380 réponses à ce sujet

[Mad-Max90]

Have you bothered reading the interview with Casey Hudson in game informer over how the choices made in the previous titles will play out in the third game, I'm just saying you might want to give it a read before posting save transfers to sequels don't work. For what it's worth I do believe that guy, he hasn't lied yet, so I have no reason not to.

[JabbaDaHutt30]

Zanallen wrote...

bti79 wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

Let me ask you this, has Bioware ever used the save transfer system even adequately let alone well? We had a few cameos, some bugged, and a bunch of pointless emails in ME 2. DA 2 also had a bunch of inconsistancies and bugs within the system and it barely made a dent in the story. Personally, I find the system to be more of a burden on Bioware that stops them from allowing true choices within their games.

That's poor decisions on Biowares part - not a problem with the system. I'm not saying that every minor decision should create an entirely different world - and some of the different 'threads' could easily be joined somehow.

What choices should matter would depend on the story to be told;

e.g. the continuation of Morrigans story;

it would matter;
Did the warden or another do DR? (if not OGB could be made canon)
Did the warden stay with Morrigan or leave Morrigan? or neverbothered with her in the first place.

If they make OGB canon somehow, then we are down to 3 not very different background stories.

Same thing if we wanted to continue on Alistairs story.

The complexity can ofcourse become a problem, but that's only if they try to focus too broadly on creating true carryover at one time. 

The choices alone pretty much regulates the whole thing to a sidequest. And probably a poorly made one at that.

But let me rephrase. Have you ever seen the system used well? Ever?

It sure as hell was used better in Mass Effect 2, 'poorly made sidesquests' aside.

Implying that sidequests are a triviality in RPG's at that. Well, that might have been true for DA 2...

Modifié par JabbaDaHutt30, 04 mai 2011 - 07:16 .

[Zanallen]

Mad-Max90 wrote...

Have you bothered reading the interview with Casey Hudson in game informer over how the choices made in the previous titles will play out in the third game, I'm just saying you might want to give it a read before posting save transfers to sequels don't work. For what it's worth I do believe that guy, he hasn't lied yet, so I have no reason not to.

I've read it. I'm still hesitant though. If they make it work, then awesome. However, I have yet to see it work well in any of their games. And, personally, I feel that having it comes at a cost of significant choice within the game.

[bti79]

Zanallen wrote...

Scope, mostly. Expansions are designed to be short and generally expand upon plotlines not fully developed within the main story. That's why save transfers work well there. A sequel is generally longer with a wider scope and, in DA specifically, don't follow the preceeding game in terms of location or plot. But, let's map out the transfer system for a bit.

DA:O choices -> Expansion choices  -> DA II choices. These all have to be accounted for within DA3. DA3's choices are added to be accounted for in DA4.

If Bioware just glosses over these choices or "retcons" a few for story reasons, they are bashed for it.

Also, each choice cannot be too extreme in order to prevent each game from getting progressively different.

The choices do not cumulate blindly, sometimes paths will merge, others can be ignored completely if they are not relevant to the story at hand.

I don't think Bioware will be bashed for picking out the interesting stories and focus on them. They are being bashed because they didn't even bother to do that.

I competely understand that carryover makes it complexer than if they didn't do it. Only without carry over - why would I want to bother? The selling point of DA is carryover from the masterpiecethat Origins was - it would be foolish not to build upon that. With DA2 Bioware gave us a sense of false hope that there would be built uponthe greatness of Origins. It will not work again - DA3 will have to deliever. If it's just nother random story in Thedas.. *shrugs* what else is on?

[JabbaDaHutt30]

Zanallen wrote...

Mad-Max90 wrote...

Have you bothered reading the interview with Casey Hudson in game informer over how the choices made in the previous titles will play out in the third game, I'm just saying you might want to give it a read before posting save transfers to sequels don't work. For what it's worth I do believe that guy, he hasn't lied yet, so I have no reason not to.

. However, I have yet to see it work well in any of their games. 

Good for you. If they'd have restricted it to simply having your choices recognized through a significant part of well-written dialogue or well-placed cameos, which they also did, I'd be content enough. Dragon Age 2 didn't even do that. 

Either of it.

[Dragoonlordz]

I would say origin style suits sequels more so then even initial titles, because the thing origins does very well is take multiple start points and diverges them into a single plot/storyline. Instead of converging all endgames into a narrow linear framework they could switch it around and have multiple cumulative endings lead to multiple beginnings during which they converge and then expand again in preporation for the next in the series.

I am specifically relating to major choices and impact not minor below.

This is what DA2 feels like to me.


While this is what I think would be better.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 04 mai 2011 - 07:23 .

[Mad-Max90]

Nice to see you back Jabba, I still can't believe what happened.

[Zanallen]

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

It sure as hell was used better in Mass Effect 2, 'poorly made sidesquests' aside.

Implying that sidequests are a triviality in RPG's at that. Well, that might have been true for DA 2...

Did I say that? No. Please don't infer nonsense from my statements, especially not as an excuse to bash DA II. However. turning an important plot point from one game into a weak sidequest would be a travesty. And the sidequest would be weak at best because the save transfer system creates multiple versions of the event. Bioware isn't going to create multiple great quests to fit each version, especially if some people won't see the quest at all. Its a waste of resources.

[Mad-Max90]

After your last post I really don't think you read the interview.

[Zanallen]

bti79 wrote...

The choices do not cumulate blindly, sometimes paths will merge, others can be ignored completely if they are not relevant to the story at hand.

I don't think Bioware will be bashed for picking out the interesting stories and focus on them. They are being bashed because they didn't even bother to do that.

I competely understand that carryover makes it complexer than if they didn't do it. Only without carry over - why would I want to bother? The selling point of DA is carryover from the masterpiecethat Origins was - it would be foolish not to build upon that. With DA2 Bioware gave us a sense of false hope that there would be built uponthe greatness of Origins. It will not work again - DA3 will have to deliever. If it's just nother random story in Thedas.. *shrugs* what else is on?

The selling point of DA is the carryover feature? Really? Not the plot, setting or characters? The selling point is the dubious promise of your choices carrying over to matter in a second game?

[Zanallen]

Mad-Max90 wrote...

After your last post I really don't think you read the interview.

Once again, I'll believe how well they implement the choices when I see it. I trust Bioware on a lot of things; however, this isn't one of them.

[bti79]

Zanallen wrote...

The selling point of DA is the carryover feature? Really? Not the plot, setting or characters? The selling point is the dubious promise of your choices carrying over to matter in a second game?

So to include Flemeth in the promo artwork and demo and then feature her for a full five minutes in the actual game was not a cheap attempt at luring fans into thinking there'd be real carryover?

[Dragoonlordz]

Zanallen wrote...

The selling point of DA is the carryover feature? Really? Not the plot, setting or characters? The selling point is the dubious promise of your choices carrying over to matter in a second game?

It was a LARGE selling point while not the only one, it was a major one and applies to both DA and ME series of which the system/franchises is promoted on most.

[Mad-Max90]

Actually that was one of the big things promoted in origins, "see how your choices will affect the land of thedas" or something like that, but they were going for a more effect the world's history by your choices back in origins only to drop that once DA2 came out

[Mad-Max90]

Then shouldnt you reserve your judgement of save game transfers untill you play mass effect 3? If you want to go there?

[Dragoonlordz]

Bioware stories are not the best game plots and stories in video gaming. As stories alone they are pretty good but there are much better stories in games. The big selling point for Bioware and it's biggest quality is the choice/consequence cuase/effect system they use. That is what makes them special and that is what makes their stories great instead of good or above average. The import and export of choices and effects on the plot and world is if anything one of if not the biggest selling point Bioware has in it's arsenal.

[Zanallen]

Mad-Max90 wrote...

Actually that was one of the big things promoted in origins, "see how your choices will affect the land of thedas" or something like that, but they were going for a more effect the world's history by your choices back in origins only to drop that once DA2 came out

The problem is that they don't affect Thedas. Heck, they can't in any real way because the multiple branches create too many differing paths. As such, you'll get a bunch of minor choices that carry through, but your major choices all lead to the same basic outcome. You'll have no real power to affect the world because they can't truly account for your choices within subsequent games.

[Haexpane]

Yxunomei wrote...

  I am getting tired of people whinning and complaining about why DA:2 is a complete bust etc.,

PRO TIP:  Don't read the complaints if you are tired of them.

[Zanallen]

Mad-Max90 wrote...

Then shouldnt you reserve your judgement of save game transfers untill you play mass effect 3? If you want to go there?

Except they have already messed it up twice now? As such, I can formulate my own opinion on the subject. If, hopefully, they turn it around and really deliver with ME3, then I can change my opinion based around new information. However, if they mess it up again...Well, that's three strikes.

[erynnar]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Bioware stories are not the best game plots and stories in video gaming. As stories alone they are pretty good but there are much better stories in games. The big selling point for Bioware and it's biggest quality is the choice/consequence cuase/effect system they use. That is what makes them special and that is what makes their stories great instead of good or above average. The import and export of choices and effects on the plot and world is if anything one of if not the biggest selling point Bioware has in it's arsenal.

Ah you do it again. This^ And I loved the chart.

[Zanallen]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Bioware stories are not the best game plots and stories in video gaming. As stories alone they are pretty good but there are much better stories in games. The big selling point for Bioware and it's biggest quality is the choice/consequence cuase/effect system they use. That is what makes them special and that is what makes their stories great instead of good or above average. The import and export of choices and effects on the plot and world is if anything one of if not the biggest selling point Bioware has in it's arsenal.

But they have never done it even well, so how is it really a selling point? As for your chart, yeah. It would be awesome if Bioware did that. But I don't think they can with the limitations they currently have. Also, your chart seems to suggest that the main plot would have no real choice until the end. Is that something you would really want just for the sake of being able to transfer your data to a new game? That's basically having the only transferables in DA:O being your warden's origin and how the archdemon was dealt with.

[Dragoonlordz]

Zanallen wrote...

Mad-Max90 wrote...

Actually that was one of the big things promoted in origins, "see how your choices will affect the land of thedas" or something like that, but they were going for a more effect the world's history by your choices back in origins only to drop that once DA2 came out

The problem is that they don't affect Thedas. Heck, they can't in any real way because the multiple branches create too many differing paths. As such, you'll get a bunch of minor choices that carry through, but your major choices all lead to the same basic outcome. You'll have no real power to affect the world because they can't truly account for your choices within subsequent games.

Thats not exactly true, dwarven leader choice, king/queen ferelden choice, werewolves choice these examples I have used before and they affect the world in quite a fairly large way and even more so the effect on ferelden. They aren't minor and shouldnt be shrugged off.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 04 mai 2011 - 07:50 .

[erynnar]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

Mad-Max90 wrote...

Actually that was one of the big things promoted in origins, "see how your choices will affect the land of thedas" or something like that, but they were going for a more effect the world's history by your choices back in origins only to drop that once DA2 came out

The problem is that they don't affect Thedas. Heck, they can't in any real way because the multiple branches create too many differing paths. As such, you'll get a bunch of minor choices that carry through, but your major choices all lead to the same basic outcome. You'll have no real power to affect the world because they can't truly account for your choices within subsequent games.

Thats not exactly true, dwarven leader choice, king/queen ferelden choice, werewolves choice these examples I have used before and they affect the world in quite a fairly large way and even more so the effect on ferelden. They aren't minor and shouldner be shrugged off.

This^, again. Should I just follow you around the forums Dragoon? ROFL!  Yeah if you pick a certain person for King of the dwarves it almost annilates them due to in fighting (no spoilers). That is pretty signifigant.

[Dragoonlordz]

Zanallen wrote...

But they have never done it even well, so how is it really a selling point? As for your chart, yeah. It would be awesome if Bioware did that. But I don't think they can with the limitations they currently have. Also, your chart seems to suggest that the main plot would have no real choice until the end. Is that something you would really want just for the sake of being able to transfer your data to a new game? That's basically having the only transferables in DA:O being your warden's origin and how the archdemon was dealt with.

It's done better than most, because most don't do it. No I doodled that little pic in about 2 mins in paint the lines start and stop at various points within the straight mainline plot its just i was being lazy. It's just the most basic of basic drawing/doodles.  With regard to choices I mentioned about kings/rulers etc they will affect generations and the country in a significant way during their reign and you chose who is in that position each having different personailities and desires or ways forward for the race or nation. 

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 04 mai 2011 - 07:53 .

[Zanallen]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

Mad-Max90 wrote...

Actually that was one of the big things promoted in origins, "see how your choices will affect the land of thedas" or something like that, but they were going for a more effect the world's history by your choices back in origins only to drop that once DA2 came out

The problem is that they don't affect Thedas. Heck, they can't in any real way because the multiple branches create too many differing paths. As such, you'll get a bunch of minor choices that carry through, but your major choices all lead to the same basic outcome. You'll have no real power to affect the world because they can't truly account for your choices within subsequent games.

Thats not exactly true, dwarven leader choice, king/queen ferelden choice, werewolves choice these examples I have used before and they affect the world in quite a fairly large way and even more so the effect on ferelden. They aren't minor and shouldner be shrugged off.

The question is not how they are important within the game, the question is how important they are when trransfered over. You get...A cameo and two rather weak sidequests. Awesome. Bioware could have expanded on what those choices meant to the world as a whole, but then they run the risk of creating content that few people see or spending resources to double up game portions that can only be accessed with different saves instead of putting content in the base game.