95 réponses à ce sujet

[atheelogos]

XyleJKH wrote...

Ok bud, youre on to something. They probably have been on the move since the rachni war.

Yes that was my thought as well.

[george martin]

Black Raptor wrote...

"Why don't the reapers just fly in?"

A common question posted by noobs and was easily explained away until Arrival came out.
Now suddenly it is revealed that the Reapers are 2 days away from simply flying to the alpha relay, and the question is valid. Why don't they?

The whole point of ME1 was to stop Sovereign opening the Citadel relay as that was the only way the reapers were going to get in. But if the reapers were within flying distance to the Alpha reley, why didn't they just do that instead? Why attack the Citadel with a single Reaper when they could have done it with all of them? 

The main way the Reapers were supposed to get in was have the keepers open the relay. That failed however long ago (possibly before the Rachni wars which puts it 2000 years ago at least) so naturally they would move on to plan B. Why was that plan B Sovereign? Surely they would've known getting so many individuals involved with an elaborate plot would mean that their existence would be let out of the bag? Even though their first plan had failed, nobody knew it except them. If their plan B had been a little more subtle, they would've gotten in. Just fly to the Alpha relay, jump to the Citadel, kill the council, get all the census data, reprogram the keepers, close all the relays off to everyone but themselves and proceed with reapage. There would have been nobody to stop them because nobody would've known they existed.

This to me seems like an enormous plot hole. 
What have I missed or what scenario do you use to remedy this? 

It definitely could use more explaining that's for sure. As far as them getting the census data lol they sound like politicians.

[george martin]

Ghost Warrior wrote...

Sometimes Mass Effect is a game where you just have to go with it because if you start thinking about it - bang.

So here are some major plot holes and my opinion about them.Feel free to correct me

1.So according to Vigil,last time when the Reapers tried to come and harvest the galaxy through Citadel relay,keepers ignored Sovereign's signal because of that Prothean scientists. So why didn't Reapers went for Alpha relay then?

2.One possible explanation for first^ is that they were in no hurry so they waited for Sovereign to gather allies and retake Citadel when ready.Ok,I can buy that. But once Sovereign got Saren on his side,why didn't Saren(a Spectre) just walk into the Citadel and activated the relay himself,Reapers came and there you have the end of the life as we know it.

If you ignore that,everything is perfectly clear - Reapers wanted to come through Citadel relay with full resources,retake Citadel and doing so they already won(head of the snake and everything). But Sovereign failed so they had to come to Bahak system,using FTL.From there they could just go directly to the Citadel and they won again. But that way they would probably have more casualties,so...

Vigil is referring to the present time, during the Prothean age the Reapers did use the Citadel and wiped out the Protheans. It's in Shepard's visions, the remaining Prothean scientists on Ilos were the ones who reprogrammed the keepers and used the conduit to get to the Citadel to do this. When Sovereign, 50k years later give or take a hundred years or so tried to remotely activate the Citadel it failed, who knows exactly when he tried but it was during the present timeline. When he realized this he then went about trying to figure out what the hell happened. Hence he got the geth and Saren on his side.

[george martin]

Black Raptor wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Black Raptor wrote...

They would know that sovereign's plan was more risky than the plan for arrival.

Going by what the Reapers say, they don't consider us risky.  At all. Like, not even a little bit.

They already know that their plans can be foiled. The Protheans did that with the keepers. Thus they are in a situation they probably haven't been in for a very long time, if ever. This could be the first time they've faced the posibility of not being to use the citadel relay so you'd think they'd use the best plan first (Arrival) rather than sovereign's attack if they are within flying distance. 
The only way ME1's story makes sense is if the reapers HAVE to use the citadel relay to get in, and that any other posibility of getting in is detrimental to their ability to reap for whatever reason. 

We don't know exactly when Sovereign tried to remotely activate the Citadel and it failed, it could have been in the past few hundred years who knows. I'm sure the Reapers in the middle of Timbuktu knew something was wrong and they might have had some way to communicate with Sovereign. ME1 storyline is very solid over all, it's ME2 that was very weak. Arrival is a bit confusing because it lacks a whole lot of explanation, something we'll probably get in ME3 I'm hoping.

[george martin]

Ghost Warrior wrote...

Sometimes Mass Effect is a game where you just have to go with it because if you start thinking about it - bang.

So here are some major plot holes and my opinion about them.Feel free to correct me

1.So according to Vigil,last time when the Reapers tried to come and harvest the galaxy through Citadel relay,keepers ignored Sovereign's signal because of that Prothean scientists. So why didn't Reapers went for Alpha relay then?

2.One possible explanation for first^ is that they were in no hurry so they waited for Sovereign to gather allies and retake Citadel when ready.Ok,I can buy that. But once Sovereign got Saren on his side,why didn't Saren(a Spectre) just walk into the Citadel and activated the relay himself,Reapers came and there you have the end of the life as we know it.

If you ignore that,everything is perfectly clear - Reapers wanted to come through Citadel relay with full resources,retake Citadel and doing so they already won(head of the snake and everything). But Sovereign failed so they had to come to Bahak system,using FTL.From there they could just go directly to the Citadel and they won again. But that way they would probably have more casualties,so...

Saren could have walsed on in sure, but Sovereign still would have
needed to manually activate the Citadel, the only thing Saren did was keep the Citadel open so he could get in then make sure it's closed off. Saren couldn't acivate the Citadel Relay by himself and I don't think that security and
the Council would have allowed him to keep the Citadel open, or closed (one guy
couldn't do it alone) and I'm sure that Sovereign didn't want to
confront a massive fleet all by himself. He needed the geth as cannon
fodder. Plus, they needed to know why the keepers didn't respond and
what the conduit is, If the Reapers didn't figure out what the current
problem was they risk the same thing happening again.

[deuce985]

Nice, gotta buy this DLC to get prepared :

[Destroy Raiden_]

We all know the relays connect to one another and sometimes that connection can be quite a long ways off. It’s possible the Alpha arrival relay can connect to a previously unknown relay. In ME it was explained that both dormant (yet to be turned back on) and unknown relays existed in the universe.

So one of two scenarios can explain why they didn’t just dial up the arrival relay sooner 1 the relay that they’re using to connect to the arrival one was dormant and they were going to turn it on it’s possible this relay like the citidel’s is a one way relay.

Or it too is encoded with an IFF that they know of and so no connection will be made until that IFF is dialed up for their unknown relay point. Kind of like how the citadel won’t turn on unless it is dialed correctly and Saren had to go manually do that in order for it to function.

Didn’t I hear a rumor in game that they thought a second black citadel existed? What if zero relay that connects to alpha arrival is that relay? Does anyone thing the citadel could act like a star gate in the fact that you just need to dial the right code for it to link to any other gate/relay? So say the citadel gets turned on and it can connect to say Earth only but the reapers want to go to Illium so they put in the code and the citadel will reroute itself to aim for the Illium relay so you can latterly go anywhere so long as you know the code book. I’m wondering if zero relay can do the same?

Also on a side note to Op's suggestion on why create so much chaos instead of killing the council off first. I'm starting to think the reapers are lying when they say they're so massive in size and strength I mean they sure go through a lot of effort to wipe people off the map before striking them suggesting they've got a smaller number then they're letting on. When the Mayan were being taken over by the Spanish this tactic was used as well get the ones mad at the other Mayan, ect and have them aid you in taking them down so when the actual force shows up then there really isnt' much of a fight left to have.

[george martin]

Destroy Raiden wrote...

We all know the relays connect to one another and sometimes that connection can be quite a long ways off. It’s possible the Alpha arrival relay can connect to a previously unknown relay. In ME it was explained that both dormant (yet to be turned back on) and unknown relays existed in the universe.

So one of two scenarios can explain why they didn’t just dial up the arrival relay sooner 1 the relay that they’re using to connect to the arrival one was dormant and they were going to turn it on it’s possible this relay like the citidel’s is a one way relay.

Or it too is encoded with an IFF that they know of and so no connection will be made until that IFF is dialed up for their unknown relay point. Kind of like how the citadel won’t turn on unless it is dialed correctly and Saren had to go manually do that in order for it to function.

Didn’t I hear a rumor in game that they thought a second black citadel existed? What if zero relay that connects to alpha arrival is that relay? Does anyone thing the citadel could act like a star gate in the fact that you just need to dial the right code for it to link to any other gate/relay? So say the citadel gets turned on and it can connect to say Earth only but the reapers want to go to Illium so they put in the code and the citadel will reroute itself to aim for the Illium relay so you can latterly go anywhere so long as you know the code book. I’m wondering if zero relay can do the same?

Also on a side note to Op's suggestion on why create so much chaos instead of killing the council off first. I'm starting to think the reapers are lying when they say they're so massive in size and strength I mean they sure go through a lot of effort to wipe people off the map before striking them suggesting they've got a smaller number then they're letting on. When the Mayan were being taken over by the Spanish this tactic was used as well get the ones mad at the other Mayan, ect and have them aid you in taking them down so when the actual force shows up then there really isnt' much of a fight left to have.

If Sovereign is a good example of how powerful the Reapers are, I don't think they'd need a big fleet.

[Ghost Warrior]

I think Sovereign is one of the most powerful ones,that's why he was chosen to stay as their vanguard in the first place. But if all of them are as powerful as he was,I don't see how we can win in ME3.

[Black Raptor]

Destroy Raiden wrote...

We all know the relays connect to one another and sometimes that connection can be quite a long ways off. It’s possible the Alpha arrival relay can connect to a previously unknown relay. In ME it was explained that both dormant (yet to be turned back on) and unknown relays existed in the universe.

So one of two scenarios can explain why they didn’t just dial up the arrival relay sooner 1 the relay that they’re using to connect to the arrival one was dormant and they were going to turn it on it’s possible this relay like the citidel’s is a one way relay.

It's implied that they are flying to the Alpha Relay under FTL, not with another Mass Relay. The Citadel Relay is used to get back to Dark Space so it isn't 1 way. 

Destroy Raiden wrote...
Or it too is encoded with an IFF that they know of and so no connection will be made until that IFF is dialed up for their unknown relay point. Kind of like how the citadel won’t turn on unless it is dialed correctly and Saren had to go manually do that in order for it to function.

It wasn't Saren opening the Relay, it was Sovereign. Saren was there to help Sovereign get in.(keep the arms open then close them afterwards and deactivate the citadel's own defences)

Destroy Raiden wrote...
Didn’t I hear a rumor in game that they thought a second black citadel existed? What if zero relay that connects to alpha arrival is that relay? Does anyone thing the citadel could act like a star gate in the fact that you just need to dial the right code for it to link to any other gate/relay? So say the citadel gets turned on and it can connect to say Earth only but the reapers want to go to Illium so they put in the code and the citadel will reroute itself to aim for the Illium relay so you can latterly go anywhere so long as you know the code book. I’m wondering if zero relay can do the same? 

Didn't hear anything about other Citadels. The Relay in the Citadel links to Dark Space. The Reapers use it to get into the galaxy. Afterwards they just use the other relays to get about. The Citadel IS a relay, but its surrounded by lots and lots of smaller relays which every species knows about and uses to get where they want to go. The Citadel can turn these to be Reaper only, but nobody knows that but you. 

Destroy Raiden wrote...
Also on a side note to Op's suggestion on why create so much chaos instead of killing the council off first. I'm starting to think the reapers are lying when they say they're so massive in size and strength I mean they sure go through a lot of effort to wipe people off the map before striking them suggesting they've got a smaller number then they're letting on. When the Mayan were being taken over by the Spanish this tactic was used as well get the ones mad at the other Mayan, ect and have them aid you in taking them down so when the actual force shows up then there really isnt' much of a fight left to have.

They seem to have quite a few when you see them at the end of ME2. And your Spanish theory wouldn't always work. Take the Protheans for example. The galaxy only had them as an intelligent species for that cycle. Nobody else. Perhaps they were relatively peaceful and would never fight themselves. 

[tito01]

ok this is how it went down, sovereign just wanted to show off. seriously

(at reaper hang out)

reaper1: Yo sovereign you cant solo the citadel dog they got those humans now!

soverign: nah f that im going in there and killing EVERYBODY!

reaper2: just wait 2 more years! thats when we leave!

soverign: no..bye ( jumps the relay)

reaper1: what a noob. 5 systems says he fails!

reaper3: haha

(soverign meets shepard)

soverign dies..


(back at reaper hangout)

reaper2: yo soverign got owned by human!

reaper1: lol

reaper3: lol

reaper4: proceed as planned.

[lolwut666]

Ghost Warrior wrote...

I think Sovereign is one of the most powerful ones,that's why he was chosen to stay as their vanguard in the first place. But if all of them are as powerful as he was,I don't see how we can win in ME3.

Seems that way. Not only because of that, but because of his size.

It seems like the Reapers' size can vary between 800 m or so to a couple of kilometers, and Sovereign was 3 km long, I reckon.

Modifié par lolwut666, 30 avril 2011 - 11:21 .

[Black Raptor]

Ok, hows about this
The Reapers never were 2 days away from the Alpha relay. Object Rho had indoctrinated Kenson and it was just a ploy to get Shepard out of the way. This way, they convince Shepard to destroy a system for no reason and know this will get him/her in trouble. It sort of fixes the plot hole and could explain why Object Rho and the Alpha relay were found and destroyed "just in time".

[Ghost Warrior]

Black Raptor wrote...

Ok, hows about this
The Reapers never were 2 days away from the Alpha relay. Object Rho had indoctrinated Kenson and it was just a ploy to get Shepard out of the way. This way, they convince Shepard to destroy a system for no reason and know this will get him/her in trouble. It sort of fixes the plot hole and could explain why Object Rho and the Alpha relay were found and destroyed "just in time".

Nice idea. That would definitely explain a lot of things and make the Reapers seem more intelligent. But I think Kenson found real evidence that Alpha relay links directly to Citadel,so the Reapers would actually be ruining their own plan.

[Black Raptor]

Ghost Warrior wrote...

Black Raptor wrote...

Ok, hows about this
The Reapers never were 2 days away from the Alpha relay. Object Rho had indoctrinated Kenson and it was just a ploy to get Shepard out of the way. This way, they convince Shepard to destroy a system for no reason and know this will get him/her in trouble. It sort of fixes the plot hole and could explain why Object Rho and the Alpha relay were found and destroyed "just in time".

Nice idea. That would definitely explain a lot of things and make the Reapers seem more intelligent. But I think Kenson found real evidence that Alpha relay links directly to Citadel,so the Reapers would actually be ruining their own plan.

The Batarians knew the Alpha relay was special, but they kept that info hidden as they are no longer a council race. If anything, the Reapers were making this a more thought out trap making sure Shepard would think s/he has no choice but to destroy it. 

Whatever it is, I hope Bioware has addressed it in ME3. My bet is it's along the lines of using too much potential reapage power and however they get in has weakened them, but I like this idea more. 

[Phaedon]

OP and Marshalleck, this should help you understand:




Yeeep, it's that simple.

Modifié par Phaedon, 01 mai 2011 - 06:17 .

[Urdnot Orrad]

@Phaedon: LOL.

Also, I read through your Reaper Invasion Plans thread. Very enlightening; excellent job.

[Ahglock]

Power Supplies is my theory. Jumping to the citadel uses the mass relay's power leaving the reapers fully charged. Flying there on your own leaves you in a weakened state with a larger potential of totally failing. Sovereign is the back up plan so the main fleet can arrive at full power. Once your back ups fail you have to make the journey on your own since you no longer have a choice, otherwise they basically just starve to death in dark space.

[Phaedon]

Urdnot Orrad wrote...

@Phaedon: LOL.

Also, I read through your Reaper Invasion Plans thread. Very enlightening; excellent job.

Thanks. 

[Reever]

Nice graphic =D

[Black Raptor]

Ahglock wrote...

Power Supplies is my theory. Jumping to the citadel uses the mass relay's power leaving the reapers fully charged. Flying there on your own leaves you in a weakened state with a larger potential of totally failing. Sovereign is the back up plan so the main fleet can arrive at full power. Once your back ups fail you have to make the journey on your own since you no longer have a choice, otherwise they basically just starve to death in dark space.

Probably the most likely scenario, although I hope that the eventual invasion is more climactic than simply flying closer and closer.