380 réponses à ce sujet

[Chromie]

Elhanan wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

element eater wrote...


Again Violence while not a a requirment for mature to story telling or games is sometime needed. To this extent its interesting how you describe the brood mother scene as an example of mature story telling; but this sequence conjures pretty violent images if i remember correctly arent the female captives forced to eat flesh of other captives or darkspawn just because you never actualy see this doesnt mean that the use violence doesnt contribute to the effectiveness of the scene.

Not only that, but, ironically, the Brood Mother is....nude.  And it's an exagerated nudity too  (she's got 8 bare  ******  lol)

Again, well orchestrated Violence, Nudity and Swearing  add tons to a dark, mature  story.    More than  most people even realize.     One does NOT get the same sense of drama and epicness when we see darkspawn  and the king's soldiers doing battle sans any blood and gore (for example), and as you point out, a good, touching romance scene loses *so much* when the players are wearing all their clothes and 'dry humping'.

As I have recently used this clip, it shows a much better usage than the vest array of scenes shown currently:

http://www.dailymoti...inia_shortfilms

This is a far superior love scene to most, IMO.

Yes well comparing anything to Kubrick isn't wise.

Also Witcher 2 romance/sex scenes look really good There is nudity but nothing that should be called erotic or porn...ofcourse some people can't handle the slightest nipple. M rated games should be catered to people of that age group and that's a game that takes advantage of it's M rating.

[Elhanan]

Ringo12 wrote...

Yes well comparing anything to Kubrick isn't wise.

Also Witcher 2 romance/sex scenes look really good There is nudity but nothing that should be called erotic or porn...ofcourse some people can't handle the slightest nipple. M rated games should be catered to people of that age group and that's a game that takes advantage of it's M rating.

And if some had been reading, they might understand that the inclusion of profanity, nudity, or violence has nothing to do with M.
 
Kubrick or not; prefer fade to black as the imagination is the most potent aphrodisiac extant.

Modifié par Elhanan, 02 mai 2011 - 06:27 .

[erynnar]

Addai67 wrote...

erynnar wrote...
UGH don't get me started on Americans and our immature stupidity over nudity and sex. I lived in Europe and I much prefer their adult way of handling both topics. Americans as a culture tend to ack like a bunch of thirteen year olds having wet dreams and sex fantasies while prentending it isn't happening and we aren't growing up.

Eh.  I don't consider the nudie women on page 12 of a daily newspaper to be all that "mature."  It's just a different standard, and speaking for myself, I prefer a more modest one.  Just letting it all hang out is no indication of maturity.

I didn't it was. Just that Europeans, as whole, tend to have a much more mature attitude and reaction to nudity and sex. Does that mean immature, page 12 *cough*, stuff doesn't happen? No.  But we Americans don't take a modest approach.  We treat nudity and sex like a forbidden thing, and it makes people go to extremes (sucking crack off the ass of a hooker shall we say, while deploring such things in a public forum).  Modesty is one thing, but extremeism is another. And we Americans love to bounce from extreme to extreme. I wouldn't use us as an example of how to handle sex and nudity.

[Elhanan]

erynnar wrote...

I didn't it was. Just that Europeans, as whole, tend to have a much more mature attitude and reaction to nudity and sex. Does that mean immature, page 12 *cough*, stuff doesn't happen? No.  But we Americans don't take a modest approach.  We treat nudity and sex like a forbidden thing, and it makes people go to extremes (sucking crack off the ass of a hooker shall we say, while deploring such things in a public forum).  Modesty is one thing, but extremeism is another. And we Americans love to bounce from extreme to extreme. I wouldn't use us as an example of how to handle sex and nudity.

Some may say mature; I would say exposed. Europians have had nudity and sex as mainstream for some time, and have become somewhat calloused of it. While some view this as a good thing, I personally do not and prefer the imagination to nudity.

[Sabriana]

Yes. For example, I do have family over there, and I love them dearly. But some things just make no sense.

My aunt told my cousin to save herself for marriage, because sex was a "dirty" thing. It confused all the hell out of me, because personally, I don't think that sex is dirty, and secondly why would you want to inflict something so obviously "dirty" to the one you love?

Over here, sex and nudity are a'okay. Because it's what we are, and it serves to procreate. Violence on the other hand, is frowned upon. It serves no other purpose but the destruction of fellow humans. Go figure.

[erynnar]

Sabriana wrote...

Yes. For example, I do have family over there, and I love them dearly. But some things just make no sense.

My aunt told my cousin to save herself for marriage, because sex was a "dirty" thing. It confused all the hell out of me, because personally, I don't think that sex is dirty, and secondly why would you want to inflict something so obviously "dirty" to the one you love?

Over here, sex and nudity are a'okay. Because it's what we are, and it serves to procreate. Violence on the other hand, is frowned upon. It serves no other purpose but the destruction of fellow humans. Go figure.

And my first thought to your aunt...well it's only dirty if it's done right. Yeah I know, I am a cheeky monkey.  I feel sorry for your aunt. Her experience with sex must not be a good one.

[erynnar]

Elhanan wrote...

erynnar wrote...

I didn't it was. Just that Europeans, as whole, tend to have a much more mature attitude and reaction to nudity and sex. Does that mean immature, page 12 *cough*, stuff doesn't happen? No.  But we Americans don't take a modest approach.  We treat nudity and sex like a forbidden thing, and it makes people go to extremes (sucking crack off the ass of a hooker shall we say, while deploring such things in a public forum).  Modesty is one thing, but extremeism is another. And we Americans love to bounce from extreme to extreme. I wouldn't use us as an example of how to handle sex and nudity.

Some may say mature; I would say exposed. Europians have had nudity and sex as mainstream for some time, and have become somewhat calloused of it. While some view this as a good thing, I personally do not and prefer the imagination to nudity.

Oh I understand imagination vs having it shoved down your throat. I don't mean that. I mean our attitude our responses are way over the top.  Europeans aren't callaosed, so much as realistic about it.  We have sex, it is a part of life. Americans like to act like it's some dirty dark secret or that we only should do it for procreation.

Europeans don't do stupid **** like sue because someon saw a nipple!  OMG! A NIPPLE!!!!  Seriously, that woman who sued because she saw it, apparently never looks at her own in a mirror. Americans just go too far in the opposite direction which leads to all kinds of issues regarding one of our body's most natural, and wonderful things. We are, along side the dolphins, the only animals to have sex for fun and not just for producing infants. But Americans act like we are only supposed to do that in the movies, or TV.

[Cutlass Jack]

Sabriana wrote...

Yes. For example, I do have family over there, and I love them dearly. But some things just make no sense.

My aunt told my cousin to save herself for marriage, because sex was a "dirty" thing. It confused all the hell out of me, because personally, I don't think that sex is dirty, and secondly why would you want to inflict something so obviously "dirty" to the one you love?

Over here, sex and nudity are a'okay. Because it's what we are, and it serves to procreate. Violence on the other hand, is frowned upon. It serves no other purpose but the destruction of fellow humans. Go figure.

Well sex is dirty. Dirty dirty.

But that's why we have bathtubs.

[Elhanan]

Sabriana wrote...

Yes. For example, I do have family over there, and I love them dearly. But some things just make no sense.

My aunt told my cousin to save herself for marriage, because sex was a "dirty" thing. It confused all the hell out of me, because personally, I don't think that sex is dirty, and secondly why would you want to inflict something so obviously "dirty" to the one you love?

Over here, sex and nudity are a'okay. Because it's what we are, and it serves to procreate. Violence on the other hand, is frowned upon. It serves no other purpose but the destruction of fellow humans. Go figure.

You are savvy enough to understand that your aunt does not represent the whole. I am certainly not going to set myself as any standard of commonality either.

However, it seems to be factual that when one is exposed to nudity, profanity, and violence on a constant basis that it may become numbing; requiring the increase for more of that stimuli to achive the same level of effect sought that was previously experienced.

To paraphrase the movie Speed: "How far have we fallen when we go from 'I have only one regret that I have but one life to give for my country', to *insert profanity*

[Chromie]

erynnar wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

erynnar wrote...

I didn't it was. Just that Europeans, as whole, tend to have a much more mature attitude and reaction to nudity and sex. Does that mean immature, page 12 *cough*, stuff doesn't happen? No.  But we Americans don't take a modest approach.  We treat nudity and sex like a forbidden thing, and it makes people go to extremes (sucking crack off the ass of a hooker shall we say, while deploring such things in a public forum).  Modesty is one thing, but extremeism is another. And we Americans love to bounce from extreme to extreme. I wouldn't use us as an example of how to handle sex and nudity.

Some may say mature; I would say exposed. Europians have had nudity and sex as mainstream for some time, and have become somewhat calloused of it. While some view this as a good thing, I personally do not and prefer the imagination to nudity.

Oh I understand imagination vs having it shoved down your throat. I don't mean that. I mean our attitude our responses are way over the top.  Europeans aren't callaosed, so much as realistic about it.  We have sex, it is a part of life. Americans like to act like it's some dirty dark secret or that we only should do it for procreation.

Europeans don't do stupid **** like sue because someon saw a nipple!  OMG! A NIPPLE!!!!  Seriously, that woman who sued because she saw it, apparently never looks at her own in a mirror. Americans just go too far in the opposite direction which leads to all kinds of issues regarding one of our body's most natural, and wonderful things. We are, along side the dolphins, the only animals to have sex for fun and not just for producing infants. But Americans act like we are only supposed to do that in the movies, or TV.

I agree EuropAans aren't calloused about it. We Americans just act really skiitsh about sex for some stupid reason or another. It's as if the 60's never happened.

I'm still trying to understand "imagination to nudity"  Kubrick himself didn't like being forced to censor his work because of sex is such a dirty topic. 

"As a result, the novel's more sensual aspects were toned down in the final cut, leaving much to the viewer's imagination. Kubrick would later say that had he known the severity of the censorship he would face, he probably would not have made the film."

Movies themselves have come a long way. We need more video games treating sex as part of the story and not something just tacked on for fan service.

[xCirdanx]

Elhanan wrote...
However, it seems to be factual that when one is exposed to nudity, profanity, and violence on a constant basis that it may become numbing; requiring the increase for more of that stimuli to achive the same level of effect sought that was previously experienced.

Well everyone is different, form my experience i would say this is not the case.

What makes this self-censorship in games like DA2 even more silly is, that the game is 18+ (at last here), getting treated like you can´t handle nudity in an adult game made, for adults doesn´t sit well with me.

But this game has more serious problems like this.

[erynnar]

Yeah it isn't porn if two consenting adults are naked and making love. There is a difference. And I think Witcher2 (from what I've seen) treats it as a natural part of two adults being in love.

The same for my fanfic, which trolls have accused me of just wanting to fulfill sex fantasies. I say, my characters are adults who have relationships with each other, that includes a physical component. Now I try to do it tastefully and leave more to my readers minds. Is it porn, I leave my readers to decide that one.

I think DA could do better and make it a natural part of two adults who love or lust after one another.

[erynnar]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Sabriana wrote...

Yes. For example, I do have family over there, and I love them dearly. But some things just make no sense.

My aunt told my cousin to save herself for marriage, because sex was a "dirty" thing. It confused all the hell out of me, because personally, I don't think that sex is dirty, and secondly why would you want to inflict something so obviously "dirty" to the one you love?

Over here, sex and nudity are a'okay. Because it's what we are, and it serves to procreate. Violence on the other hand, is frowned upon. It serves no other purpose but the destruction of fellow humans. Go figure.

Well sex is dirty. Dirty dirty.

But that's why we have bathtubs.

:lol::lol::lol: very true!

[philippe willaume]

Hello
Really two pages on that is a bit non sensical.

Elhanan, you hit square on the head.
We got desensitised in Europe because we have 3000 years of naked people in sculpture and painting in museum.
There have constant war in Europe for pretty much as long
And some parts of Europe have separated the state from the church.

Luckily for us, thanks to Teutates, Epona and Cernunos, the Venus of Milo only lost the arms but she still has the important bits. So we can swear and shot each other at leisure whilst naked.

Other than a dubious comical value that does not really make sense does it?
Well it is just and extreme allegory of what you are saying.

You can see “nuit et brouillard” or “irreversible” not to mention reading or seeing “120 days of Sodom” until the cows come home, you are not going to be desensitised to violence or sexual content, take my word for it.
Response to those stimulus is really a cognitive response that is filtered through your system of value and you ability to relate to other.

I am the first one to agree that have a naked woman or for that matter a women in with t-shirt/ one piece swimming suit 2 sizes smaller does not do a lot for the cause of seeing women as equal partners. Not to mention the mandatory and very often completely gratuitous sex scene in the late 80 really 90 movies

However really, the average teen pregnancy in the UK is about 13 year old and in country like Scandinavia it is about 18.
Now UK has almost a puritanical approach to sexual education and erogenous zone, I could agree that streaking and the page 3 of the sun might temper my argument but really on that aspect the UK is closer to the US than it is to Continental Europe.

Speaking of which I have a few friends in the US of A, males and females, who happen not to giggle at nipples.


Phil

Modifié par philippe willaume, 02 mai 2011 - 08:39 .

[Elhanan]

erynnar wrote...

Oh I understand imagination vs having it shoved down your throat. I don't mean that. I mean our attitude our responses are way over the top.  Europeans aren't callaosed, so much as realistic about it.  We have sex, it is a part of life. Americans like to act like it's some dirty dark secret or that we only should do it for procreation.

Europeans don't do stupid **** like sue because someon saw a nipple!  OMG! A NIPPLE!!!!  Seriously, that woman who sued because she saw it, apparently never looks at her own in a mirror. Americans just go too far in the opposite direction which leads to all kinds of issues regarding one of our body's most natural, and wonderful things. We are, along side the dolphins, the only animals to have sex for fun and not just for producing infants. But Americans act like we are only supposed to do that in the movies, or TV.

I do not equate a woman suing over nudity or a hot cup of coffee with anyone I know; just those seeking a fast payday.They are not all Americans; not even the majority

Ringo12 wrote...

I agree EuropAans aren't calloused about it. We Americans just act really skiitsh about sex for some stupid reason or another. It's as if the 60's never happened.

I'm still trying to understand "imagination to nudity"  Kubrick himself didn't like being forced to censor his work because of sex is such a dirty topic. 

"As a result, the novel's more sensual aspects were toned down in the final cut, leaving much to the viewer's imagination. Kubrick would later say that had he known the severity of the censorship he would face, he probably would not have made the film."

Movies themselves have come a long way. We need more video games treating sex as part of the story and not something just tacked on for fan service.

Movies have come along way; only thing missing is the flushing as sound effects. And while I enjoyed some of his works, I hardly hold Kubrick up as a morale standard either.

But a mature discussion or storyline of sex does not require nudity to be told well. And there are far too many outstanding examples of this to post.

Modifié par Elhanan, 02 mai 2011 - 08:12 .

[FedericoV]

Yxunomei wrote...


 Most of us loved Origins and Awakening..Bioware made another Epic game on a different setting (thedas) mind you apart from the forgotten realms which the community greatly accepted. I am getting tired of people whinning and complaining about why DA:2 is a complete bust etc., I am one of many that got really frustrated about the release of 1.01 patch for the xbox 360, but guys BIoware did delivered story-wise.  

I don't know. I am very ambivalent and perplexed about DA2. It's one of the strangest and most divisive gaming experience I ever had. Some things are very good. Others are plain bad. Some things are pretty and refined. Others are so rushed that  the devs should apologize to their customers. There are glimpse of greatness here and there, but they never turn in to a solid gaming experience. I really don't know  what to say, but I would never advise the game at full price to a friend.

But more to the point, the game do not deliver story-wise. Because there is no interaction with the story. And if you cannot interact with the story of a CRPG, the story cannot "deliver". I have the impression that reading the metrics/focus group result of DA:O, the devs observed that players feel compelled to choose the optimal solution to every quest. So, instead of removing the optimal solution and working on shades of grey, they solved the issue removing any kind of choice and try to force a dramatic ending to each major quest. The result for me was that at the end I completely feel disconnected from the story. I felt I was observing the story of the writers (good or bad) and not playing it. The exact opposite of deliver.

Modifié par FedericoV, 02 mai 2011 - 08:27 .

[Mad-Max90]

I'm sick and tired of people complaining about people complaining about the many things they did wrong in this game.
The story, was not finished, you have just as much knowledge of the champion as varric, because all you do is play varric's memory of him, therefore when you spend roughly 40 hours playing the character you still have no idea where he is after he/she defeated the not so great "evil", or to put it more simply you play through a 3 year "decade" they never try to explain what happens during those three year hiatuses( I think that's what you call it) so the acts are never given a proper bridge or carryover.

So please, get over yourself, I can't help it if I have a problem with the game, I didn't like it, so sue me

[Elhanan]

Mad-Max90 wrote...

I'm sick and tired of people complaining about people complaining about the many things they did wrong in this game.
The story, was not finished, you have just as much knowledge of the champion as varric, because all you do is play varric's memory of him, therefore when you spend roughly 40 hours playing the character you still have no idea where he is after he/she defeated the not so great "evil", or to put it more simply you play through a 3 year "decade" they never try to explain what happens during those three year hiatuses( I think that's what you call it) so the acts are never given a proper bridge or carryover.

So please, get over yourself, I can't help it if I have a problem with the game, I didn't like it, so sue me

Pot; meet kettle....

[Mad-Max90]

^ that WAS meant to be the joke, but seeing as how people automatically think random people are dumber than themselves, I guess I should have said something, but that would ruin the subtlety of the joke, but to be honest people complaining because of another person's point of view over a video game, it's kind of pathetic

[Dragoonlordz]

Sexual preferences and desires as well as maturity doesn't stop and start at national borders. Indivudial people all feel different ways about it. The only real border to sex is in religious and/or cultural and upbringing usually both linked. I might think sex is great and my neighbour thinks its dirty both living in same street in same country. In an 18 rated games like DA franchise it should have sexual innuendo and even nudity while if it was lower age rated game then it should cut back on such things.

p.s. a) imagination only gets you so far. practice makes perfect. c) the only reason you exist is because your parents had sex. d) your morallity may be different to the next persons so they shouldn't be limited based on your own shortcomings in general because of your own upbringing and religous or cultural views.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 02 mai 2011 - 09:42 .

[Mad-Max90]

Yes because sexual innuendos are so mature, Good lord man, did you ever go to elementary school and talk to your friends at recess

[erynnar]

FedericoV wrote...

Yxunomei wrote...


 Most of us loved Origins and Awakening..Bioware made another Epic game on a different setting (thedas) mind you apart from the forgotten realms which the community greatly accepted. I am getting tired of people whinning and complaining about why DA:2 is a complete bust etc., I am one of many that got really frustrated about the release of 1.01 patch for the xbox 360, but guys BIoware did delivered story-wise.  

I don't know. I am very ambivalent and perplexed about DA2. It's one of the strangest and most divisive gaming experience I ever had. Some things are very good. Others are plain bad. Some things are pretty and refined. Others are so rushed that  the devs should apologize to their customers. There are glimpse of greatness here and there, but they never turn in to a solid gaming experience. I really don't know  what to say, but I would never advise the game at full price to a friend.

But more to the point, the game do not deliver story-wise. Because there is no interaction with the story. And if you cannot interact with the story of a CRPG, the story cannot "deliver". I have the impression that reading the metrics/focus group result of DA:O, the devs observed that players feel compelled to choose the optimal solution to every quest. So, instead of removing the optimal solution and working on shades of grey, they solved the issue removing any kind of choice and try to force a dramatic ending to each major quest. The result for me was that at the end I completely feel disconnected from the story. I felt I was observing the story of the writers (good or bad) and not playing it. The exact opposite of deliver.

I felt the same way. I almost felt bipolar (and no, never diagnosed with it, I am pretty even keel). Parts I loved, and parts I just hate about the game. Sooooo confusing!

Links because Auto asked...
http://social.biowar...2552208#2552222 Origin story forum.
http://www.fanfictio...ays_The_Deepest Origin AU story on ff.net

http://social.biowar...92322/1#1592322 AU after the Blight that the Origin story is based on forum
http://www.fanfictio...136/1/Soulmates Same on ff.net

http://social.biowar...2584948#2584958 Shorts and poems based on characters thoughts on my PC from the above stories (Forum)
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5964056/1/ Same on ff.net

I prefer to read on FF.net just because I have had formatting issues on BSN (no offense to the site).  And if I wasn't supposed to put these here, even though someone asked, mea culpa.

[Dragoonlordz]

Mad-Max90 wrote...

Yes because sexual innuendos are so mature, Good lord man, did you ever go to elementary school and talk to your friends at recess

They are a form of humour much like wit and satire. If your going to try to argue with me at least pick something that you are competent in using to your advantage. It's a far cry from sticking whoopie cushions on a teachers chair or pulling a girls pigtails. If anything satire, wit, sarcasm and innuendo are all more adult forms of humour. But any age can be immature or mature within reason so the whole recess comment is a tad irrelevant.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 02 mai 2011 - 10:27 .