133 réponses à ce sujet

[Kaedan94]

I'm going to have to disagree that the ammo system is bad or in need of any kind of major overhaul.

Having an unobtrusive system similar to what you stated or even ME1 is just not a good choice IMO.  You can go wild with your shots and it really makes content trivial once you get the skills that reduce your heat generation.  And any other kind of unobtrusive method is going to make it similar (since you're comparing true shooters with a shooter-like game).

In my experience on Insanity in ME2, ammo is pretty liberal.  From what I can tell, the percentage chance of enemies dropping ammo is based on how much you've used.  And missions that require a lot of ammo usually have it lying around all over the place, have a few Heavy Ammo crates (which fill your ammo), or ammo drops from nearly every mob (including mobs that don't use guns...).

I have played through as an Adept, Vanguard, and Sentinel, and I've never really had a problem.  I haven't played as Soldier, but I would imagine that since you'd use more ammo, more ammo would drop from enemies. 

All in all, I'm not saying that Ammo is flowing freely in the game, but there's enough.  There are some points where you have to choose the right weapon and when to use it, and be conscious of your usage.  And that's a good thing, IMO.  I normally run with the Vindicator and Phalanx as a backup.  There have been times where I run dangerously close to empty, and those times really made me sweat...which makes it fun.

[Someone With Mass]

How about just sucking it up and play?

Honestly, I find the idea of having unlimited ammo retarded, simply because it negates the challenge.

And really. It's not that hard to conserve ammo and go check for one eventual heatsink once in a while. Don't make such a big fuzz about something that insignificant. It makes you look like a crybaby.

[Ahglock]

Someone With Mass wrote...

How about just sucking it up and play?

Honestly, I find the idea of having unlimited ammo retarded, simply because it negates the challenge.

And really. It's not that hard to conserve ammo and go check for one eventual heatsink once in a while. Don't make such a big fuzz about something that insignificant. It makes you look like a crybaby.

Thanks for your insightful commentary.  Ammo does not pose a challenge unless it is scarce, which it isn't ant wont be.  So why even have it, it does not effect game play in the slightest.  

[Nohvarr]

It does affect gameplay. There mere fact that you have to be aware of how much ammo you expend alters how people play. You don't just spray and pray you hit something anymore, knowing that you have unlimited ammo. Now people consider their shots. It's why the Mattock is so powerful, you only get 16 shoits before you have to reload so you make those shots count. And since each round is so powerful, it turns out to be very cost effective weapon to pick.

Modifié par Nohvarr, 30 avril 2011 - 05:54 .

[Ahglock]

Nohvarr wrote...

It does affect gameplay. There mere fact that you have to be aware of how much ammo you expend alters how people play. You don't just spray and pray you hit something anymore, knowing that you have unlimited ammo. Now people consider their shots. It's why the Mattock is so powerful, you only get 16 shoits before you have to reload so you make those shots count. And since each round is so powerful, it turns out to be very cost effective weapon to pick.

But I don't consider my shots any more than I did with heat.  Overheating was just as much of a threat or probably  a bigger threat than ammo given the relative durabilities of enemies.  I aim and shoot, just like I did in ME1.  About the only real difference is the ammount of time I can be out of cvoer is drasticaly less in ME2 unless I am dodging the various OSOK enemies in ME1.  And that isn't due to ammo, that is due to my paper shields.  

[mcsupersport]

I am replaying ME1 right now, running a Infiltrator with Specter X gear spec'd with Scram Rail X and Frictionless Materials X right now. On my sniper rifle I can shoot forever without overheating, and with the pistol specialization engaged I can do the same with pistols. So a fight inside goes like this, pop immunity, pop pistol power, hold trigger and only release when powers need to be reset, continue until fight is over.

I like that I can't use one weapon constantly in every situation and that I have to actually have to aim to hit my targets. The system in ME1 allowed a spray and pray, and except for the Soldier's LMG, ME2 doesn't allow or encourage that kind of play. If you are running out of ammo, you are either packing a bunch of high damage, low ammo weapons, or you can't shoot worth a darn. Ammo is plentiful, and yeah, you do have to hunt a bit after fights, but most of the time it is right there waiting on you to waltz over and pick it up. The ammo system also encourages you to use your teammates, and to use powers to augment your guns, so it does effect the game, but to me in a good way. I would like to see maybe reduced rate of fire once clips are empty(ie 1/2 speed) but even then it is not really required.

[JaegerBane]

JMTolan wrote...
Oh, and Bioware? Either give Snipers more shots per clip, or let them carry more clips. No reasonable sniper would only have ten to twelve shots when going into even a mid-sized firefight.

-Tolan

While I personally think the thermal clip system made sense with high RoF weapons like the Revenant and the Tempest, the whole concept fell apart with Sniper Rifles. The whole point behind the Thermal Clips were supposed to be a method for speeding up overall rates of fire by eliminating the need to wait for the gun to cool down, but on things like the Mantis, it takes just as long, if not longer, to eject the thermal clip and re-aim. Thus the only net difference is that they've added a limit to the number of shots that can be fired.

As you say, no reasonable person would only carry 10-12 'rounds', as it calls into question the point behind bothering with the weapon in the first place.

'Course, this is precisely why I prefer the Viper

[JoeClose]

I don't see how a player using the soldier class could even come close to running out of ammo. If you're rotating through all your guns and using each one effectively there's no reason you should be running out of ammo or coming close to it.

Even other classes with less weaponry shouldn't have much of an issue, you rotate through your weapons based on situation or protection and use your powers in tandem with each other. This ammo discussion is a non-issue and honestly it's not gonna go anywhere.

Ammo is here to stay because of the benefits it has on the gameplay, namely ammo conservation and discouraging camping.

[Nohvarr]

So you admit that ME 2's system alters the amount of time you can spend out of cover. That's an alteration to the gameplay.

[Ahglock]

Nohvarr wrote...

So you admit that ME 2's system alters the amount of time you can spend out of cover. That's an alteration to the gameplay.

But its not the ammo that did that.  It was the removal of immunity and huge shields and barriers.  There are dozens of changes to the game play, not all of them are good or had much of an effect or an effect even if the overall level of game play imrpoved dramatically.  Do I spend more time aiming so I don't waste ammo in ME2, nope.

 I can see for the poeple who went the impossible to overheat route with their guns spending less time aiming, but even then the one time I did that I didn;t spray and pray.  I aimed because I wanted to kill things as quick as possible while they were shooting at me.  But one gun with a specific mod set up is not a system.  95% of ME1 had a heat system that limited you just as much as ammo does in ME2.  

The game play was not changed at all by the ammo system.  The shields and durability changed things, the accuracy of enemies on insanity changed things, the different cover system changed things, the removal of weapon skills changed things.  Ammo not so much.  If they had cut ammo reserves in half then maybe we'd be having scarcity issues that affected game play, but as is not really.  

[Nohvarr]

And yet I already explained how ammo changed the game for me, and now you're backpeddeling on a previous statement. If the ammo didn't affect your time in cover, why did you mention it in this discussion?

[Ahglock]

Nohvarr wrote...

And yet I already explained how ammo changed the game for me, and now you're backpeddeling on a previous statement. If the ammo didn't affect your time in cover, why did you mention it in this discussion?

I don't think it is affecting your game play, you just think it is.  It is a clever illusion.    On a more serious note, I am obviously saying how I think ammo affected me and by extension how I think it also affected most people since I consider myself fairly average at shooting games.  

And no I am not backpeddaling.  My sentence right after mentioning cover explained that this had nothing to do with ammo , but everything to do with papaer shields.  I aim just as hard in both and for the same reason, I can only shoot so long until something happens.  I have to relaod, I overheat, my shields explode etc.  In ME2 the big limiter is my shields exploding and me dieing, not my ammo.  The occasional reload slows things down a bit if you aren't paying attention, but I can say the same about paying attention to heat and overheating.  Though that lasted a couple seconds longer.  But really it doesn't change my game play to have ammo since it just isn't scarce in the slightest.  

[Nohvarr]

Ahglock wrote...

Nohvarr wrote...

And yet I already explained how ammo changed the game for me, and now you're backpeddeling on a previous statement. If the ammo didn't affect your time in cover, why did you mention it in this discussion?

I don't think it is affecting your game play, you just think it is.  It is a clever illusion.    

Wrong, because I never gave any consideration to which guns I used in ME 1 beyond raw power. In this game I pick weapons based on what I feel is best for my class and not which one is the most 'powerful' .

[mcsupersport]

Ahglock, what class are you using??

To me it encourages more powers and less just shoot until it dies. To me it does change how I will play, and there are several setups that give unlimited shooting in ME1, some of course are better than others. I am aiming in ME1 to kill but I don't worry if I miss 25% of my shots while moving and shooting at enemies, vs in ME2 I almost always care a great deal about missed shots, except for the Rev Soldier, who just has a bullet hose for a gun.

Please Imagine if the Widow had unlimited shots, and how it would then be used by both the Infiltrator and Soldier. Having a limited quantity of ammo makes the current ability of the Widow to OSOK ok, because you can't just sit there and wipe the entire enemy contingent from one location.

[Murmillos]

ME1 insanity isn't that difficult as many are trying to make it out to be.

I never had a group of enemies last for too long - in ME1, because I used the tactics and skills provided to me by my group. Maybe if you went as a Solider/Ashly/Wrex setup you wouldn't have a whole lot of abilities on your end to work with, but thats the fault of the party make up, not the difficulty level.
Thats like complaining you are always losing in rock-paper-scissors to scissors because you are always playing as paper waiting for rock.

I think the most difficult fight I had was one of the bases in BDTS in which there was about 10 re-spawning rocket drones that would fly in the upper back corner. But that most just mostly a waiting game and rocket dodging.

[Ahglock]

mcsupersport wrote...

Ahglock, what class are you using??

To me it encourages more powers and less just shoot until it dies. To me it does change how I will play, and there are several setups that give unlimited shooting in ME1, some of course are better than others. I am aiming in ME1 to kill but I don't worry if I miss 25% of my shots while moving and shooting at enemies, vs in ME2 I almost always care a great deal about missed shots, except for the Rev Soldier, who just has a bullet hose for a gun.

Please Imagine if the Widow had unlimited shots, and how it would then be used by both the Infiltrator and Soldier. Having a limited quantity of ammo makes the current ability of the Widow to OSOK ok, because you can't just sit there and wipe the entire enemy contingent from one location.

My first class is always adept, but I have played through with every class now.  Thing is I just never really ran out of ammo with the widow on my infiltrator.  I don't know maybe because I use cloak to flank and that stops respawns since I have advanced or something, but I never had an issue with it.  But the game for what half the classes for most players is camping at one spot and killing all the enmies and still having tons of ammo to do it.  

Vanguard is about charging, and I have never run out of ammo with my shotguns.  The sentinel is a farking tank and I never ran out of ammo with my guns with him if played as an assaulting gun user, if you focus on your powers wel you wont be using guns as much.  My soldier is a reve soldier and that thing never runs low.  My engineer and adpet initially camped and never ran low, now I close with a shotgun and still never run low.  My infiltrator camps in one spot, just a advnaced flanking position but he rarely moved once there and he never had ammo issues.

Unless you are actually running out of ammo, or comming close ammo really isn't an issue.  About the only weapon that might do that is the widow, and then only if you camp in a place where you will deal with a lot of respawns and you stick to it as an exclsuive weapon, and don't use squad powers.  That seems similar to the double heat sink annomaly in ME1, not really a part of the core system but an edge case.  

And heck my first play through on my adept, I used more ammo than almost every run except my soldier run because I never used my squad powers and I had to shoot the shields off.  And I still never ran low in any fight.  And since ammo never even came close to running out it just does not affect game play for me. I would say the only thing the really changed my shooting is the removal of gun skills because in ME1 without putting points into your guns you could not hit ****. 

[Ahglock]

Murmillos wrote...

ME1 insanity isn't that difficult as many are trying to make it out to be.

I never had a group of enemies last for too long - in ME1, because I used the tactics and skills provided to me by my group. Maybe if you went as a Solider/Ashly/Wrex setup you wouldn't have a whole lot of abilities on your end to work with, but thats the fault of the party make up, not the difficulty level.
Thats like complaining you are always losing in rock-paper-scissors to scissors because you are always playing as paper waiting for rock.

I think the most difficult fight I had was one of the bases in BDTS in which there was about 10 re-spawning rocket drones that would fly in the upper back corner. But that most just mostly a waiting game and rocket dodging.

My only issue with BDTS was the absurd number fo engineer types who shut down all guns and abiliites. God that was annoying.  The occasional frozen gun and power is one thing, but it was chained there.  

[Bostur]

ME2 usually have enough ammo so that I never really run out. But sometimes I may have to improvise a bit due to being low on ammo for a particular weapon. I think thats a good reason for the system, it shakes things up a bit.

I also have different fighting modes. I can spray a ton of shots for suppression, or I can aim carefully to make them count. Both modes have their uses and I think ammo conservation is an important factor here.

Reloading is a mechanic that fits well into the cover mechanics. It encourages having a good 'rhytm' in combat.


I think the ammo and reloading mechanics are quite important for the flow in ME2 combat, which I think is very good.

[TUHD]

Yeah, Rocket Drones can be a nasty bunch. <_< Swipe them as quickly as you can, otherwise they kill you, FAST.

@ Topic: How the hell you manage to run out of ammo is beyond me. Sure, you'll sometimes need to pick up ammo to be on the safe side. But unless you're a really lousy shot, running out of ammo in ME2 is barely possible. Even if you've got only 2 weapons (excluding the heavy, but using the heavy is often a waste since it doesn't get refilled at the start of a mission), you've got plenty of ammo - as long as you have got 2 squaddies with you and actively using your powers. This isn't CoD, GoW and such where you can run&gun - it involves some measure of brain capacity.

And comparing to ME1 is a bit of a fail, since that is a system which on higher levels just can't be believed anymore. In ME1, with full Spectre gear, full Spectre powers and SMG-skills maxed, I could fire the SMG for several MINUTES (or even longer) before the weapon started to overheat. Notice: on the lowest levels the SMG lasts several SECONDS. Compare that.

Personally I'd rather have a system which forces you a bit to think tactical, instead of a system which encourages blind spray&pray...

Ahglock wrote...

Murmillos wrote...

ME1 insanity isn't that difficult as many are trying to make it out to be.

I
never had a group of enemies last for too long - in ME1, because I used
the tactics and skills provided to me by my group. Maybe if you went as
a Solider/Ashly/Wrex setup you wouldn't have a whole lot of abilities
on your end to work with, but thats the fault of the party make up, not
the difficulty level.
Thats like complaining you are always losing
in rock-paper-scissors to scissors because you are always playing as
paper waiting for rock.

I think the most difficult fight I had
was one of the bases in BDTS in which there was about 10 re-spawning
rocket drones that would fly in the upper back corner. But that most
just mostly a waiting game and rocket dodging.

My only
issue with BDTS was the absurd number fo engineer types who shut down
all guns and abiliites. God that was annoying.  The occasional frozen
gun and power is one thing, but it was chained there.  

Tip: when walking inside a building in ME1 where you know a group of engies reside, use a lousy weapon as your first choice. Let them sabotage that one and then switch to your primary weapon. They then wasted their talent, giving you the necessary time to focus fire and take them down.

Modifié par TUHD, 30 avril 2011 - 07:20 .

[Ahglock]

TUHD wrote...

Tip: when walking inside a building in ME1 where you know a group of engies reside, use a lousy weapon as your first choice. Let them sabotage that one and then switch to your primary weapon. They then wasted their talent, giving you the necessary time to focus fire and take them down.

Damn I feel dumb,  I have put about 200 hours into the game and I never thought about doing that in BDTS.  It is farking obvious now that you say it.  

[Adhin]

Personally I'd like to see a single heatsync counter all weapons share. It's supposed to be completely universal, and also the idea of a single heatsync being counted as 'extra ammo shots' like a normal shooter always felt...weird to me. Granted most my issues with that will be changed with the mods but I still think it would be nice if it was just 'you can reload 10 more times' kinda deal. Spread that out amongst the weapons your carrying.

Issue with that, though, would be if your running out of ammo entirely your...really out of ammo for everything right away. So even if its split up I'd still like to show total number of reloads, instead of it functioning exactly the same as a basic shooter. It would, at the very least, add a choice between making sure your gun is full before moving into a hostile room, or reloading mid-mag due to charging enemy and needing it full for that. Doing so you'd lose out on some 'shots' unlike the current system.

I can't see that causing to much ammo shortage issues even with how much drops currently in ME2. But I get people who press the reload button constantly with out thinking about it would run into some...problems heh.

[CroGamer002]

I'm just waiting for Phaedon to show up.
I'm already tired from some other argument I had.

[TUHD]

Eh - doesn't sound logical. I wouldn't expect Shephard to see him/her switching the heat sink from weapon to weapon - I must admit the ME2 system is a bit weird too - and it would have people run out of ammo really quickly.

[theSteeeeels]

i like the hybrid idea or both systems. except instead of "reloading", its just an animation of "venting/cooling" e.g.

gun heats up to a certain point, heat doesnt go down, and you can reload whenever you want

also, if you want to spray, you will be able to shoot for lets say, 1 or 2 extra seconds when it says "overheating", until the gun starts to get really hot, this will then punish you by forcing you to reload, except this animation will take 2-3 seconds longer than the normal reload animation.

[DTKT]

Since finishing ME2, I always felt that the ammo system was awkward. It felt a bit strange when you had Husk dropping ammo.

I mix of the "Overheat" system and the Heatsinks from ME2 do seem like a better choice. Your weapon would overheat but you can choose to insert a HS so you can cool it down faster. The HS would be limited.