380 réponses à ce sujet

[Boiny Bunny]

Mad-Max90 wrote...

Did I say a bug was going to get me a lawsuit or did you just imply it? Like I said actual false advertisement is worthy of a lawsuit, which like I said the games marketing was riddled with false advertising, I'm not saying I would win, but I am saying it is illegal, and now I do not trust this team.

Again, I'm asking you to please provide an example.

What did they promise would be in the game that wasn't - making their advertising illegal?

[Mad-Max90]

I do have the sig edition and thank you for the tip I will use it as soon as gears of war 3 beta is pulled down, gotta get my time in before it's gone

[Mad-Max90]

Give me a second please, I was just in a thread with a whole list of them

[Boiny Bunny]

Not a problem at all

[Mad-Max90]

@dragoonlordz I had the vocabulary of a Tarantino film, now I am much more subdued with my cursing than I was in elementary school, why because it has become somewhat immature to do so without provocation

[Yrkoon]

Elhanan wrote...

erynnar wrote...

element eater wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

Not only that, but, ironically, the Brood Mother is....nude.  And it's an exagerated nudity too  (she's got 8 bare  ******  lol)
.

brilliant point right there lol

And she plays with them...um...ew. Not because of the naked boob..erm boobs, or the action, but ew to whose doing it. ROFL! *shudder*

Knew this was going to used against me, but what was more horrifying: the Broodmother herself, or the speech and revelation leading up to her?

For myself, she could have been just a quivering Jello mold, as the tale is what disturbed me.

You're delving into things like the psychological, and even the subconcious.

Bioware created that scene by employing several different elements (verbal, visual, audio, background, blood and guts splattered all over the walls where Hespith was,  etc), all of which came together to produce the "mood" you got  (whether you're aware of that or not).  You can try to convince yourself that you'd have been equally "disturbed" had the Brood Mother been just a quivering mold of Jello,  or if they had decided to use upbeat Mario music for that scene or whatever, but you'd be doing just that:  Trying to  consciously convince yourself of something.

The fact of the matter is that the scene disturbed you because it was designed from the ground up to do so.  And that includes  The violence and the nudity specifically put in it.  You literally  don't know what kind of feeling you would have come away with had they done anything differently.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 03 mai 2011 - 01:51 .

[Mad-Max90]

Found it, sorry for the wait, as I had to do a bit of searching.


Sabriana wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

A good reason for limited choices?

Erm... Does this sound like BW promised limited choices?:

"Embark upon an all-new adventure that takes place across an entire decade and shapes itself around every decision you make."

Nice try, though. Ghehe.

Holy cow, being lied to is terribly devastating. To think that I actually believed it... what a fool I was.

Yes. NIce try. It worked this one time, but it won't work ever again with me, personally. This is the very last time I will ever trust Bioware again. And with what is creeping up in "customer milking" I am well advised to simply wait for a few month and see what is thrown out as an "RPG".

That quote is coming from the current ad on Steam.

I've just listened to the official podcast #1 where you can hear Mike Laidlaw say:

"In Dragon Age 2 it is the player who decides what happens, rather than it being this pre-determined plot."

So, the critique that BW got from players who are disappointed by the lack of choices that have impact on the world is valid. BW has gone too far. It's not only marketing talk (like the quote from the ad in Steam). It is a promise from the guy who is lead designer and creative director.

About the linearity of the story he wants "you to tell us to tell how this world turns out" and "[...] achieve your objects in your own way and work through these political and historical situations and then we advance time forward to take a look at how that turned out. How the decisions you made effected Kirkwall, Hawke, the people around Hawke, and so on". He wants "the players [to be] engaged and have the feeling that they are telling their story".

This is what I see in the game. Any decisions made by Hawke are cosmetic. Dialogue line changes, a cameo here and there and at best an alternate quest. Hawke never makes any decisions in the main story. It is the main story that makes the decisions for Hawke. Everything plays out the same in the end.

Edit: So, I agree with you, Sabrina...  I've added the above to make it painfully clear.

[Mad-Max90]

Sorry if it's a bit sloppy, I'm on my iPhone typing in-between matches of gears of war 3

[Dragoonlordz]

Mad-Max90 wrote...

@dragoonlordz I had the vocabulary of a Tarantino film, now I am much more subdued with my cursing than I was in elementary school, why because it has become somewhat immature to do so without provocation

Yet your comprehension clearly hasn't developed to a large degree since elementary school because your response or retort to my reply has no relevance to the content within the aforementioned reply. Now I have nothing against you personally but when I say 'innuendo' and you tell me in a snide way that it's immature, to which I reply innuendo is a mature form of humour... I fail to see the relevance regarding your reply (quoted) is towards the original discussion as it does not matter what you think is mature or not. The simple fact is innuendo by nature is a mature form of humour given the person to which partakes in the humour must be mature enough to understand the meaning behind the joke. A child is far, far less likley to do so and the older you are and experienced the more deeper/meanings you can apply to it. Like I said it's a lot more mature than what you might have done as a child making fart noises with your armpits which is of a less mature nature given you wouldn't need an understanding of male/female relationships and sexual practices in order to understand the humour.

Essentially the topic is done between us, your nit picking on a word I use is of no consequence to me and I have merely entertained a debate with you about it out of jest, but boredom is setting in regarding your targetting of one word.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 03 mai 2011 - 02:09 .

[Boiny Bunny]

Ok so we have:

"Embark upon an all-new adventure that takes place across an entire decade and shapes itself around every decision you make."

And:

"In Dragon Age 2 it is the player who decides what happens, rather than it being this pre-determined plot."

Now I'm happy to concede that Dragon Age 2 doesn't do very well on the choices front when compared to Origins. It doesn't. I was very disappointed with the decisions and impacts in DA2.

But to say that either of those are absolutely false statements and that such advertisments are illegal is ridiculous. Especially given that the second one is not actually an advertisment, but a comment by a developer during development, which does not in any way constitute a promise or guarantee.

I agree with you that the decisions made are mostly cosmetic. You fight through the same areas with different enemies. You still fight the same two bosses. You can't even choose what you say in most conversations (instead just being able to choose your tone of voice). But, there are still decisions in the game, and the world does form around them eventually. There is no way around this.

[Mad-Max90]

"Embark upon an all-new adventure that takes place across an entire decade and shapes itself around every decision you make."

"In Dragon Age 2 it is the player who decides what happens, rather than it being this pre-determined plot."

"you to tell us to tell how this world turns out"

Those were just a few of the many that were spilled out of Lailow's mouth, I presented my evidence as you asked

[Mad-Max90]

Yes but when you consider that dev diaries are essentially a new form of advertisement, that is a lie, as they never said hey, that was going to be ingame but due to time constraints we were unable to do so

[Dragoonlordz]

@Boiny

We as customer rely to a great degree about the words used and way in which they are used when describing their product because we use them to decide if we wish to purchase it on those merits. Just like the DLC phrased in the manor of armour, weapons and accessorys for all companions it makes a person think armour and weapons and accessorys for all. Which in reality is not the case. All I'm saying is what they say should be clear precise and accurate of which I felt personally was not the case on this title.

I for one did not feel the game lived up to the comments made by the devs/interviews as well as marketing. Such as spans a decade (7 of which are time skips with mere coupld phrases between them) felt cheap to me and not what I took from the meaning of spans a decade, the same applies to choices effects did not live up to the meaning given by interpretation of words used by them prior to my purchase. There are many other examples where specifically Mike said such things that gave the impression of something which turned out to be not true in my opinion.

How they phrase things and words they use make a big differnce on whether or not I buy something. My fault partially for taking them at face value rather than reading between the lines maybe, but all the same that just means they should of been vastly clearer on the meanings behind there words.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 03 mai 2011 - 02:18 .

[Boiny Bunny]

Yes, I appreciate what you are trying to say. The problem with you argument is that anything coming out of Laidlaw's mouth is not offically considered as an 'advertisment' - but rather just a comment made by a developer during development.

Do you remember all of the things that were discussed by developers during the development of the original Fable? Like being able to carve your name into a tree as a child and as you grew up, the tree would grow and the carving with it? None of this is advertising. It's simply a developer expressing what they would like to put into a game, or their perspective on the game.

Let me be clear:

I feel that Bioware were somewhat deceptive about the decisions that could be made in DA2 - which were dissapointing without a doubt. However, none of this is illegal in any way.

I have no problem with anything you say about the advertisments (or developer comments) except that you are under the mis-conception that they are illegal.

[Mad-Max90]

Mad-Max90 wrote...

@dragoonlordz I had the vocabulary of a Tarantino film, now I am much more subdued with my cursing than I was in elementary school, why because it has become somewhat immature to do so without provocation


Yet your comprehension clearly hasn't developed to a large degree since elementary school because your response or retort to my reply has no relevance to the content within the aforementioned reply. Now I have nothing against you personally but when I say 'innuendo' and you tell me in a snide way that it's immature, to which I reply innuendo is a mature form of humour... I fail to see the relevance regarding your reply (quoted) is towards the original discussion as it does not matter what you think is mature or not. The simple fact is innuendo by nature is a mature form of humour given the person to which partakes in the humour must be mature enough to understand the meaning behind the joke. A child is far, far less likley to do so and the older you are and experienced the more deeper/meanings you can apply to it. Like I said it's a lot more mature than what you might have done as a child making fart noises with your armpits which is of a less mature nature given you wouldn't need an understanding of male/female relationships and sexual practices in order to understand the humour.

Essentially the topic is done between us, your nit picking on a word I use is of no consequence to me and I have merely entertained a debate with you about it out of jest, but boredom is setting in regarding your targetting of one word.


Dude, I love your quick and timely use of a thesaurus, all I'm saying is sexual innuendoes(mainly the ones in the game) are on the immature side, you can milk out the dictionary all you want, you just end up sounding like a pompous ass, but hey if it makes you feel better go ahead makemyday. Oh and my reply was completely relevant because as a child, my friends and I would say things that were derogatory and many of them were sexual innuendoes, I'm sorry if I find sexual innuendoes immature now that I'm twenty

[Boiny Bunny]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

@Boiny

We as customer rely to a great degree about the words used and way in which they are used when describing their product because we use them todecide if we wish to purchase it on those merits.

I for one did not feel the game lived up to the comments made by the devs/interviews as well as marketing. Such as spans a decade (7 of which are time skips with mere coupld phrases between them) felt cheap to me and not what I took from the meaning of spans a decade, the same applies to choices effects did not live up to the meaning given by interpretation of words used by them prior to my purchase. There are many other examples where specifically Mike said such things that gave the impression of something which turned out to be not true in my opinion.

How they phrase things and words they use make a big differnce on whether or not I buy something. My fault partially for taking them at face value rather than reading between the lines maybe, but all the same that just means they should of been vastly clearer on the meanings behind there words.

Absolutely, I agree with what you say.  They should have been clearer.  But there is only a certain extent to which they can be clear without spoiling the plot or describing every single aspect of the game publicly.

But, consumer laws do not protect against this.  Again, 'Caveat Emptor' - let the buyer beware.  There are a great deal of reviews you could have read, or entire video walkthroughs of the game (or any aspect of it) that you could have viewed before making your decision to purchase.  I won't presume that you did purchase before considering such options, but the fact that such options are available to you negates the points that you couldn't possibly have had any idea what to expect.

At any rate, I feel that the game was hyped, and failed to deliver on many fronts - but nowhere near as much as Fable did.  No lawsuits there either.  It's not illegal - it's just 'dodgy business practice', if you like.

[Dragoonlordz]

Boiny Bunny wrote...

Let me be clear:

I feel that Bioware were somewhat deceptive about the decisions that could be made in DA2 - which were dissapointing without a doubt. However, none of this is illegal in any way.

I have no problem with anything you say about the advertisments (or developer comments) except that you are under the mis-conception that they are illegal.

They arn't illegal by any means.

They were however misleading to me but I can't sue them for my interpretations of their comments.

I do wish they would think before they speak though. If they talk about something and then choose not to follow through then they should explain their change of plans. The problem lays with the issue that most of the misleading information (imho) comes only from the actual marketing and interviews promoting the product not in a 'what I want to see' but more of 'what is'.
 

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 03 mai 2011 - 02:27 .

[Dragoonlordz]

Mad-Max90 wrote...
Dude, I love your quick and timely use of a thesaurus, all I'm saying is sexual innuendoes(mainly the ones in the game) are on the immature side, you can milk out the dictionary all you want, you just end up sounding like a pompous ass, but hey if it makes you feel better go ahead makemyday. Oh and my reply was completely relevant because as a child, my friends and I would say things that were derogatory and many of them were sexual innuendoes, I'm sorry if I find sexual innuendoes immature now that I'm twenty

I'm 30 and personally think your still at that same immature level you was as a child given how upset you are over a simple difference of opinion. Get over it already.

If you don't like how I talk, good for you but it is what it is and I have spoken this way for more years than you have been alive so I don't see it changing now regardless of what you think that makes me seem like.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 03 mai 2011 - 02:29 .

[Boiny Bunny]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Boiny Bunny wrote...

Let me be clear:

I feel that Bioware were somewhat deceptive about the decisions that could be made in DA2 - which were dissapointing without a doubt. However, none of this is illegal in any way.

I have no problem with anything you say about the advertisments (or developer comments) except that you are under the mis-conception that they are illegal.

They arn't illegal by any means.

Bingo.  That's all I'm saying

Dragoonlordz wrote...

They were however misleading to me but I can't sue them for my interpretations of their comments.

I do wish they would think before they speak though. If they talk about something and then choose not to follow through then they should explain their change of plans. The problem lays with the issue that most of the misleading information (imho) comes only from the actual marketing and interviews promoting the product not in a what I want to see but more of what is.
 

Everything else you wrote I 100% agree with.   Same thing with Peter whats-his-name with Fable.  Especially him.  He should be banned from ever talking about a game of his before it comes out.

Developers thinking about what they have to say before they say it would be a great help.  Also, showing us bits of the game that we might actually care about.

[Mad-Max90]

I'm 30 and personally think your still at that same immature level you was as a child given how upset you are over a simple difference of opinion. Get over it already.

Oh yes, and the personal attacks on my education, is really matture for a 30 year old, I can't help it if I happen to find sexual innuendoes immature, that doesn't make it fact, nor does your supporting it for that matter, I don't care if you like them, but obviously you care a whole lot that I don't like them, let's not forget who cast the first stone here, all I did was say I find them immature, you went on a Internet rampage.

[Dragoonlordz]

@Mad
I explained my view and original use of word which seemed to offend you, I clearly have no intention of continued fighting with you over something so trivial so give it up already.

@Boiny
I have never liked Molyneux personally but with Fable he has done one thing I do think would be worthwhile applying to the Bioware titles maybe (given enough development time). That is they made Fable latest one for consoles and (re)made/rebuild it seporately with regards to controls and UI for PC version after console release. A lot of PC users here I see complaining about dumbed down for consoles so that would solve that issue but becomes a time limitation issue.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 03 mai 2011 - 02:35 .

[Elhanan]

Yrkoon wrote...

You're delving into things like the psychological, and even the subconcious.

Bioware created that scene by employing several different elements (verbal, visual, audio, background, blood and guts splattered all over the walls where Hespith was,  etc), all of which came together to produce the "mood" you got  (whether you're aware of that or not).  You can try to convince yourself that you'd have been equally "disturbed" had the Brood Mother been just a quivering mold of Jello,  or if they had decided to use upbeat Mario music for that scene or whatever, but you'd be doing just that:  Trying to  consciously convince yourself of something.

The fact of the matter is that the scene disturbed you because it was designed from the ground up to do so.  And that includes  The violence and the nudity specifically put in it.  You literally  don't know what kind of feeling you would have come away with had they done anything differently.

Yes; think I do. As I have seen both good reveals (eg; Alien, Silence of the Lambs) and not so good (eg; It, The Langoliers. Leviathon), including a few decades of fim and game watching experience, I believe I am able to distinguish between them.

In DAO, I was not horrified at the Broodmother. Ever. I was horrified at the concept over what created that mass of flesh. Unlike many, I do not race the clock to finish games, and I tend to replay content quite frequently, so the reveal was not some Jaws-esque payoff for me, but was a well placed symbol of what Bioware intended.

Now you go ahead and believe what you will; I will do the same. But in many cases, the exclusion of profanity, nudity, and excess violence is not missed.

[Boiny Bunny]

Yes - I agree with that also. Many styles of games should be developed slightly independently for PC and consoles.

IMO it's better to start with the PC, where you can build a game that has the best possible interface and control set up, not to mention very little restriction on what is possible in a technical sense (can have great graphics, or vast environments with no loading screens, etc.)

THEN they can port it to the console and down-scale it.

As opposed to developing the console versions (which are impressive when played on the consoles), then releasing an identical port on the PC (which turns out to be not that impressive as a PC game).

DA:O is a good example of the first process (starting with the PC), DA2 the second (starting with the consoles - or rather, creating 3 identical versions, as opposed to allowing the PC version to use the superior PC capabilities).

[Elhanan]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Mad-Max90 wrote...
Dude, I love your quick and timely use of a thesaurus, all I'm saying is sexual innuendoes(mainly the ones in the game) are on the immature side, you can milk out the dictionary all you want, you just end up sounding like a pompous ass, but hey if it makes you feel better go ahead makemyday. Oh and my reply was completely relevant because as a child, my friends and I would say things that were derogatory and many of them were sexual innuendoes, I'm sorry if I find sexual innuendoes immature now that I'm twenty

I'm 30 and personally think your still at that same immature level you was as a child given how upset you are over a simple difference of opinion. Get over it already.

If you don't like how I talk, good for you but it is what it is and I have spoken this way for more years than you have been alive so I don't see it changing now regardless of what you think that makes me seem like.

How quickly they turn to devour their own when wounded; tis in their nature....

[Mad-Max90]

I'm not even fighting with you, thats the thing you took offense over nothing, I already stated none of our opinions = fact, to be honest like I stated I have no problem with you liking innuendoes, I just don't have a taste for them, and you personally attacked me for my preference, I'm sorry your such a volatile person, but please don't act like I'm out to get you, I have better things in life than pick a internet fight with a 30 year old random