years and attack without anybody knowing they were there. 

Because the plan was still mostly the same, the only thing that stopped it from succeeding was Shepard. If Shepard hadn't showed up and stopped Saren from opening the relay they would have won. If you were dealing with something you viewed as little more than roaches would you really expect one particular roach to prevent you from something  as simple as opening the door so the rest of your kind can come in and proceed to curb stomp the vermin?

[marshalleck]

Black Raptor wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Good luck with this pursuit, Black Raptor. You're going to get a bunch of people in here repeating the same crap as if it's answer to your question: "they attack the citadel because it cut of the head of the snake HERP DERP"

Some people just can't see the obvious problem here, or they refuse to.

That's the thing. They still could attack the head of the snake. The Alpha relay links to the Citadel. They don't have to stop in Bahak, they could fly passed and go to the Citadel that way. Far more sensible than Sovereign's attack.  

I know. Believe me, I know. I've been over this dozens of times. I see the same problem you do. 

[Phaedon]

1. The Reapers didn't realize that the keepers couldn't be activated until they tried to activate them.

2. They would go reap far earlier. Because they can't have the mass relay unlocked forever, that's not how mass relays work.

3. The Alpha Relay is a hub to minor systems.

4. Shepard him/herself said "Saren is leading the geth to a surprise attack!"

5. Therefore, the Reapers lose the element of surprise.

6. If I remember correctly, nowhere in the game is it stated that the alpha relay links to the Citadel.

7. They would waste tons of resources to get to the Milky Way. 2 years in FTL speeds right before multiple years of reaping and combat can't be good.

Modifié par Phaedon, 29 avril 2011 - 09:33 .

[Almostfaceman]

Black Raptor wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

Hope this helps:  Reaper Invasion Plans

It doesn't.

The reapers were 2 years away from the Alpha relay when ME1 happened. Flying for 2 years is nothing to 50000 years and far more preferable to Sovereign's attack on the citadel. Surely Arrival would've been a better idea to Sovereign's plan? If nobody had known of their existence, nobody would've until it was too late and their invasion would've worked.  

Nope, you're operating from hindsight.  Soveriegn didn't think he was going to fail and he wasn't worried about being destroyed.  Millions of years of success breeds arrogance.

[Phaedon]

8. As Almostfaceman said, Sovereign wouldn't have failed if it wasn't for Shepard, both the fact that he destroyed the Saren avatar and that he alerted the whole Council fleet to get ready for a surprise attack by Saren.

[marshalleck]

Phaedon wrote...

8. As Almostfaceman said, Sovereign wouldn't have failed if it wasn't for Shepard, both the fact that he destroyed the Saren avatar and that he alerted the whole Council fleet to get ready for a surprise attack by Saren.

And if they had just flown in from dark space 2,000 years ago when the keepers failed, instead of messing around with the rachni and whatever else Sovereign had his tentacles in, there would have been no chance of Shepard or any other organic foiling their plans. If they're only 2 years out of the galaxy why dick around trying to crack the Citadel for 2,000?

[Phaedon]

marshalleck wrote...
I know. Believe me, I know. I've been over this dozens of times. I see the same problem you do. 

Are you basically trying to prove that this is a plothole in ME1's plot marshalleck?
Because we know since ME1 that the Reapers live in dark space.

[Black Raptor]

Demigod wrote...

Basicly their main plan was always take the citadel first. Yes as it allowed the reapers a fast back door BUT also in my opinion the main reason for this is the citadel controls the relay network. - this is mentioned by Vigil on ilos (systems cut off from each other, destroyed one by one) and shown again in Me1 by Shep unlocking the citadel relay for joker and allowing the human fleet to aid the citadel fleet. Control the citadel and you can cut off every system from help.

Arrival just slowed the slower way of getting back. The ALPHA relay as called by the human team - not the reapers- is just a handy access point closest to them. Coming the slow way means they have no control over the relay network, and will have a war spread over multiple system not just the ones they want to attack one at a time.

fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu

They STILL COULD attack the citadel first. The Alpha relay LINKS DIRECTLY TO IT. Had the events of ME1 not happened then nobody would've known about the reapers and nobody would have been there to fling an asteroid into the relay.

The alpha relay was a slower way of getting back than their original plan, but their original plan involved the Keepers and that went wrong a long time ago. Arrival would've been 2 years behind sovereign's plan which is no time at all for Reapers, and would've been far more successful. 

[jakal66]

Demigod wrote...

Basicly their main plan was always take the citadel first. Yes as it allowed the reapers a fast back door BUT also in my opinion the main reason for this is the citadel controls the relay network. - this is mentioned by Vigil on ilos (systems cut off from each other, destroyed one by one) and shown again in Me1 by Shep unlocking the citadel relay for joker and allowing the human fleet to aid the citadel fleet. Control the citadel and you can cut off every system from help.

Arrival just slowed the slower way of getting back. The ALPHA relay as called by the human team - not the reapers- is just a handy access point closest to them. Coming the slow way means they have no control over the relay network, and will have a war spread over multiple system not just the ones they want to attack one at a time.

That is the key,had their plan succeeded as it did with the protheans and other races they would have cut comms and the relays as well.They were using a method that had worked perfectly until the protheans who were off the grid managed to screw their original plans, the repear that remained in the system to check status decided to try and fix it  and even vigil talked about soverign being bold and stubborn with the idea of manually regaining  control of the citadel

Modifié par jakal66, 29 avril 2011 - 09:39 .

[Phaedon]

marshalleck wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

8. As Almostfaceman said, Sovereign wouldn't have failed if it wasn't for Shepard, both the fact that he destroyed the Saren avatar and that he alerted the whole Council fleet to get ready for a surprise attack by Saren.

And if they had just flown in from dark space 2,000 years ago when the keepers failed, instead of messing around with the rachni and whatever else Sovereign had his tentacles in, there would have been no chance of Shepard or any other organic foiling their plans. If they're only 2 years out of the galaxy why dick around trying to crack the Citadel for 2,000?

Are you asking why they reap every 50,000 years and why not every 48,000 or 35,000 years?

Because that's their schedulre. 

Also, the keepers failed only 2,000 years ago? That's hard ot believe.