380 réponses à ce sujet

[Mad-Max90]

How quickly they turn to devour their own when wounded; tis in their nature....

The sad thing is it's true, and for once I find myself agreeing with you. It's actually kind of funny really, the hypocrisy in his statement
"I'm 30 and personally think your still at that same immature level you was as a child given how upset you are over a simple difference of opinion. Get over it already"

That calls for a REALLY...REALLY, and just because he is ten years older means the very same statement he made about me doesn't count for himself

[Dragoonlordz]

Elhanan wrote...

Yes; think I do. As I have seen both good reveals (eg; Alien, Silence of the Lambs) and not so good (eg; It, The Langoliers. Leviathon), including a few decades of fim and game watching experience, I believe I am able to distinguish between them.

In DAO, I was not horrified at the Broodmother. Ever. I was horrified at the concept over what created that mass of flesh. Unlike many, I do not race the clock to finish games, and I tend to replay content quite frequently, so the reveal was not some Jaws-esque payoff for me, but was a well placed symbol of what Bioware intended.

Now you go ahead and believe what you will; I will do the same. But in many cases, the exclusion of profanity, nudity, and excess violence is not missed.

In a 18 rated game like DA2 I do think it should have nudity, sex, violence and profanity without being limited provided it is in relation to the story being told or the maturity of the title. I don't think anyone under the age rating should be playing it regardless of parental interpretation of it's rating, we all see what (could) result from impressionable ages being influenced by media both in the news and even on the streets but that is just me as a bit old fashioned thinking ratings do mean something for a reason.

In a 18 rated game however I see no problem with breasts or heads popping off because by that age one would assume the person playing would be mature enough to handle it and know the difference. There are exceptions to this being those of mental instability but then the guardians and people who care for them should be aware of what is and is not acceptable for the state of mental health of the person involved. I don't actually like the romance sex scenes in Bioware titles recently to coin the phrase (dumbed down) of sexual contact in the game while the dialogue is there the reality of romance is hidden behind smoke and mirrors.

It doesn't offend me but I do find it odd that one second we are covered from head to toe in the blood of our in-game enemies yet a breast and nudity is hidden to a large degree. Though mainstream games are not porn and would not expect it to be the main focus of the game by any means I just find it ironic if sex is in the game regarding a story or plot based nature that the intimacy is hidden behind pretty much a veil.

-just saying-

[SerenityInFire]

I think DA2 is a good game, the core gameplay is really good - the most important part by the way - but the other important elements for a game like this just aren't very well thought out. I personally think this game could have used another good 6 months of development.

[Dragoonlordz]

Elhanan wrote...
How quickly they turn to devour their own when wounded; tis in their nature....

Elhanan to Mad...

Have you actually taken the time to re-read your posts? Breathe? Switch to de-caf?

Mad to Elhanan...

The sad thing is it's true, and for once I find myself agreeing with you. It's actually kind of funny really, the hypocrisy in his statement

Oh the irony... 

P.s. You (originally) brought up your age in relation to the discussion not me so to quote yourself...

Mad-Max90 wrote...
It's actually kind of funny really, the hypocrisy in his statement

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 03 mai 2011 - 03:16 .

[Darth_Shepard]

First off, let me say that I did enjoy the game, even though I feel it isn't the best game BioWare has made. The characters were some of the deepest and most intricate characters BioWare has ever created, and I thank them for that.

I felt as though I didn't have the same overall motivation throughout the game that I've had in other BioWare titles. The thing that got to me the most was the simple fact that there was never an overall presence of a true, defining antagonist until much later into the game. In games like Mass Effect, you had Saren. In DA:O, you had Loghain and an Archdemon. These characters were introduced very early in the game, and the looming presences of these characters remain with the player and his/her character throughout the game. The constant threat of these characters, the build up process the player goes through to be able to face them, and the need to stop them no matter the cost were aspects I felt DA2 lacked. I never minded the idea that I was to play in one city over a period of time. It was the simple fact that I never knew what the whole ordeal was about and who the big bad guy was until I closed in on the end.

I have finished the game, and I still play the game. but the lack of a single, strong antagonist throughout the game experience really put a dampener on the game for me.

[Elhanan]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

In a 18 rated game like DA2 I do think it should have nudity, sex, violence and profanity without being limited provided it is in relation to the story being told or the maturity of the title. I don't think anyone under the age rating should be playing it regardless of parental interpretation of it's rating, we all see what (could) result from impressionable ages being influenced by media both in the news and even on the streets but that is just me as a bit old fashioned thinking ratings do mean something for a reason.

In a 18 rated game however I see no problem with breasts or heads popping off because by that age one would assume the person playing would be mature enough to handle it and know the difference. There are exceptions to this being those of mental instability but then the guardians and people who care for them should be aware of what is and is not acceptable for the state of mental health of the person involved. I don't actually like the romance sex scenes in Bioware titles recently to coin the phrase (dumbed down) of sexual contact in the game while the dialogue is there the reality of romance is hidden behind smoke and mirrors.

It doesn't offend me but I do find it odd that one second we are covered from head to toe in the blood of our in-game enemies yet a breast and nudity is hidden to a large degree. Though mainstream games are not porn and would not expect it to be the main focus of the game by any means I just find it ironic if sex is in the game regarding a story or plot based nature that the intimacy is hidden behind pretty much a veil.

-just saying-

I have made at least one major error: Folks do seem to miss their vitual naked pixels. Sad and disturbing when this often the first mod to hit the possible add-ons. My bad for forgetting this.
 
And maybe it is the same for the violence; uncertain. Personally, based on this franchise, I prefer the Death blows of DAO over the cutscenes of DA2 as I was able to Pause and take screenies of my own mini-mobies; something this Techless One usually cannot do. But I lower the Gore settings on both games; do not desire their inclusion. It does not frighten me; just revolts me. Hate slasher films, too. And I have not seen mods for enhanced gore.

Many of this forum seems to hate the exploding bodies. Too frequent? Too unrealistic?  Or perhaps it is seen too much elsewhere? Not my area of expertise.

As for profanity, as mentioned earlier, I believe it would not be missed. Maybe there is a market for adding cussing to games that I am unaware of currently; sure have missed that thus far. I was not offended by the increased inclusion in DA2, but I was disappointed; prefer the majority of Ferelden idioms over our own global swearing customs.

But in my opinion, the increased inclusion of these 'features' is not a plus for games, or humainty. It certainly does not seem to be progress.

[Boiny Bunny]

@ Elhanan: Just to add my own perspective to what you said, I prefer games to be immersive above all else. Violence that is over the top, or without reason breaks immersion for me, as would unnecessary nudity. But having absolutely no violence, and absolutely no nudity, in a situation where either or both was appropriate, breaks immersion just as much for me.  Same goes for swearing.

There is no reason that a mature game should include any of these 3 things, and there is no reason that it should not.  It's really just about honouring the context into which it is placed.

I suppose that in the end, everybody will have a different perspective on what level of violence and nudity/sex is appropriate in a game - it isn't uncommon to see a violence slider or checkbox nowadays, perhaps one for nudity/sexual content is needed as well - though may be tricky to implement.

Modifié par Boiny Bunny, 03 mai 2011 - 03:38 .

[Mad-Max90]

I can't believe I actually find myself figuratively sleeping with the enemy, but I do support elthanan and what he is saying and also bunny, I find too much over the top violence is dumb, but there are great games with over the top violence though such as gears of war 3, but they get away with it because the don't also sexualize women, now there are also great games with subtle nudity not too much but certainly enough ala mass effect 1. I do see myself agreeing with both of you and I find both of your arguments respectable, now dragoonlordz, I guess I will be the first to act my age and drop this little mudthrowing like it's yesterday's news, but if you wish to continue you may, I have done absolutely nothing to you but say you sounded like a pompous ass, from what I can read you do, but yet you still bring this up after saying you are done with it, here is to starting fresh and hoping we can all come to civil disagreements

[Elhanan]

Boiny Bunny wrote...

@ Elhanan: Just to add my own perspective to what you said, I prefer games to be immersive above all else. Violence that is over the top, or without reason breaks immersion for me, as would unnecessary nudity. But having absolutely no violence, and absolutely no nudity, in a situation where either or both was appropriate, breaks immersion just as much for me.  Same goes for swearing.

There is no reason that a mature game should include any of these 3 things, and there is no reason that it should not.  It's really just about honouring the context into which it is placed.

I suppose that in the end, everybody will have a different perspective on what level of violence and nudity/sex is appropriate in a game - it isn't uncommon to see a violence slider or checkbox nowadays, perhaps one for nudity/sexual content is needed as well - though may be tricky to implement.

The issue I see is the lack of control seen by the industry as a whole. Often, few to no boundaries are seen at all.

For nudity, I am more of a fan of the hidden display such as was seen in Spartacus or As Good As It Gets, rather than full reveals. I prefer to see violence contained more; hence my use of the Gore options, though I wish they were not needed. But for profanity, a lack of self-discipline is the only reason I see for inclusion. Using DA2, I found the current modern terms more distracting than immersive; finding myself comparing the more immersive and humorous terms of the former game. Plus, Andraste's flaming knickers does not require use of the swear filter.

[DaKuban]

AlexXIV wrote...

If people hate DA2 then most likely because they loved DA:O. Because they could just 'deal with it' if it wasn't important to them. And for those who are sorry for their money ... not every lesson in life is for free.

And they didn't deliver story wise. Too many holes and nonsense in the story can ruin a story and it does partly so for me. I am someone who doesn't give much about combat. And since the game only consists of combat and story, it is the story I have an issue with.

I know what You mean Alex, I think the same way. Bioware spent too much time making the combat system great, but DA is not only about that, I would say, is more about the story behind every decision you make, is about options and creativity. Also, Have you guys noticed how many glitches DA 2 has ? Its just unacceptable. Bioware, you have to realize that is not only about the money, for me its aite to spend $50, I enjoyed it after all, but your reputation is in the line, dont go backwards, keep getting better and stay focus on what the mayority of ppl like about DA. 

[Mad-Max90]

Yes tigerperson avatar thing that is what bioware excels at not this ugly hybrid of linear storybook rpg combo, like I said even mass effect 2 gave you choices to make so they did in a sense have more rpg then dragon age 2

[KingJason13]

My biggest fear is that people are making too many excuses for what Bioware did poorly with DA2.

-Recycled environments: "No problem... I play for the character interaction..."
-"Choices" having close to zero impact on gameworld: "Had to be cut to make room for a fully voiced main character, obviously..."
-Etc., etc., etc.... ad nauseum.

Are you stupid if you liked the game? No. Probably just misguided, or, far FAR too forgiving.

I'd bet that a lot of the people who liked DA2 weren't fans of Bioware prior to ME or DAO, though. They clearly haven't had their expectations raised to the insane BG2 levels mine have been raised to. Perhaps, I'm spoiled for it?

My major problem is: if the majority of people are willing to let recycled environments, lack of real influence, and poor storytelling slip through the "critical cracks", then we'll just get more of it next time around.

I say "bash away", and pray that Bioware actually listen this time... and DA3 will be all the better for it.

Modifié par KingJason13, 03 mai 2011 - 01:56 .

[Elhanan]

KingJason13 wrote...

My biggest fear is that people are making too many excuses for what Bioware did poorly with DA2.

-Recycled environments: "No problem... I play for the character interaction..."
-"Choices" having close to zero impact on gameworld: "Had to be cut to make room for a fully voiced main character, obviously..."
-Etc., etc., etc.... ad nauseum.

Are you stupid if you liked the game? No. Probably just misguided, or, far FAR too forgiving.

I'd bet that a lot of the people who liked DA2 weren't fans of Bioware prior to ME or DAO, though. They clearly haven't had their expectations raised to the insane BG2 levels mine have been raised to. Perhaps, I'm spoiled for it?

My major problem is: if the majority of people are willing to let recycled environments, lack of real influence, and poor storytelling slip through the "critical cracks", then we'll just get more of it next time around.

I say "bash away", and pray that Bioware actually listen this time... and DA3 will be all the better for it.

Been playing Bioware games and posting on their forums for 12+ yrs at a guess, so you might lose that bet. And while you may not have asked, I do not believe I have said that I liked DA2 more than DAO; just played this gane as a seperate story, and left my wish lists on the boards, as well as personal expectations.

But if one truly believes that coming into the forums and posting blatantly opinionated reviews, write with condescending attitudes, and/or berate others with a differing opinion will actually help and improve the game, then heightened fear or not; the next game may be a huge disappointment, too. I know I would not pay much attention; doubt if they would either.
 
So bash away; bash away all!

FWIW - I would like more variety in housing, but do not require custom basements or tunnels, will leave the Choice decisions to the team writing the game as I am used to both styles, and will continue to nap a lot to fight nausea. Thanks for the thought!

Modifié par Elhanan, 03 mai 2011 - 02:51 .

[Mad-Max90]

^changes don't get made unless one voices there opinions, that's held true since the dawn of man, was his tone condescending, only if you read it that way, his opinions are just that, as your statements are also, but when the overwhelming majority of users agree with him that's when it gets hard to write it off as just his opinion, when it seems like the opinion of alot of users.

[Elhanan]

Mad-Max90 wrote...

^changes don't get made unless one voices there opinions, that's held true since the dawn of man, was his tone condescending, only if you read it that way, his opinions are just that, as your statements are also, but when the overwhelming majority of users agree with him that's when it gets hard to write it off as just his opinion, when it seems like the opinion of alot of users.

Yep; it is the manner in which an opinion is delivered; not the differing opinion which offend me. Simply because one feels or presumes something to be factual does not equate to the truth.

I am all for voicing informed opinions; just tired of the whine coming with it. I prefer sparking grape juice. White, so as not to stain the carpet.

[Elhanan]

*You can say that again*

Modifié par Elhanan, 03 mai 2011 - 03:10 .

[Mad-Max90]

Even if one did not whine about it's flaws and merely pointed them out, another would write it off as whining, I've seen it happen many times in this forum. I'm not blaming you, mind you, just saying one cannot complain by using text without somebody reading it the wrong way.

I did not like the use of the same areas over and over again, I also find the lack of choice disturbing(star wars reference) but somebody out there will say I'm whining over a legit complaint, just as haters may or may not bash people who liked the game the opposite does occur more often than not as well

[Elhanan]

Mad-Max90 wrote...

Even if one did not whine about it's flaws and merely pointed them out, another would write it off as whining, I've seen it happen many times in this forum. I'm not blaming you, mind you, just saying one cannot complain by using text without somebody reading it the wrong way.

I did not like the use of the same areas over and over again, I also find the lack of choice disturbing(star wars reference) but somebody out there will say I'm whining over a legit complaint, just as haters may or may not bash people who liked the game the opposite does occur more often than not as well

Another might accuse a differing opinion of whining, but that is not a given fact. It might seem that way to those that post more frequently in the positive and negative threads, as they may likely be in the majority of thought; thus the vocal minority may be perceived as hostile.

It may not seem like it, but I really try not to take personal shots, and attempt to discuss posts reasonably. That said, I am not above responding in kind, as my patience has eroded since game release.

FWIW - I find this post far more pleasing than the ones containing more desriptive terms.

[heathxxx]

Whining about the game itself, whining about those who like the game, whining about those who hate the game, whining about whining...

...I simply reserve the right to vote with my wallet in future, based on this release. It was far from good enough and far from what I'd expect from BioWare.

That is all.

Modifié par heathxxx, 03 mai 2011 - 04:08 .

[Mad-Max90]

It is pretty nice to argue with you elthanan, when we do so civilly that is, I would have to say you are my go-to guy if I want a point-counterpoint type argument, where would I be without Gary Oak? I'm just saying, it's nice to see somebody that even though our opinions over the game are different, our points are still valid, and at times we can even agree (to an extent) on somethings.

[Elhanan]

Mad-Max90 wrote...

It is pretty nice to argue with you elthanan, when we do so civilly that is, I would have to say you are my go-to guy if I want a point-counterpoint type argument, where would I be without Gary Oak? I'm just saying, it's nice to see somebody that even though our opinions over the game are different, our points are still valid, and at times we can even agree (to an extent) on somethings.

Thank you! I shall attempt to be civil.

And if you really wanna see hostility, head to the NPC Forums and say Loghain is a stinker!

*still has bandages from Persephone*

[KingJason13]

I apologize if I sounded condescending, or pointed fingers, back there. It wasn't my intention to whine... although, it is almost impossible to express my level of worry, and dissatisfaction, without coming across that way.

That being said... I honestly wonder how much "streamlining" it will take before a genuine backlash occurs? Because the current business model being pushed by , I'm guessing, EA doesn't appear to be going to end anytime soon.

I get it: less content for the same price... create more dlc for future revenue... keep content size under a certain limit to fit on a single DVD (for consoles), thus cutting features that may have been included on PC previously... shorten production cycle... all to maximize content to return ratio... yada... yada... yada...

Problem is: this is inevitably a short term strategy... with an obvious downward spiral apparent... Make gobs of cash now... rather than building a longterm revenue stream. And, although it won't be immediately evident, it becomes a lose/lose/lose situation for all involved (EA/Bioware/fans).

Sure, we could vote with our wallets, and not purchase DA3... But, I'm selfish, and would rather try and correct the situation now, as a vocal consumer, so that I CAN buy DA3 went it comes out, and enjoy it.

Otherwise, when does this trend end? With the dismantling of Bioware?

'Cause the ultimate endpoint of "streamlining" is paying $60 for the privilege to imagine we're playing a game...

(that last bit was hyperbole...)

[Dragoonlordz]

The way I see it is when you cut someone they bleed, when you have sex (generally) you tend to be naked and when someone chops off your hand or toes it's not realistic to say "Oh poopie that hurts". I am not saying I think DA2 did any of this well in fact I hated the lego body parts and more blood spurting out than the physical body even contains, the romance sex scenes more inline with two people having fits or lack the simple knowledge how to unclip a bra in example of Hawke and Isabella on bed him waving hand over her back like he couldn't unclip her bra to save his life. The language in DA2 was fine though except when you pick harsh options and he says diplomatic tree hugging style comments. But my comment earlier was I see no reason to remove or dumb such aspects down in games, instead make it more realistic in all regards due to it being a 18 rated game the audience playing should be mature enough to handle such things.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 03 mai 2011 - 04:51 .

[erynnar]

Elhanan wrote...

Mad-Max90 wrote...

It is pretty nice to argue with you elthanan, when we do so civilly that is, I would have to say you are my go-to guy if I want a point-counterpoint type argument, where would I be without Gary Oak? I'm just saying, it's nice to see somebody that even though our opinions over the game are different, our points are still valid, and at times we can even agree (to an extent) on somethings.

Thank you! I shall attempt to be civil.

And if you really wanna see hostility, head to the NPC Forums and say Loghain is a stinker!

*still has bandages from Persephone*

Oh no, you went there? *hands El some salve* Wow, you brave or foolish, or both! ROFL! And too love El for the differing civil debate.

[erynnar]

KingJason13 wrote...

I apologize if I sounded condescending, or pointed fingers, back there. It wasn't my intention to whine... although, it is almost impossible to express my level of worry, and dissatisfaction, without coming across that way.

That being said... I honestly wonder how much "streamlining" it will take before a genuine backlash occurs? Because the current business model being pushed by , I'm guessing, EA doesn't appear to be going to end anytime soon.

I get it: less content for the same price... create more dlc for future revenue... keep content size under a certain limit to fit on a single DVD (for consoles), thus cutting features that may have been included on PC previously... shorten production cycle... all to maximize content to return ratio... yada... yada... yada...

Problem is: this is inevitably a short term strategy... with an obvious downward spiral apparent... Make gobs of cash now... rather than building a longterm revenue stream. And, although it won't be immediately evident, it becomes a lose/lose/lose situation for all involved (EA/Bioware/fans).

Sure, we could vote with our wallets, and not purchase DA3... But, I'm selfish, and would rather try and correct the situation now, as a vocal consumer, so that I CAN buy DA3 went it comes out, and enjoy it.

Otherwise, when does this trend end? With the dismantling of Bioware?

'Cause the ultimate endpoint of "streamlining" is paying $60 for the privilege to imagine we're playing a game...

(that last bit was hyperbole...)

Well, thanks for the apology but I didn't take it as condescending. *shrugs* But it is nice of you. And I agree with you. I don't take it as whining, just vocally trying to keep the DA train from derailing completely.

My husband is a web designer and he too knows marketing. He said the same thing about a short term cash grab, but killing the long term revenue stream.  Bad, bad idea.