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[StellarSparrow]

Goodness. There's so much negativity on these forums it just makes me want to cry, for I am a simple folk and enjoy optimism and loveliness. So here is some!

The thing that I find to be the single most important in creating a compelling story is good character development, and I think that in the medium of video games it must be very difficult unless you're writing a completely linear storyline where everything always happens in a given order. When the player chooses the order in which story elements happen, it must be tricky to weave all the unpredictable progressions into a cohesive storyline. But this is something that Bioware seems to be ahead of the competition on.

I think that David Gaider must enjoy character development, because in The Stolen Throne (written by him, in case you're unaware), none of the really big world-scale events that people talk about for years later are even really described in the book. It's almost entirely about the individual-scale, a window into the lives of figures that you always hear about in the games but don't actually know. I like that sense of priority! Plus, if you look at the Dragon Age franchise and look at the Mass Effect franchise, you can tell that the focus is very different. Mass Effect tells stories about events that change the setting, and the cast of characters are just the people who happened to be involved. Whereas in Dragon Age, the world-level events seem to be used more as a playground in which characters and the relationships between them can be explored and grow.

What do you think? Did you find most of the characters well-developed too, or do you think they were lacking? Leaving aside your visceral reaction to the character themselves (as they would be as a person), who do you think is the best character in the DA franchise in terms of development? For me, I think it may be Loghain. Between the Stolen Throne and Origins, it's quite a journey he goes on.

[AreleX]

I'm going to have to second the Loghain vote, he's probably my favorite DA character overall. It kind of strikes me as odd, when I think about it; I love Loghain, who, reason or justification for doing so aside, leaves his king (his best friend's son, no less) and the entire forces at Ostagar to die/tries to thwart you and have you killed almost the whole of Origins, yet I despise Anders and his antics at the end of the game. I sometimes wonder if the two are actually comparable, or if I'm just a hypocrite. Side note: even if Loghain wasn't so goddamn awesome, he'd win on the merit of having the best henchman, Rendon Howe (voiced to slimy perfection by the amazing Tim Curry, I never knew if I wanted to applaud him or punch him in the face).

I feel like, as far character development goes (overall), DA2 was weaker than Origins. You spend 10 years knowing these people (and, by proxy, them getting to know each other), and at the tail end of that time (the end of the game), not many are very different. I liked that, in DA2, you could see the characters interacting (i.e, Isabela going to Anders' clinic so he can magic off her dragon aids), as opposed to just the short, triggered conversations, but you'll note that almost all of these are Varric and Isabela. At the end of the game, Fenris still hates all mages, Anders is still an apologist (and later, a terrorist) who bickers with other companions at every turn, and Merrill (as much as I love her) still doesn't realize that in trying so hard to help and better her people, she's actually endangered them. I'm all for passionate characters with a strong set of beliefs, but these three in particular grated on my nerves.

Evidence of this? Play in a party with Merrill, Anders, and Fenris in Act I. Then, do so in Act II. Last, do so in Act III. Nothing changes between them. There is no mutual respect, there is no compromise, there is no agreeing to disagree, there is just arguing, thickheadedness, and bickering, throughout the WHOOOOOLE game. I was especially disgusted with Anders for taunting a distraught Merrill after Pol died. We get it, you're not a fan of blood magic, but could you really be any more of a d**khead? That pretty much sums up my feelings on Fenris and Anders' 'my way or the highway' attitudes. Merrill, at the very least, pulls it together at some point, but these two continue down the respective paths of their extremes until the very end of the game.

TL;DR - Loghain is awesome, I love both games and their respective strengths, but feel that character development could have been a little better in DA2.

Modifié par AreleX, 30 avril 2011 - 03:33 .

[mr_afk]

StellarSparrow wrote...

Goodness. There's so much negativity on these forums it just makes me want to cry, for I am a simple folk and enjoy optimism and loveliness. So here is some!

Well you obviously haven't been hanging out in the Characters, classes and Builds/Gameplay and Strategy Forums (aka the nerd corner). Here we're all rainbows, sunshine and happiness! 


But yes, I do agree that good character development also makes for the best story - whether it be a novel, movie or game. And yeah it's probably a lot harder to fit in proper character development into games (as in addition to the balance between linear-isation and character development, you lack some of the epic scale (content-wise) that only books can fit in (as books can add character development into even the fight sequences)).

While the Warden and Hawke had several choices over the course of the game and their conversations could take on different personalities, the lack in the ability to actual show large shifts emotionally sort of hinders the character development process. Unless you use your imagination to complete the picture. Then again, maybe it's because I'm boring and always choose the same 'personality options' for the entirety of the game. I remember the first time I played the game (without looking at any spoilers etc) I went through the deep roads with bethany and without anders. I actually did not expect her to die and that was the most powerful, surprising shock I've ever had from a game (most amazing storywise I suppose). I was actually stunned. Hawke and her sister were really good friends and i'd had bethany in the party the whole act - so gotten to know her through the party banter. So when she suddenly died... For the few minutes before I redid the deeproads (couldn't leave her dead) I/hawke had a complete shift from the jovial happy hawke to this angry vengeful hawke. If I had continued with that playthrough roleplaying-wise I suppose Hawke would have undergone some pretty amazing character development.

As for my opinion on the character-development of the DA universe, I would say that it was decent in most cases with a few characters better developed and a few worse. Besides Loghain, most of the characters were trapped within stereotypes. Even the ones that were more atypical didn't develop as such, just started off different.
For me, the characters that actually develop in the game were the female love interests (e.g. leilana, morrigan, isabela (not really merrill)). Leliana had the whole crisis of choosing between the exciting life of an adventurer/bard and remaining devout etc. Especially with her backstory (dlc) she has a decent degree of development across the course of the game. It helps that I liked her accent  (I originally hated it tbh, it just grew on me). Morrigan and Isabela started off within reasonably predictable roles but had the good old shift in their beliefs about love. I also liked Isabelas character to start off with, so she probably would be one of my favourite characters in the DA universe if not the most well-developed.

As for the male/other companions, there were some changes (e.g. alistair hardening the f up and stens shift towards approval haha) but they didn't really change that much in my opinion. They were nice to have along though. Umm I didn't really spend that much time with Zevran so I can't say much about any development there. He had a pretty nice backstory though, about the whole street urchin thing (unless I confabulated that all up). From DA2 there was even less change, with Fenris remaining a douchebag and Anders an annoying whiny wannabe rebel.

Okay, I should stop rambling and cut to the chase. My favourite character of the franchise would probably be Fiona, the elf grey warden from The Calling. Not sure why but her character was pretty amazing to me. Otherwise Duncan was pretty cool - had a nice backstory (young duncan is awesome). Game-wise I might consider leliana or maybe isabela - though i'm probably biased due to my tendancy to romance them. 

Well think I've spieled on long enough.

Modifié par mr_afk, 30 avril 2011 - 03:44 .

[IN1]

Well you obviously haven't been hanging out in the Characters, classes and Builds/Gameplay and Strategy Forums (aka the nerd corner). Here we're all rainbows, sunshine and happiness! 

That's actually true. And if we disagree, we can always arrange a build vs. build video duel. That's much better than calling the people that don't share one's opinion trolls.

Modifié par IN1, 30 avril 2011 - 03:45 .

[Irish Porkchopp]

mr_afk wrote...
....

Morrigan and Isabela started off within reasonably predictable roles but had the good old shift in their beliefs about love. I also liked Isabelas character to start off with, so she probably would be one of my favourite characters in the DA universe if not the most well-developed.

Isabela's shift actually surprised me.  Since I didn't complete her storyline until my third playthrough, I really didn't like her to start.  But once she was fully fleshed out, I actually like her character. 

From DA2 there was even less change, with Fenris remaining a douchebag and Anders an annoying whiny wannabe rebel.

I feel like these characters had potential that wasn't fulfilled.  I would have loved to see Anders start the game as Awakenings Anders, then slowly devolve into his twisted self by the end -- instead of just being an a** from the beginning.  There was one point, while I had Anders and Sebastian in the party, when Anders says to Seb "I see you looking at me.." There is more to it, but Ansers sounds so paranoid, it's great.  They should have latched onto that.

In the end, I think there was a lot of potential in DA2 that wasn't capitalized on.

[AreleX]

I completely agree with Porkchopp. As much as I love this game, I have a hard time looking at some things (Meredith, Orsino, and the whole of Act III) without seeing anything but potential for awesomeness that isn't truly realized.

Act I is awesome, Act II is even better (the Arishok is one thing no sane person can say DA2 DIDN'T nail), and Act III is Meredith suddenly going Sith Lord with her Soul Edge (no mention to WHY she bought it, weak plot device for a pretty awesome boss fight), and Orsino going from a full game of seemingly being the only level-headed mage in the city, to cutting his wrists and going 'S**T GUYS NO HOPE, GET IN MY BELLY'. I would've been okay with Orsino turning to blood magic if it were slowly hinted that his resolve may be weakening in the face of Meredith's stranglehold on Kirkwall (hell, I think it could've been cool and really well done, without cheapening the boss fight), but it happened so suddenly and randomly that I became completely detatched from the story and world, and went into 'turn brain off, enjoy the awesome' mode. Same for the Meredith fight.

This, at least, strikes me as a consequence of the game being rushed, and needing an easy way to tie things up for the ending. That's one of the reasons I hate playing Act III; you can just SEE all the untapped potential there, and it's kind of painful for me to think about what it is vs. what it could've been.

Getting a bit off-topic, though, so I digress.

IN1 wrote...

Well you obviously haven't been hanging out in the Characters, classes and Builds/Gameplay and Strategy Forums (aka the nerd corner). Here we're all rainbows, sunshine and happiness! 

That's actually true. And if we disagree, we can always arrange a build vs. build video duel. That's much better than calling the people that don't share one's opinion trolls.

This is true! Just don't go into that 'Warrior is Weak' thread...

Everyone here is lovely (except IN1 because he's smarter than I am and does things better than me, two things I cannot allow!). Hang out with us, we're awesome.

Modifié par AreleX, 30 avril 2011 - 05:34 .

[IN1]

and Act III is Meredith suddenly going Sith Lord with her Soul Edge (no mention to WHY she bought it, weak plot device for a pretty awesome boss fight), and Orsino going from a full game of seemingly being the only level-headed mage in the city, to cutting his wrists and going 'S**T GUYS NO HOPE, GET IN MY BELLY'. I would've been okay with Orsino turning to blood magic if it were slowly hinted that his resolve may be weakening in the face of Meredith's stranglehold on Kirkwall (hell, I think it could've been cool and really well done, without cheapening the boss fight), but it happened so suddenly and randomly that I became completely detatched from the story and world, and went into 'turn brain off, enjoy the awesome' mode. Same for the Meredith fight.

I actually think even Japanese logic would be better here. Something in the vein of:

Hawke: Orsino, you need to calm down. Come on, you are a reasonable person. Don't you realize you will achieve nothing by using blood magic and turning into a monster?

Orsino: Hmmm, you may be right. But the thing is -- I haven't made my mind yet. You'll need to convince me first. Hope you get my drift, hehe.

This approach also allows you to spare Orsino's life after you best him in that pseudo-duel. He's quite a charismatic elf, after all.

Modifié par IN1, 30 avril 2011 - 05:52 .

[Irish Porkchopp]

AreleX wrote...
the Arishok is one thing no sane person can say DA2 DIDN'T nail

Because the character was developed over several encounters, and through other characters.  The qunari as a whole were well written in terms of developing them as a character- starting from DAO.

AreleX wrote... 
I would've been okay with Orsino turning to blood magic if it were slowly hinted that his resolve may be weakening in the face of Meredith's stranglehold on Kirkwall

You mean if his character was developed

It's kind of  frustrating to know that it could be so much more.  But it's still a great game.

[kromify]

DA is an RPG; that means it's supposed to be based around people. don't get me wrong - i love the games, but DA2 was worse simply because it lacked the origin story. if your background is always the same then how do your motivations change in different playthroughs? Amell/Surana might throw themselves into being grey wardens because they hate being confined in the circle. Aeducan sees it as a duty, Mahariel spends the whole game pining for the clan. Hawke herself does not evolve as a character very well; she wants money then enjoys living in a mansion. Yippee /sarcasm

Loghain is an amazing character because he isn't black or white; it's so much easier to hate him if you are unaware of his history. what a fun father-in-law he must be...

[StellarSparrow]

mr_afk wrote...

Well you obviously haven't been hanging out in the Characters, classes and Builds/Gameplay and Strategy Forums (aka the nerd corner). Here we're all rainbows, sunshine and happiness!

Haha, truth! I have been delightfully proven wrong!

AreleX wrote...

Play in a party with Merrill, Anders, and Fenris in Act I. Then, do so in Act II. Last, do so in Act III. Nothing changes between them.

You know, I think when it comes to Merrill, you said it all. I did feel like she was one of the weaker characters of DA2. But I personally was quite fond of the Anders/Fenris dichotomy, because it works as a tool to reflect the pro-magic/anti-magic conflict that is going on all around you on a very personal level (especially since they're both LIs). I think that's a good thing to have, because it draws you in. I was really hoping for some lovely moment where they admitted that despite their differences, they did realise that they were idealogically the same (essentially they both believe in freedom and egalitarianism in their different areas, and they both believe just as fiercely as each other). Alas, it never came. But I suppose if they hadn't stuck to their guns to the bitter end, they wouldn't be the characters they are

mr_afk wrote...

While the Warden and Hawke had several choices over the course of the game and their conversations could take on different personalities, the lack in the ability to actual show large shifts emotionally sort of hinders the character development process. Unless you use your imagination to complete the picture.

Perhaps I'm a total loser (definitely a possibility!) but I guess I do use my imagination to complete the picture. I really like that the details for the Warden and Hawke aren't always decided in the game. There's always gaps of time and questions about what motivates them where you can make up what happened for yourself. I feel much more connected to these characters than I do to others where everything happens in game (have you played the Witcher? It's a very good game, but it's much harder to feel personally conencted to the protagonist, because everything, down to his memories and abstract ideological decisions, seem to be catered for via in-game quests. There's nothing left open for the player to insert their explanation/thought processes).

mr_afk wrote...

For me, the characters that actually develop in the game were the female love interests

There are some fantastically good female characters in DA. I agree with you about Morrigan and Isabella, they were both masterpieces as far as I was concerned. I always felt that Leliana was one of the weakest characters in DAO, so it's interesting that you found her so engaging. One man's trash is another's treasure, I guess But then I never played the DLC, so maybe I would feel differently if I did. (Though I liked her accent too!)

mr_afk wrote...

I didn't really spend that much time with Zevran so I can't say much about any development there.

You know, I thought that Zevran was a character development success. The main thing about Zevran's personality as I interpreted it was that he's never really made any decisions in his life before, everything has just happened to him and he's been relatively passive, and that's made him what he is. And your actions in the game really affect what happens to him - if you don't earn his loyalty, his life continues as it was before, and not that much has really changed. But if you earn his trust (especially if you follow his romance stoyline), he is changed completely, and in the end is so ready to make his own decisions that he can even be pro-active enough to go out and kill his former guildmaster. I found the amount that his character can develop quite satisfying

Irish Porkchopp wrote...

I would have loved to see Anders start the game as Awakenings Anders, then slowly devolve into his twisted self by the end -- instead of just being an a** from the beginning.

You know I hadn't though of that, but you're right, that would have been amazing. I guess they probably didn't have time for it - Anders already has a lot of storyline to get through, it would have been a pretty Anders-filled game if they're had that part of his story, too. Oooh, maybe we might see some between-Awakening-and-2 DLC for him some day, though? That would be fun!

AreleX wrote...

Act I is awesome, Act II is even better (the Arishok is one thing no sane person can say DA2 DIDN'T nail), and Act III is Meredith suddenly going Sith Lord with her Soul Edge (no mention to WHY she bought it, weak plot device for a pretty awesome boss fight), and Orsino going from a full game of seemingly being the only level-headed mage in the city, to cutting his wrists and going 'S**T GUYS NO HOPE, GET IN MY BELLY'.

*Weeps with laughter* Yep. Yep, I think I agree with you on every point there. I was getting quite into the drama and high emotion of the finale until Orsino turned into the big detachable-head face-monster. Then I was too bemused/amused/vaguely disgusted. And I thought the Meredith boss battle seemed like it was copy-pasted from some particularly bizzare J-RPG (nothing wrong with J-RPGs, but it was so out of place)! It's odd, because the boss battles in Origins and Awakening were all really well-done, I thought. Still, I don't think that the boss battles detract that much from my wide-eyed adoration of the overall game


Anyway. There is a time when you should stop writing forum posts, and I think my time was several hundred words ago.

Modifié par StellarSparrow, 30 avril 2011 - 11:01 .

[mr_afk]

Haha I wasn't saying that it's odd or bad to use your imagination to add to the complexity of whatever emotions your character feels or what actions your character takes. I usually do that too - my flaw is that after I come across the storyline that feels canon/real to me I find it very hard to break away from that mould.

E.g. In origins, my canon playthrough was a dalish elf (archer) who was generally a really nice person with a strong sense of duty - feeling terrible about tamlen, helping her fellow elves (and freeing the werewolves from their curse), saving the circle and helping harrowmont get the throne. I never managed to bring myself to do anything else on all my playthroughs - and there were a lot of them. (This also meant I didn't get all the achievements but I don't really care that much about them). My ending usually (read: always) involved the warden leaving to go adventuring with leliana such that I could imagine them adventuring on even after the game finished.

I liked the way that by choosing options both plotwise and conversational you can shape your characters personality and 'roleplay' them as such, so that their responses are what you would do as them...I think that makes sense. Anyhow, my gripe with DA2/games in general is more a less something really emotional/life changing occurs to you or your companions and all the banter/random dialogue seems the same, as if nothing happened. Merrill might have just partaken in the slaughter of her clan, the people she lived with for so many years and yet seem completely 'meh' about it. Some of it was pretty good though, especially the cutscenes involving your companions visiting you after certain events (mother dying).

So what I was getting at is that even though they do show character reactions (and it's good that they do) it sometimes just doesn't feel right when they don't show enough or the reaction isn't what you want/expect them to have. In books it's completely imaginary plus they can describe the thoughts/feelings better, good movies can also convey emotion etc. It's just in games that it struggles a little - though I suppose it would be hard to fit a mourning period/larger section of the game devoted to the aftershocks of things like your mother's death. Maybe in my current playthrough I'll get my character to react badly to her death and go mage hunting/side with the templars. Every second mage in Kirkwall does seem to be a bloodmage afterall (including hawke..how hypocritical would it be if I do side with the templars haha).

btw, I've never played the witcher - I tried it for a few minutes before getting sick of the way he moved/looked/and the fight system. Timing clicks doesn't work for me. I heard good things about it so I'm tempted to try it again but I dunno. I could be playing DA2 for the umteenth time! But yeah, I sort of know what you mean. It's probably like in final fantasy XIII where it becomes more like watching a movie (with some really irritating characters) with no real input into the story.


And I know what you mean by Leliana been "weak"/annoying. The first time I played it I had an intense dislike to her. But I don't know, listening to her stories at the campfire probably was the turning point. I liked those stories. They presented lore in such an engaging way. Plus once she's 'hardened' and not such a softy I think she's more bearable. The dlc wasn't that amazing - it's more just the storyline of how she came to be the way she was which adds an extra element above 'irritating chantry sister'.

Btw, have you read the calling yet? If you like character development/backstories etc. it gives an interesting perspective on duncan, maric, cailan and more. Even a possible explaination for duncan and alistairs relationship.

But yeah, I'm sort of regretting never getting to know Zevran better. He always ended up been that slightly seedy and self-deprecating friend that had experienced some sort of epiphany through his travels with the warden but nothing that special... He did always volunteer to follow leliana and the warden when they went travelling, so I guess the three of them ran off adventuring together (until zevrans face got mutliated by DA2 haha). I admit I struggle to romance male companions - i'm not homophobic or anything but it's always awkward... Even the alistair romance I once semi-did (as in kept putting him off) didn't end very well with him stupidly sacrificing himself. Oh well.

Anyway. I think I always reach that time when I should stop writing - but continue to write a couple hundred words more. This time I'll stop now while i still can ahaha.

Modifié par mr_afk, 30 avril 2011 - 01:25 .

[StellarSparrow]

Hmm, I think I can understand always having a playthrough that you can't vary from much. I think I've done everything possible in Origins, but I have a very strong sense of which of my Wardens was my personal canon one. All the others are just how the story COULD have gone... But it didn't.

In my opinion, the Witcher is worth the money if you can spare it, but you're not losing anything dreadful if you never play it. I got one good playthrough from it but have never really have the motivation to finish it again. It has a great story with some really nice touches. But, yeah, like you say, the combat gets so tedious and doesn't have much strategy, and there isn't a great amount of complexity to the character building either. The combat is really something you have to get past in order to enjoy the story, rather than something that enhances the game. So it doesn't capture my imagination like Bioware games tend to, but I enjoyed it enough when I played it.

I'm actually reading The Calling at the moment. I don't like it as much as The Stolen Throne (it just seems less complex and more like a typical dungeoncrawly, D&D-style adventure), but it is great to read more about the characters, Maric and Duncan especially. I love Utha in the book - I never really gave her a second thought in Awakening, but she really shines in the Calling.

[AreleX]

Kind of off-topic note: I got the DA books earlier because of the people in this thread liking them, and I'm enjoying The Stolen Throne very much so far, so thank you all for the (sort of) recommendation!

Modifié par AreleX, 01 mai 2011 - 07:30 .

[StellarSparrow]

Yay! I loved the Stolen Throne. All the best bits are towards the end, look forward to it!

[CalJones]

Except for the ending. I really wanted to read about the Battle of River Dane and after building Meghren to be such a despicable character, I really wanted to revel in his death. Instead we got Maric running off to kill Katriel's master, a character who I didn't care enough about to remember his name. (I hated Katriel, anyway).

Back to DAII, and Orsino's meltdown was inexplicable to me. Why he does that and then attacks his allies makes no sense whatsoever. Ideally the game should have split at that point and you would have had a different boss battle depending on who you chose to support, but if Bioware wanted Meredith and Orsino dead (to avoid too many variables to import into future titles) then they should have just gone super-Saiyan at each other, leaving Hawke stuck in the middle. That would have been a far more epic boss battle.

[mr_afk]

Whaaat?! how could you hate Katriel?!!! She was amazing....when she died it was like the worst thing ever. She had the whole redemption/change in beliefs character development - so her ending was the hugest tragedy.
Plus I always imagined her as been somewhat hot which does help.

[CalJones]

Ah well, I'm female so the hot doesn't work on me. As for changing sides, it was too little too late. **** got a load of Fereldans killed at West Hill and had to pay for that. And Maric had to wise up. He passed over Rowan, an awesome woman, to bone a pretty little bit of Orlesian fluff (who just happened to be a dangerous assassin/spy) and needed a good man slap from Loghain to wise up. There was no way he could have married an Orlesian elf commoner who just so happened to be responsible for the deaths of a hell of a lot of rebels. She had to go.

[mr_afk]

I suppose that would reduce some of her appeal. To me it made the story echo of one of those impossible love romances - and it's tragic ending made it even sadder/impactful. I mean, they ended up both really liking each other (Maric even considering making her queen and her rethinking her life). The only sucky part was that I really liked Rowan as well - so ended up just thinking Maric was a bit of a douche. It's like a ridiculously lame love..square, or 'line' as it doesn't really connect up and nobody ends up with what they want or could have had.

And deaths at West Hill said, she did try to fix/regret about that whole west hill thing if I remember rightly. But she couldn't - and was too late. And that made that also a tragedy. But she did save Maric's life? My memory is a little buggered atm, haven't read it in too long - might read it again tonight. All this talk about it has made me remember how amazing it was haha

[AreleX]

I finished The Stolen Throne earlier, and I LOVED IT! Most books based on games are shoddily done attempts to cash in on the name, but this was really well done, and I think it would still be good even as its own entity. It is a testament to the effectiveness of the writing to know how something ends, but still find it a gripping read.

Maric's turn from naive, child-like optimist to world-weary realist king was was played perfectly, I think. Genuinely optimistic, glass half full, looks to the best in people before the worst types are rare, and it was kind of saddening to see that stripped from him so abruptly, even if it was necessary. What else did Flemeth tell him? I MUST KNOW!

Loghain serves as a great counter-point to Maric, since he sees the world for what it is, instead of what he wants it to be. I was also sad that he didn't end up with Rowan, since he wasn't blind to her the way Maric was after Katriel came along, but it wouldn't fit into the book's theme of 'what you wish to happen isn't always what needs to happen'. It's even easier to understand his extremist actions in Origins after reading this book, but the question is whether or not this justifies them to you.

Another question is, does Katriel's repentance and assistance make up for her betrayal? In my eyes, it doesn't. She used Maric's kind, believing nature to her advantage, and many of his men were murdered at West Hill as a result. I don't blame Loghain at all for keeping her letter from Maric, because he knew that had Maric seen it, he likely would not have done what was needed. Deserved as her death was, in my eyes, I still got a little bit choked up (actually did at a couple different points). Strong men...do cry!

The only part I sort of take issue with is the ending. We knew prior to the book that Loghain was the Hero of River Dane, and I was really looking forward to hearing about the battle. As was said above, I was hoping to hear about the death of the usurper, as well.

I started The Calling, so here's to hoping it's half as good!

Modifié par AreleX, 02 mai 2011 - 04:51 .

[mr_afk]

That's pretty much what I thought! Was so surprised when it was so good - I think that was gaider's first novel, but given how amazing all the storylines/dialogues etc are for all those bioware games he helped write I suppose it should have been expected.
Have you read the mass effect ones? They're actually pretty good as well! (not written by gaider of course). Never really got into the whole reading books-based-on-games until bioware came along.
The Calling is pretty good, won't give any spoilers but I really liked the different side of duncan it depicts. Plus it had my favourite character (Fiona) which helps. It didn't feel quite as original as Stolen Throne though with quite a few ideas/plot-points somewhat ganked from the games - but it does serve to explain and link to the story in Awakening.

Anyhow - I think Loghain did serve as a good counter-point, but I never really liked him that much tbh. He was such an angry man. His and Rowan's relationship weren't as impactful to me though - because it was so obvious that Rowan liked Maric (I mean, who wouldn't) and yet he still sort of cracked onto her. Bit of a douche-act, really. Not quite as bad as Maric's complete rejection of Rowan though...

But yeah, I always thought of it more like Katriel lived her life without any choices (sort of how StellarSparrow described Zevran). Things just were done in certain ways - she was pretty much sent to do a job and she was just fulfilling her contract. Based on lore it seems that the bard method of seduction etc. isn't such a rare thing, so in this case it's almost impersonal and her use of his kindness and 'betrayal' leading to all those deaths was pretty much her just doing what she thought she had to do. The fact that she broke her bardic rules (don't get involved) to rescue Maric etc. to me is basically the start of her real self emerging. From then on you see her attempting to tell Maric what she was - and trying to end her contract. This is like a reformation of what she believes, of what is right...I mean, she's an Orlesian who ends up siding with the Orlesian enemies.

So basically it ends up been her trying to do her job, falling in love and breaking all the rules to try and fix things/change things. She knows she's done wrong and attempts to ask for Maric's forgiveness - but because Loghain is an utter heartless bastard, he causes her death and the tragic ending that continues to haunt Maric for the rest of his life - and thus also ruining any potential happiness between him and Rowan (though that was somewhat ruined by him and Katriel anyway).

So I don't know. To me I think that her death wasn't really deserved. Sure, justice-wise and taking into account her actions of course she had it coming. But in terms of what could have been - I don't know. The 'perfect' ending if there was such a thing would be Maric forgiving her/her repenting then continuing on in a happy romance while Rowan and Loghain can be happy together. Instead all of them end up feeling all emo and nobody really gets what they want.

Anyway, I thought they described the battle of the river dane? or did I confabulate it up. How odd.
Well I better stop spieling so much. Not sure why I can't be more succinct

Modifié par mr_afk, 02 mai 2011 - 05:22 .