95 réponses à ce sujet

[Black Raptor]

jakal66 wrote...

perhaps they just couldn't get here earlier man,and it took them the time it took in Arrival...maybe the long way to get to the relay in arrival took the time it did...anyways this discussion is futile since it has already been played this way...can't change it now

You can change it. I can think of many scenarios which can fix the plot hole, although none of them have any evidence. 
Maybe the reapers weren't 2 days away, and this was all just a plot by an indoctrinated Hackett to get Shepard out of the way, either by indoctrination by Object Rho, or by arrest for blowing up a Batarien system. 

Perhaps the reapers 2 days away from Alpha was just an advanced scout fleet of 5 or 6 reapers. A back up plan if the keepers and sovereign failed, to try and get to the alpha relay and attack the citadel and open it for the real fleet. This scout fleet was destroyed when the relay blew up.

[Almostfaceman]

Black Raptor wrote...

They would know that sovereign's plan was more risky than the plan for arrival.

Going by what the Reapers say, they don't consider us risky.  At all. Like, not even a little bit.

And reguarding the rachni, it could just be that the queens found one of the artifacts that  indoctrinated those husks you find on a couple of planets. They don't seem to serve any purpose, apart from making the indoctrinated agressive to all. 
Since Rachni's minds are controlled in part by the queens, indoctrinating them would indoctrinate the entire species. A simple side effect, and not part of the reapers plans. 

Yes, I said that and agree.

[marshalleck]

Black Raptor wrote...

jakal66 wrote...

perhaps they just couldn't get here earlier man,and it took them the time it took in Arrival...maybe the long way to get to the relay in arrival took the time it did...anyways this discussion is futile since it has already been played this way...can't change it now

You can change it. I can think of many scenarios which can fix the plot hole, although none of them have any evidence. 
Maybe the reapers weren't 2 days away, and this was all just a plot by an indoctrinated Hackett to get Shepard out of the way, either by indoctrination by Object Rho, or by arrest for blowing up a Batarien system. 

Perhaps the reapers 2 days away from Alpha was just an advanced scout fleet of 5 or 6 reapers. A back up plan if the keepers and sovereign failed, to try and get to the alpha relay and attack the citadel and open it for the real fleet. This scout fleet was destroyed when the relay blew up.

It could easily be fixed. We saw in Arrival that when a relay explodes, it does so with the force of a supernova. So what if the inverse is true; to create a mass relay, you have to somehow collapse a star in on itself in the process? The plot thread already exists with Haestrom and the heretic geth. I don't know why we need this "the reapers can just fly back whenever they want" stupidity. Heck, you could even tie in that retarded Space Terminator the Collectors were building--say the Reapers needed it to construct their new dark space relay. Now you could have their return strategy AND an explanation for the Collectors all neatly tied up.

Instead, we have this flying in from dark space nonsense and Harbinger jumping the gun on a human-reaper science project. Oh well, I guess they can't be villains without being tossed the idiot ball. 

Modifié par marshalleck, 29 avril 2011 - 10:10 .

[Rurik_Niall]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Going by what the Reapers say, they don't consider us risky.  At all. Like, not even a little bit.

Indeed. Now Shepard on the other hand, Shepard makes them ****** their robotic eldritch abomination pants, but the rest of the galaxy are just insects.

[Black Raptor]

Phaedon wrote...


Which means that the Reapers couldn't have realized it before the 50,000 years passed. Rendering your theory impossible.

Um, that's not what I said. You said, 'Why didn't the Reapers go fix the relay 20,000 years ago?' and that's basically impossible.

And your point is? They lose the element of surprise, and give enough time for the fleet to regroup. You are constantly mistaking the Citadel Relay to a relay near the Citadel system. The Citadel Relay would move the Reapers at the back of the fleet.  And it hasn't been activated for 50,000 years. How exactly does a regular relay that is used frequently link to it?

No, the point was that Sovereign wanted to use the advantage of a surprise attack.

Except that there  was nothing linking Saren with the Reapers, and without Shepard, a) Benezia wouldn't be linked to Saren, Saren wouldn't have been linked to the geth.

6)it does

Same as I already said.

7)2 years compared to 50000? It doesn't add up.

Errrrr,the Reapers wouldn't be on FTL while reaping. They would waste enough resources on reaping, which even at the low speeds they would be travelling at, is 'expensive'. Why the hell would they waste so many resources on FTL flights. Not just a 5 hour FTL flight.
A 2 year FTL flight. Imagine having to maintain yourself at velocities faster than light. For two years.

--
Right, seeing as there is still no dismissal to my 8 points, I'll go to sleep and return tomorrow. G'night.

sigh
1)what theory? Sovereign tries to activate the citadel relay 50000 years after the Protheans went extinct and found the keepers weren't responding. This is an in game fact. That is what happened in the ME universe.

2)Fix what relay? The citadel relay? They didn't know it wasn't going to work 50000 years ago. They hadn't tried to open then. I never said anything about opening any relays 20000 years ago. What are you on about?

3)Lose the element of surprise? How? They'd simply be big-ass spaceships. Nobody would know who or what they were, and if they waited until they jumped to the citadel, we wouldn't even know if they were hostile.
How they would lose the element of surprise? Go and do what they did in ME1. 
The citadel relay links to darkspace. It's how the reapers normally would get in. If they get in by flying, they wouldn't need the citadel relay, and could get to the citadel the same way everyone else does. The only thing they'd need to do there would be kill the leaders and get census data and close down the relays for everyone but themselves. 
I'm not confusing the relay hub in the widow nebula with the secret citadel relay. You're confusing yourself as it wouldn't matter anyway if they were already at the citadel.

4) He failed that when he attacked Eden Prime. The reapers going to the alpha relay would have been a surprise. 

5) Go play ME1 again. 

6)yes, same as i said

7) when did I say they spent 50000 years on FTL reaping? I didn't. I said they had already waited 50000 years, so what is waiting 2 more going to be to them? And you're just speculating about how hard it is to FTL for 2 years. There is no way you can know how detrimental it is to their ability to reap, although it is a possible solution which I have already considered. 

[Ghost Warrior]

Sometimes Mass Effect is a game where you just have to go with it because if you start thinking about it - bang.

So here are some major plot holes and my opinion about them.Feel free to correct me

1.So according to Vigil,last time when the Reapers tried to come and harvest the galaxy through Citadel relay,keepers ignored Sovereign's signal because of that Prothean scientists. So why didn't Reapers went for Alpha relay then?

2.One possible explanation for first^ is that they were in no hurry so they waited for Sovereign to gather allies and retake Citadel when ready.Ok,I can buy that. But once Sovereign got Saren on his side,why didn't Saren(a Spectre) just walk into the Citadel and activated the relay himself,Reapers came and there you have the end of the life as we know it.

If you ignore that,everything is perfectly clear - Reapers wanted to come through Citadel relay with full resources,retake Citadel and doing so they already won(head of the snake and everything). But Sovereign failed so they had to come to Bahak system,using FTL.From there they could just go directly to the Citadel and they won again. But that way they would probably have more casualties,so...

[Black Raptor]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Black Raptor wrote...

They would know that sovereign's plan was more risky than the plan for arrival.

Going by what the Reapers say, they don't consider us risky.  At all. Like, not even a little bit.

They already know that their plans can be foiled. The Protheans did that with the keepers. Thus they are in a situation they probably haven't been in for a very long time, if ever. This could be the first time they've faced the posibility of not being to use the citadel relay so you'd think they'd use the best plan first (Arrival) rather than sovereign's attack if they are within flying distance. 
The only way ME1's story makes sense is if the reapers HAVE to use the citadel relay to get in, and that any other posibility of getting in is detrimental to their ability to reap for whatever reason. 

[Black Raptor]

Ghost Warrior wrote...

Sometimes Mass Effect is a game where you just have to go with it because if you start thinking about it - bang.

So here are some major plot holes and my opinion about them.Feel free to correct me

1.So according to Vigil,last time when the Reapers tried to come and harvest the galaxy through Citadel relay,keepers ignored Sovereign's signal because of that Prothean scientists. So why didn't Reapers went for Alpha relay then?

2.One possible explanation for first^ is that they were in no hurry so they waited for Sovereign to gather allies and retake Citadel when ready.Ok,I can buy that. But once Sovereign got Saren on his side,why didn't Saren(a Spectre) just walk into the Citadel and activated the relay himself,Reapers came and there you have the end of the life as we know it.

If you ignore that,everything is perfectly clear - Reapers wanted to come through Citadel relay with full resources,retake Citadel and doing so they already won(head of the snake and everything). But Sovereign failed so they had to come to Bahak system,using FTL.From there they could just go directly to the Citadel and they won again. But that way they would probably have more casualties,so...

This is basically the point I've been making the entire time. You just listed the plot hole I said in OP

[Rurik_Niall]

Knowing that someone can stop your remote control from working and thinking that they can destroy you is a rather large jump in logic.

[Black Raptor]

Rurik_Niall wrote...

Knowing that someone can stop your remote control from working and thinking that they can destroy you is a rather large jump in logic.

As was yours when you insinuated that is in any way what I was getting at. 

The Reapers find out the Keepers don't respond and they are potentially in a situation they've never been in before. Either they are idiots who think there is no possiblity whatsoever that anything can go wrong even though it just did with the keepers, or they'd pick the best plan B.

My question is, why is Sovereign attacking the citadel by himself and a whole load of geth, a better plan to the Reapers flying to the Alpha relay and starting from there? 

Modifié par Black Raptor, 29 avril 2011 - 10:29 .

[Rurik_Niall]

Because Sovereign isn't that bright and had no reason to think his plan would fail. As far as he was concerned he was dealing with insects, they're an annoyance perhaps but not something he'd expect to be able to actually stop him.

[marshalleck]

Rurik_Niall wrote...

Because Sovereign isn't that bright and had no reason to think his plan would fail. As far as he was concerned he was dealing with insects, they're an annoyance perhaps but not something he'd expect to be able to actually stop him.

Obviously you've never tried to remove a hornet or wasp nest

They will kick your ass if you're not careful

[Black Raptor]

Rurik_Niall wrote...

Because Sovereign isn't that bright and had no reason to think his plan would fail. As far as he was concerned he was dealing with insects, they're an annoyance perhaps but not something he'd expect to be able to actually stop him.

I'm simply looking for a satisfactory solution to the Arrival plot hole. There are many I can think of, but none of them have any evidence other than fixing the hole. Mere hypotheses. 

However, I don't consider the Reapers being dumb satisfactory. They built the citadel and the mass relays after all. I'd like to think they were cabable of analysing most scenarios and picking the best one. I want to know why ME1 was a better solution than Arrival. 

[Rurik_Niall]

You're ignoring one simple fact, you have to discard Shepard. If Shepard hadn't been involved both of those plans would have succeeded. Neither plan was a bad plan on their own, but then Shepard comes into the equation and they go completely pear shaped.

[jakal66]

Im not sure they built everything,they have been harvesting civilizations for eons so perhaps much of their tech is actually from harvested civilizations,let them do all the work and then eliminate them and reap the benefits and take credit for them

[Ghost Warrior]

Another thing. Isn't it convenient how dr. Kenson found that artifact that's been there for thousands of years just a couple of days before Reapers' arrival.Just in time for Shepard to jump in and save the galaxy once more. I mean really...

[jakal66]

Ghost Warrior wrote...

Another thing. Isn't it convenient how dr. Kenson found that artifact that's been there for thousands of years just a couple of days before Reapers' arrival.Just in time for Shepard to jump in and save the galaxy once more. I mean really...

well dude it's a video game not a best selling novel...don't be so knit picky!

[Black Raptor]

Rurik_Niall wrote...

You're ignoring one simple fact, you have to discard Shepard. If Shepard hadn't been involved both of those plans would have succeeded. Neither plan was a bad plan on their own, but then Shepard comes into the equation and they go completely pear shaped.

Arrival would have worked, Shepard or no Shepard had ME1 never happened. Regardless of whether or not s/he became a bad ass spectre without Saren and Sovereign, the threat of the reapers would have never been known until they had jumped through the Alpha relay. 

Unless there is something else to the Alpha relay plan...


I think that travelling through Darkspace to get to the Alpha relay in just 2 years used a lot of their power and therefore affects their ability to reap properly. A scenario they would want to avoid at all costs. Thus they would try everything else first. With the Alpha relay gone, they have to fly even further possibly explaining how we'd be able to beat them all in ME3. 

This fixes the plot hole but doesn't explain why you see all the reapers starting up at the end of the main ME2 story. It's also just pure speculation with no real evidence to back it up other than being plausible.

My other theory is that the reapers near the Alpha relay was an advanced fleet that basically proceed to use the alpha relay to get to the citadel and open that relay and get the rest of the reapers in. This theory also entails the disadvantages of flying 2 years FTL and the reapers would want to avoid it as it would mean a few reapers would be weakened. Thus they try sovereign first.
This advanced fleet gets destroyed by the alpha relay explosion possibly and the reapers have to find yet another way in.

This theory involves more assumptions but allows for the main reaper fleet to be seen powering up at the end of ME2 and means the Reapers eventual invasion involves something less anticlimactic than simply flying in. 

[Black Raptor]

Ghost Warrior wrote...

Another thing. Isn't it convenient how dr. Kenson found that artifact that's been there for thousands of years just a couple of days before Reapers' arrival.Just in time for Shepard to jump in and save the galaxy once more. I mean really...

It wouldn't of started counting down until sovereign died. So it was unimportant until 2 years before ME2. We don't know exactly how long ago she found it though. 

[Rurik_Niall]

And without Shepard their plan A would have succeeded. Everyone else was too busy fighting the Geth who they thought were the real threat, Saren would have opened the Citadel relay and allowed the other Reapers in, the combined forces of the Citadel races and the Alliance barely managed to destroy one Reaper, the combined forces of every other Reaper and the Geth would have quickly ended that battle. However it failed purely because Shepard was there to stop Saren, allowing the others to destroy Sovereign and drive off the remaining Geth.

[Ghost Warrior]

@ Black Raptor
I like your theory about advanced fleet but you are missing something.Whatever you do,Reapers don't start up until Collector base is destroyed.So if you play Arrival before SM it means that even if that advanced fleet failed,they were still counting on Collectors and human Reaper (geth and Sovereign 2.0). But if you play Arrival after SM,they don't wait to see whether their advanced fleet will succed and they start up and plot a course for Milky Way. Why?

EDIT:I've been thinking about ME plot holes (yeah,I'm bored) and I realized another thing: how did the Reapers know that Sovereign failed? Vigil said that Sovereign remains dormant so nobody finds him but wakes up from time to time to check out the situation and lets his pals in if necessary.So when he failed to activate the Citadel relay,how did the Reapers find out about that?


That said,here is something from ME2: I used to think that they were building human Reaper to join them after they eradicate all life in the galaxy once more but then I remembered Harbringer's words during my escape from Collector base - "You've changed nothing,human.We will find another way". So was that plan B or plan C?


Now to put it all together:

1.Sovereign tries to signal the keepers to activate the Citadel relay but they don't respond.Reapers trapped in dark space,to quote Vigil.

2.Sovereign starts finding allies and finds Saren and the geth.Instead of Saren walking into Citadel tower and simply doing it easily all by himself,he attacks the Citadel with Sovereign and the geth. And why were they after beacon on Eden Prime anyway,they just exposed themselves.

3.Sovereign fails again.Somehow the Reapers find out about that.They send the Collectors after Shepard (and how did they know about him) and begin with construction of their new vanguard,human Reaper. So they are basically repeating the same mistake again (Sovereign obviously failed big time).

4.Shepard destroys the Collectors and human Reaper.Now the Reapers have to do it the hard way,using FTL to reach Alpha relay.And they do,in matter of days or weeks (if you play Arrival post-SM)

5.Shepard destroys Alpha relay and now comes their worst-case scenario,going through multiple star systems to reach Citadel.


So that's it. I don't know what happens if you play Arrival before SM,only then nothing makes sense. There are other thing I noticed just now,like why didn't Reapers wait a few decades for Shepard to die and everyone to forget about them,thinking Shep was just crazy?

Ok,I'm off to bed now,looking forward to your answers in the morning.

Modifié par Ghost Warrior, 30 avril 2011 - 12:12 .

[Urdnot Orrad]

Black Raptor wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Black Raptor wrote...

They would know that sovereign's plan was more risky than the plan for arrival.

Going by what the Reapers say, they don't consider us risky.  At all. Like, not even a little bit.

They already know that their plans can be foiled. The Protheans did that with the keepers. Thus they are in a situation they probably haven't been in for a very long time, if ever. This could be the first time they've faced the posibility of not being to use the citadel relay so you'd think they'd use the best plan first (Arrival) rather than sovereign's attack if they are within flying distance. 
The only way ME1's story makes sense is if the reapers HAVE to use the citadel relay to get in, and that any other posibility of getting in is detrimental to their ability to reap for whatever reason. 

From what I can tell, Sovereign knew. That doesn't mean that the entire Reaper fleet knew at the same time. When you ask "Well why didn't he just tell them?" you're looking to far into it. Maybe he couldn't. Maybe they didn't want to be bothered. Maybe he simply didn't want to and wanted to do the job himself. Who knows? We certainly don't, and that's why we should wait for ME3 to clear all this up instead of arguing. Christ.

[Black Raptor]

Urdnot Orrad wrote...

Black Raptor wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Black Raptor wrote...

They would know that sovereign's plan was more risky than the plan for arrival.

Going by what the Reapers say, they don't consider us risky.  At all. Like, not even a little bit.

They already know that their plans can be foiled. The Protheans did that with the keepers. Thus they are in a situation they probably haven't been in for a very long time, if ever. This could be the first time they've faced the posibility of not being to use the citadel relay so you'd think they'd use the best plan first (Arrival) rather than sovereign's attack if they are within flying distance. 
The only way ME1's story makes sense is if the reapers HAVE to use the citadel relay to get in, and that any other posibility of getting in is detrimental to their ability to reap for whatever reason. 

From what I can tell, Sovereign knew. That doesn't mean that the entire Reaper fleet knew at the same time. When you ask "Well why didn't he just tell them?" you're looking to far into it. Maybe he couldn't. Maybe they didn't want to be bothered. Maybe he simply didn't want to and wanted to do the job himself. Who knows? We certainly don't, and that's why we should wait for ME3 to clear all this up instead of arguing. Christ.

Erm, the Reapers control the collectors. They can speak to you directly when you're fighting them. Harbinger speaks to YOU at the end of arrival. I'm pretty sure they could of gotten into contact with Sovereign somehow in the last 50000 years. 

[Urdnot Orrad]

Black Raptor wrote...

Urdnot Orrad wrote...

Black Raptor wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Black Raptor wrote...

They would know that sovereign's plan was more risky than the plan for arrival.

Going by what the Reapers say, they don't consider us risky.  At all. Like, not even a little bit.

They already know that their plans can be foiled. The Protheans did that with the keepers. Thus they are in a situation they probably haven't been in for a very long time, if ever. This could be the first time they've faced the posibility of not being to use the citadel relay so you'd think they'd use the best plan first (Arrival) rather than sovereign's attack if they are within flying distance. 
The only way ME1's story makes sense is if the reapers HAVE to use the citadel relay to get in, and that any other posibility of getting in is detrimental to their ability to reap for whatever reason. 

From what I can tell, Sovereign knew. That doesn't mean that the entire Reaper fleet knew at the same time. When you ask "Well why didn't he just tell them?" you're looking to far into it. Maybe he couldn't. Maybe they didn't want to be bothered. Maybe he simply didn't want to and wanted to do the job himself. Who knows? We certainly don't, and that's why we should wait for ME3 to clear all this up instead of arguing. Christ.

Erm, the Reapers control the collectors. They can speak to you directly when you're fighting them. Harbinger speaks to YOU at the end of arrival. I'm pretty sure they could of gotten into contact with Sovereign somehow in the last 50000 years. 

So far, the only Reaper that we know of that can actually control the Collectors is Harbinger, and you speak to Harbinger at the end of Arrival through a holographic interface, likely directly linked TO him... however, that cannot be confirmed.

My point was that Sovereign didn't contact the fleet, not the other way around.

[Black Raptor]

Ghost Warrior wrote...
@ Black Raptor
I like your theory about advanced fleet but you are missing something.Whatever you do,Reapers don't start up until Collector base is destroyed.So if you play Arrival before SM it means that even if that advanced fleet failed,they were still counting on Collectors and human Reaper (geth and Sovereign 2.0). But if you play Arrival after SM,they don't wait to see whether their advanced fleet will succed and they start up and plot a course for Milky Way. Why?

It's not really a course towards the Milky Way, just more of an activation sequence. It could be now they have gone too long without reaping and are starting up once they see their newest member died already. Just getting prepared. 

Ghost Warrior wrote...
EDIT:I've been thinking about ME plot holes (yeah,I'm bored) and I realized another thing: how did the Reapers know that Sovereign failed? Vigil said that Sovereign remains dormant so nobody finds him but wakes up from time to time to check out the situation and lets his pals in if necessary.So when he failed to activate the Citadel relay,how did the Reapers find out about that?

I think its fair to say the Reapers have got intergalactic communication nailed down. Sovereign told them. 
The reapers also knew Sovereign died, that it was Shepard who killed it, and that s/he is human and begin targetting them.
 

Ghost Warrior wrote...
That said,here is something from ME2: I used to think that they were building human Reaper to join them after they eradicate all life in the galaxy once more but then I remembered Harbringer's words during my escape from Collector base - "You've changed nothing,human.We will find another way". So was that plan B or plan C?

The collectors were Protheans. I'm assuming the "collector base" was there before the Protheans existed and that is where the Reapers build their newest members. The Protheans for some reason were incompatible and couldn't be made into reapers so they were just kept as slaves. Humans kill a reaper so the reapers assume we are the best candidate for their next reaper. Thus they begin construction with the help of their Prothean slaves to prepare. The human-reaper needs a lot more humans (they say there are too many pods for the humans in the Terminus and are going to target Earth) and the collectors aren't strong enough to attack Citadel space. (only a few members left. Weren't prepared for an assault etc)   
 

Ghost Warrior wrote...
So that's it. I don't know what happens if you play Arrival before SM,only then nothing makes sense. There are other thing I noticed just now,like why didn't Reapers wait a few decades for Shepard to die and everyone to forget about them,thinking Shep was just crazy?

Ok,I'm off to bed now,looking forward to your answers in the morning.

We don't know how desperate the Reapers are. We don't know how long ago Sovereign found out the keepers weren't obeying the signal. They could be getting hungry. Thus perhaps a couple of years do matter at this point and they are trying everything.