95 réponses à ce sujet

[Phaedon]

Black Raptor wrote...

Demigod wrote...

Basicly their main plan was always take the citadel first. Yes as it allowed the reapers a fast back door BUT also in my opinion the main reason for this is the citadel controls the relay network. - this is mentioned by Vigil on ilos (systems cut off from each other, destroyed one by one) and shown again in Me1 by Shep unlocking the citadel relay for joker and allowing the human fleet to aid the citadel fleet. Control the citadel and you can cut off every system from help.

Arrival just slowed the slower way of getting back. The ALPHA relay as called by the human team - not the reapers- is just a handy access point closest to them. Coming the slow way means they have no control over the relay network, and will have a war spread over multiple system not just the ones they want to attack one at a time.

fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu

They STILL COULD attack the citadel first. The Alpha relay LINKS DIRECTLY TO IT. Had the events of ME1 not happened then nobody would've known about the reapers and nobody would have been there to fling an asteroid into the relay.

The alpha relay was a slower way of getting back than their original plan, but their original plan involved the Keepers and that went wrong a long time ago. Arrival would've been 2 years behind sovereign's plan which is no time at all for Reapers, and would've been far more successful. 

Source.

Nao.

[JeffZero]

Reminds me of a terrific dialogue bit from the first regular-length episode of BSG.

"Why do the cylons attack every 33 minutes, anyway? Why not 29 minutes? Or like... 38 minutes?"
"Shut up, Cally."

[Phaedon]

Actually, forget about the source, I call BS.

The Citadel Relay hasn't been activated for 50,000 years. The Alpha Relay, which is used daily, can't link to it.

Modifié par Phaedon, 29 avril 2011 - 09:39 .

[marshalleck]

Phaedon wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

8. As Almostfaceman said, Sovereign wouldn't have failed if it wasn't for Shepard, both the fact that he destroyed the Saren avatar and that he alerted the whole Council fleet to get ready for a surprise attack by Saren.

And if they had just flown in from dark space 2,000 years ago when the keepers failed, instead of messing around with the rachni and whatever else Sovereign had his tentacles in, there would have been no chance of Shepard or any other organic foiling their plans. If they're only 2 years out of the galaxy why dick around trying to crack the Citadel for 2,000?

Are you asking why they reap every 50,000 years and why not every 48,000 or 35,000 years?

Because that's their schedulre. 

Also, the keepers failed only 2,000 years ago? That's hard ot believe.

1) They don't reap every 50,000 years like clockwork. They reap when their vanguard wakes up and finds organics inhabiting the Citadel, whether that's 25,000, 50,000, 100,000 or any other interval. 

2) We don't know when the keepers failed. The rachni are convinced that the Reapers indoctrinated them and sent them against the Citadel some 2,000 years ago. That may have been Sovereign's first attempt to wrest control of the citadel away from its current occupants. 

Modifié par marshalleck, 29 avril 2011 - 09:41 .

[jakal66]

marshalleck wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

8. As Almostfaceman said, Sovereign wouldn't have failed if it wasn't for Shepard, both the fact that he destroyed the Saren avatar and that he alerted the whole Council fleet to get ready for a surprise attack by Saren.

And if they had just flown in from dark space 2,000 years ago when the keepers failed, instead of messing around with the rachni and whatever else Sovereign had his tentacles in, there would have been no chance of Shepard or any other organic foiling their plans. If they're only 2 years out of the galaxy why dick around trying to crack the Citadel for 2,000?

Are you asking why they reap every 50,000 years and why not every 48,000 or 35,000 years?

Because that's their schedulre. 

Also, the keepers failed only 2,000 years ago? That's hard ot believe.

1) They don't reap every 50,000 years like clockwork. They reap when their vanguard wakes up and finds organics inhabiting the Citadel, whether that's 25,000, 50,00, 100,000 or any other interval. 

2) We don't know when the keepers failed. The rachni are convinced that the Reapers indoctrinated them and sent them against the Citadel some 2,000 years ago. That may have been Sovereign's first attempt to wrest control of the citadel away from its current occupants. 

Interesting...makes sense

[Rurik_Niall]

marshalleck wrote...

And if they had just flown in from dark space 2,000 years ago when the keepers failed, instead of messing around with the rachni and whatever else Sovereign had his tentacles in, there would have been no chance of Shepard or any other organic foiling their plans. If they're only 2 years out of the galaxy why dick around trying to crack the Citadel for 2,000?

Because they hibernate out there in dark space, apart from Sovereign they weren't aware anything had gone wrong until Sovereign got blown to robot hell.

[jakal66]

Rurik_Niall wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

And if they had just flown in from dark space 2,000 years ago when the keepers failed, instead of messing around with the rachni and whatever else Sovereign had his tentacles in, there would have been no chance of Shepard or any other organic foiling their plans. If they're only 2 years out of the galaxy why dick around trying to crack the Citadel for 2,000?

Because they hibernate out there in dark space, apart from Sovereign they weren't aware anything had gone wrong until Sovereign got blown to robot hell.

True, I believe they are improvising...as with the human reaper...too bad Sheppard is there to poop on their plans every time....

Now the final confrontation begins and I'm guessing he's pooping on them again

[Phaedon]

marshalleck wrote...
1) They don't reap every 50,000 years like clockwork. They reap when their vanguard wakes up and finds organics inhabiting the Citadel, whether that's 25,000, 50,000, or 100,000 or any other interval.

Except that a) We have been told that they reap every 50,000 years, The Citadel has been inhabited for centuries, c) Sovereign is a machine, he doesn't wake up randomly.

2) We don't know when the keepers failed. The rachni are convinced that the Reapers indoctrinated them and sent them against the Citadel some 2,000 years ago. That may have been Sovereign's first attempt to wrest control of the citadel away from its current occupants. 

Except that that is speculation.
Sovereign didn't attack the Citadel with the Rachni, while the Rachni could have been used like the geth and they would attack instantly, not start a slow campaign.

For the keepers to fail at that time, the Prothean scientists must have been in cryo for 48,000 years.

[jakal66]

Phaedon wrote...

marshalleck wrote...
1) They don't reap every 50,000 years like clockwork. They reap when their vanguard wakes up and finds organics inhabiting the Citadel, whether that's 25,000, 50,000, or 100,000 or any other interval.

Except that a) We have been told that they reap every 50,000 years, The Citadel has been inhabited for centuries, c) Sovereign is a machine, he doesn't wake up randomly. wrong!

2) We don't know when the keepers failed. The rachni are convinced that the Reapers indoctrinated them and sent them against the Citadel some 2,000 years ago. That may have been Sovereign's first attempt to wrest control of the citadel away from its current occupants. 

Except that that is speculation.
Sovereign didn't attack the Citadel with the Rachni, while the Rachni could have been used like the geth and they would attack instantly, not start a slow campaign.

For the keepers to fail at that time, the Prothean scientists must have been in cryo for 48,000 years.

Somewhere in ME1 it is said that he reamains hidden near and the he "wakes" to check the status of the civilazations until they are ready to be reaped

Modifié par jakal66, 29 avril 2011 - 09:47 .

[Black Raptor]

Phaedon wrote...

1. The Reapers didn't realize that the keepers couldn't be activated until they tried to activate them.

2. They would go reap far earlier. Because they can't have the mass relay unlocked forever, that's not how mass relays work.

3. The Alpha Relay is a hub to minor systems.

4. Shepard him/herself said "Saren is leading the geth to a surprise attack!"

5. Therefore, the Reapers lose the element of surprise.

6. If I remember correctly, nowhere in the game is it stated that the alpha relay links to the Citadel.

7. They would waste tons of resources to get to the Milky Way. 2 years in FTL speeds right before multiple years of reaping and combat can't be good.

1)obviously. Irrelevant anyway.
2)Reap for earlier, sure. But just 2 years earlier? Are they really that desperate that they'd throw it all away for just 2 years after they've been waiting for 50000?
3)No, it can send to 16 other relays further away than the standard relay distance(in addition to normal relays) and links to the citadel
4)and? S/he knows about it and its no longer a suprise. Arrival would've been a surprise had we not already known about the reapers.
5)They'd lose the element of surprise with sovereign's attack, yes. That involved getting Saren, the geth, Benezia in on their existence and would clearly attract a whole load of attention before fruition. Arrival's attack plan would have been a complete and utter surprise. 
6)it does
7)2 years compared to 50000? It doesn't add up. 

Almostfaceman wrote...
Nope, you're operating from hindsight.  Soveriegn didn't think he was going to fail and he wasn't worried about being destroyed.  Millions of years of success breeds arrogance.

So the reapers are just idiots? hmm ok. Too desperate to wait just 2 years (after waiting 50000) that they were too dumb to realise that 1 reaper attacking the citadel was more risky than every single reaper in existence attacking the citadel. 
I don't buy it.

 

[CroGamer002]

For the Rachni I heard somewhere some theory that Sovereign used them not just to weaken alien civilizations but to destroy Rachni as well since they are too big of the threat for Reapers.

[Almostfaceman]

Phaedon wrote...

marshalleck wrote...
1) They don't reap every 50,000 years like clockwork. They reap when their vanguard wakes up and finds organics inhabiting the Citadel, whether that's 25,000, 50,000, or 100,000 or any other interval.

Except that a) We have been told that they reap every 50,000 years, The Citadel has been inhabited for centuries, c) Sovereign is a machine, he doesn't wake up randomly.

2) We don't know when the keepers failed. The rachni are convinced that the Reapers indoctrinated them and sent them against the Citadel some 2,000 years ago. That may have been Sovereign's first attempt to wrest control of the citadel away from its current occupants. 

Except that that is speculation.
Sovereign didn't attack the Citadel with the Rachni, while the Rachni could have been used like the geth and they would attack instantly, not start a slow campaign.

For the keepers to fail at that time, the Prothean scientists must have been in cryo for 48,000 years.

I'm not sure why people keep using the Rachni as some barometer for when the Keeper signal failed.  If folks have failed to notice, the Reapers leave devices planted on planets all over the galaxy with the sole purpose of indoctrination.  All it would have taken for the Rachni to be indoctrinated is for them to stumble upon one of these devices.  No Sovereign plot required.

[JeffZero]

I think if I were a deity, I'd transform the internet temporarily in order to see the Mass Effect fanbase arguing over the deeper implications of Xenogears and Neon Genesis: Evangelion.

[Black Raptor]

Phaedon wrote...

Actually, forget about the source, I call BS.

The Citadel Relay hasn't been activated for 50,000 years. The Alpha Relay, which is used daily, can't link to it.

"Outwardly the Alpha Relay appears to be a standard mass relay, differing little, if at all, from the rest of the mass relays scattered throughout the galaxy. However, it is unusual in its potential range and versatility. Alpha usually sends and receives mass at the range of a normal secondary relay, but if certain controls are adjusted, it becomes powered by an unprecedented amount of dark energy that could send cargo to sixteen other relays and even across a great distance to the Citadel. The Batarian Hegemony has long been aware of Alpha's capabilities, but has covered them up to avoid retaliation by other races who would view the relay as a direct threat to their territories."

Codex entry. 

It doesn't link to the citadel relay. It links to relays around the citadel. That's what I meant. 

Modifié par Black Raptor, 29 avril 2011 - 09:52 .

[jakal66]

perhaps they just couldn't get here earlier man,and it took them the time it took in Arrival...maybe the long way to get to the relay in arrival took the time it did...anyways this discussion is futile since it has already been played this way...can't change it now

[marshalleck]

Phaedon wrote...

marshalleck wrote...
1) They don't reap every 50,000 years like clockwork. They reap when their vanguard wakes up and finds organics inhabiting the Citadel, whether that's 25,000, 50,000, or 100,000 or any other interval.

Except that a) We have been told that they reap every 50,000 years, The Citadel has been inhabited for centuries, c) Sovereign is a machine, he doesn't wake up randomly.

2) We don't know when the keepers failed. The rachni are convinced that the Reapers indoctrinated them and sent them against the Citadel some 2,000 years ago. That may have been Sovereign's first attempt to wrest control of the citadel away from its current occupants. 

Except that that is speculation.
Sovereign didn't attack the Citadel with the Rachni, while the Rachni could have been used like the geth and they would attack instantly, not start a slow campaign.

I think Vigil mentions sovereign periodically awakening to determine the status of organic development. I'd take it's word over EDI's speculation, considering Vigil was programmed by Protheans. Regardless, the interval of the Reaper cycle has nothing to do with this thread. I don't even know why you mentioned it, and I don't intend to indulge it any further. 

Regarding the rachni, it's not speculation at all. You can ask their asari messenger in ME2 why they want to help, and she'll tell you they believe Shepard is fighting the same enemy that "soured" the song of their ancestors and turned them against the galaxy. Now sure, that could be a red herring from the writers but it would be pretty under-handed. I rather believe it's intended to be exactly what it seems to be--part revelation, part foreshadowing. 

For the keepers to fail at that time, the Prothean scientists must have been in cryo for 48,000 years.

WTF are you smoking?  The Reapers wiped out the Protheans. A couple centuries after the Reapers went back to dark space, the Prothean scientists returned to the Citadel and reprogrammed the Keepers. They then presumably died from a lack of food and water. Some ~47,500 years later, the asari discovered the Citadel. 

Modifié par marshalleck, 29 avril 2011 - 09:55 .

[Almostfaceman]

Black Raptor wrote...

So the reapers are just idiots? hmm ok. Too desperate to wait just 2 years (after waiting 50000) that they were too dumb to realise that 1 reaper attacking the citadel was more risky than every single reaper in existence attacking the citadel. 
I don't buy it.

Of course you don't.  Because you already know that they fail.  They, of course, did not consider that they would fail, since they have not failed before.

[Rurik_Niall]

Black Raptor wrote...

So the reapers are just idiots? hmm ok. Too desperate to wait just 2 years (after waiting 50000) that they were too dumb to realise that 1 reaper attacking the citadel was more risky than every single reaper in existence attacking the citadel. 
I don't buy it.

 

Again, they weren't aware of the fact that anything was wrong up until Sovereign was blown to robot hell. Plan A was for Sovereign to simply signal the Keepers and have them open the relay. Plan A failed thanks to the Protheans' last act of defiance. He, as an individual, then chose to attack the Citadel with the help of Saren and the Geth as plan B. He had no reason to expect this plan to fail, any more than a human would expect to be defeated by ants when attempting to plant ant poison around their yard. Shepard proved him wrong and plan B failed. Only after both of those plans failed were the other Reapers made aware that their usual plan had failed, woke up, and started heading for known space.

JeffZero wrote...

I think if I were a deity, I'd transform
the internet temporarily in order to see the Mass Effect fanbase
arguing over the deeper implications of Xenogears and Neon Genesis:
Evangelion.

Evangelion had meaning? Funny, I always thought it was nonsense. <_<

Modifié par Rurik_Niall, 29 avril 2011 - 09:55 .

[jakal66]

Rurik_Niall wrote...

Black Raptor wrote...

So the reapers are just idiots? hmm ok. Too desperate to wait just 2 years (after waiting 50000) that they were too dumb to realise that 1 reaper attacking the citadel was more risky than every single reaper in existence attacking the citadel. 
I don't buy it.

 

Again, they weren't aware of the fact that anything was wrong up until Sovereign was blown to robot hell. Plan A was for Sovereign to simply signal the Keepers and have them open the relay. Plan A failed thanks to the Protheans' last act of defiance. He, as an individual, then chose to attack the Citadel with the help of Saren and the Geth as plan B. He had no reason to expect this plan to fail, any more than a human would expect to be defeated by ants when attempting to plant ant poison around their yard. Shepard proved him wrong and plan B failed. Only after both of those plans failed were the other Reapers made aware that their usual plan had failed, woke up, and started heading for known space.

This is what I think...

[Silmane]

JeffZero wrote...

I think if I were a deity, I'd transform the internet temporarily in order to see the Mass Effect fanbase arguing over the deeper implications of Xenogears and Neon Genesis: Evangelion.

Eva discussions never get old.

[Black Raptor]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Black Raptor wrote...

So the reapers are just idiots? hmm ok. Too desperate to wait just 2 years (after waiting 50000) that they were too dumb to realise that 1 reaper attacking the citadel was more risky than every single reaper in existence attacking the citadel. 
I don't buy it.

Of course you don't.  Because you already know that they fail.  They, of course, did not consider that they would fail, since they have not failed before.

They would know that sovereign's plan was more risky than the plan for arrival. They knew they weren't infailible because the original plan had already failed. So they could've waited 2 years (50000 years remember) and have every single reaper attack at once without anybody knowing about them prior, or go with the elaborate round-about scheme that was ME1. 

And reguarding the rachni, it could just be that the queens found one of the artifacts that  indoctrinated those husks you find on a couple of planets. They don't seem to serve any purpose, apart from making the indoctrinated agressive to all. 
Since Rachni's minds are controlled in part by the queens, indoctrinating them would indoctrinate the entire species. A simple side effect, and not part of the reapers plans. 

[Phaedon]

Black Raptor wrote...
1)obviously. Irrelevant anyway.

Which means that the Reapers couldn't have realized it before the 50,000 years passed. Rendering your theory impossible.

2)Reap for earlier, sure. But just 2 years earlier? Are they really that desperate that they'd throw it all away for just 2 years after they've been waiting for 50000?

Um, that's not what I said. You said, 'Why didn't the Reapers go fix the relay 20,000 years ago?' and that's basically impossible.

3)No, it can send to 16 other relays further away than the standard relay distance(in addition to normal relays) and links to the citadel

And your point is? They lose the element of surprise, and give enough time for the fleet to regroup. You are constantly mistaking the Citadel Relay to a relay near the Citadel system. The Citadel Relay would move the Reapers at the back of the fleet.  And it hasn't been activated for 50,000 years. How exactly does a regular relay that is used frequently link to it?

4)and? S/he knows about it and its no longer a suprise. Arrival would've been a surprise had we not already known about the reapers.

No, the point was that Sovereign wanted to use the advantage of a surprise attack.

5)They'd lose the element of surprise with sovereign's attack, yes. That involved getting Saren, the geth, Benezia in on their existence and would clearly attract a whole load of attention before fruition. Arrival's attack plan would have been a complete and utter surprise.

Except that there  was nothing linking Saren with the Reapers, and without Shepard, a) Benezia wouldn't be linked to Saren, Saren wouldn't have been linked to the geth.

6)it does

Same as I already said.

7)2 years compared to 50000? It doesn't add up.

Errrrr,the Reapers wouldn't be on FTL while reaping. They would waste enough resources on reaping, which even at the low speeds they would be travelling at, is 'expensive'. Why the hell would they waste so many resources on FTL flights. Not just a 5 hour FTL flight.


A 2 year FTL flight. Imagine having to maintain yourself at velocities faster than light. For two years.

--
Right, seeing as there is still no dismissal to my 8 points, I'll go to sleep and return tomorrow. G'night.

[JeffZero]

Silmane wrote...

JeffZero wrote...

I think if I were a deity, I'd transform the internet temporarily in order to see the Mass Effect fanbase arguing over the deeper implications of Xenogears and Neon Genesis: Evangelion.

Eva discussions never get old.

They really don't.

[jakal66]

Because apparently they didn't kinow how bad it was going untill they blew up soverign...remember Sovereign tried to fix this himself he got cocky and messed up

[marshalleck]

Phaedon wrote...

A 2 year FTL flight. Imagine having to maintain yourself at velocities faster than light. For two years.

In the vacuum of space? With technology that reduces mass to near zero? 

Remember that gunnery seargeant on the Citadel? Remember what he says about Sir Isaac Newton?