133 réponses à ce sujet

[Devos]

I feel like perhaps I haven't made my point clearly enough so I'll try to state it more concisely.

With shooters being such a popular genre at the moment they have become very polished. Any element of a particular shooter which is weak is especially obvious because it can be compared to other games. Mass Effect 2's ammo system is weak. As compared with some of the best shooters of the last few years the risk of running out of ammo is out of line with how much agency the player has with regards to the system. These good shooters either have a much lower risk or use the ammo pressure as a factor in tactical and strategic choices.

Ammo doesn't really inform any choice. It might demand you shoot better but that isn't really a choice.  Effectiveness against defence types, utility and ability synergy (for example charge + shotty) decide which guns you use. All the ammo system does is punish you if you suffer bad luck or don't spend time collecting thermal clips after every fight.

While the upshot of Mass Effect 2's ammo system isn't that you often run completely out of ammo it does generate busy work as you search for clips between every encounter.

Also to be clear I'm not saying ME1's system is better but I'm saying that it does have some advantages. It did add depth and it didn't add empty busy work in the same way gathering thermal clips does.

As much as I love the game, purely as shooter Mass Effect was just awful. The lack of locational damage, bad level design, immunity were for me all worse offenders than its ammo solution. ME2 is a much better shooter, though for me it's shooting mechanics aren't on par with the best and it's ammo system is the weakest component. But from an RPG perspective I have to admit I did kind of like breaking the cool down system. At first overheat is a real problem but by the end of the game it's something you have gained mastery of. The closest to that in ME2 that I've experienced is the shotgun capacity upgrades but it's more that I felt hobbled without them (especially as a Vanguard) than having gained mastery with them.

Even so it's not a high/low dichotomy. There is middle ground between spraying an unlimited number of bullets and ridiculously low ammo capacity. It's kind of odd that ME1 and ME2 occupy extremes of the spectrum. While actually running out was a threat in practice ME2 rarely delivered on it's more the flow breaking busy work of collecting ammo between fights that I object to.

Modifié par Devos, 30 avril 2011 - 08:45 .

[theSteeeeels]

youre making good points devos but it'd be good actually hear any ideas of improvement you may have

[lolwut666]

I used to care about this ammo stuff, but now I've come to the conclusion that I prefer limited ammo rather than unlimited ammo with cooldown, lore be damned.

On the first ME, I actually never used any weapon besides my shotgun. Ever.

On the second game, I'm forced to be smarter with my ammo expenditure, which adds to the challenge. Plus I'm just used to this system from other shooters and I see no reason to change.

It all makes sense if you'd just separate gameplay mechanics from lore mechanics, which is how it should be, IMO.

[Clonedzero]

people who want ME1's heat system back grossly exaggerate how rare ammo was in ME2. if you had to look for ammo after every fight, you're doing something VERY wrong.

[Black Raptor]

They should have it so your weapon still has an overheat bar which decreases over time, but if you exceed the limit you have to swap in a new thermal clip.

Thus the choice is yours. Do you want long bursts with plenty of ammo, or hard hitting shots with limited rounds?

[Devos]

theSteeeeels wrote...

youre making good points devos but it'd be good actually hear any ideas of improvement you may have

I'm reluctant on that point because it's easy to play arm-chair game designer and having played amateur game designer I know this stuff is no where near as easy as it looks. IIRC there is a hybrid ammo system that can be activated in the games .ini's but it wasn't used because apparently it didn't play as well. Intuitively I would prefer a hybrid system but I have to take on faith it wasn't as good. On the other hand saying what didn't work and pointing out games which do something better is safer than asserting my arm-chair game designed mechanic is better.

That disclaimer out the way...

Simplest fix would be higher ammo capacities, much higher ammo capacities on the particular low weapons (read Mantis). Either every enemy drops clips and a lot more of those stations which refilled your ammo and let you swap your weapons or your supply of thermal clips just cool when out of combat. ME2's ammo system wasn't horribly broken it just got in the way too much. There were already enough factors to make you choose between weapons and want to be accurate.

What I would have like most of all though would have been ME1's system but fixed. That I really have no idea how it could have worked well. At a push I would say ME2's system was bad but objectively better than ME1. ME1's system was however bad in an interesting way.

[Adhin]

Yeah I can see a hybrid system turning out a bit weird or feeling redundant. Ultimately I like the heat sync change my self, I felt the lack of that reload rhythm you get with other shoots is important, not sure why though but it just feels better to me then just unlimitedly dumping ammo out like the late game AR in ME1. Or having to wait seconds between each shot cause you have to let the heat go down just to avoid an overload.

As per the comment of switching syncs out of 1 gun into another thats not what I was saying. The main point I was trying to make regardless of how its all counted up is seeing all of your extra shots (per sync) listed out as if it was individual bullets in another modern shooter is a tad awkward. And the fact you can, somehow, eject a half-spent heatsync and put in a full one while still having partial syncs sitting around seems awkward to me.

I feel its a bit awkward in modern shooters but I can at least pretend the guys re-filling a mag or something when I'm just walking around. Actually something I'd like to see changed in more tactical shooters, they had that in Rainbow 6 along time ago but as of vegas went more...actiony and it lost a lot of that tactical flavor.

Anyways to my point of the universal 'for all weapon' syncs idea. A single number that all weapons, on 'reload' a new sync would pull from. One idea I was thinking of would involve making your max sync total in this universal thing being based off how many weapon slots you have. Ultimately, all this system would do is allow you, personally, to decide how you split up your syncs. If you think about it there weapons are a bit... awkwardly balanced in 'extra ammo'. Which also makes no sense with there lore and doesn't help to much on the gameplay part other then alienate some guns. Shotguns, for the most part, all match up pretty well due to how they're used.

Anyways if you where to balance each gun around how much ammo is in it at full vs how much dmg it does per shot (so they all kinda equal the same overall per sync) then you could easily just have them all have 5 extra syncs. Avenger, for instance has 10 extra. Its a lot, and if the dmg was doubled and you only had 5 extra syncs it would, ultimately, be a far more useful gun and actually be comparible with the others.

Now take that idea of 5 extra syncs per weapon slot, and add it all up into a universal pile, soldier with 4 slots (just an example) would have 20. Vanguard/Infiltrator with there 3 would have 15, and the rest at 10. You'd get to split that up as you see fit. So you love just blasting away with an Assault rifle? awesome you got a ton of ammo for it. Probably wont notice much a difference between that and ME2 other then some the lower ones where you run out easily you wouldn't anymore.

It would also allow for the same kind of... sniping a lot with the single-shot big ones and when you run low people would often switch to there SMG or AR till they picked up more syncs. Same thing would work with that as the AR would ultimately run through syncs slower then the Sniper Rifle would.

Personally I just like the idea of having a universal Sync counter so I can use what I want, when I want and decide exactly how im splitting up my syncs instead of having it pre-defined for me. And also why, if all syncs work in all guns the same, why does the Pred-Pistol have 5 reloads but the Other one only has 3? It makes no freakin' sense. And the overall dmg for everyshot combined in that doesn't even match up the HP beats it out pretty easily in overall damage output just not 'per shot'.

Anyways I've said about all I got to say on that, I feel its the best approach obviously, ones a flavor thing that fits the lore better. And the others just a usability feature I'd feel more comfortable with in ME.

[Murmillos]

Clonedzero wrote...

people who want ME1's heat system back grossly exaggerate how rare ammo was in ME2. if you had to look for ammo after every fight, you're doing something VERY wrong.

No, it was never rare and only time most people run out if they were very active with a single weapon and didn't go a loot hunt for ammo clips.

But thats the issue, why should we go on a loot hunt for ammo clips. If half of the game is slugging rounds down hamsters designed corridors with oddly strategically placed chest high walls, then the other half the game is search around making sure you have enough ammo for the next encounter. And depending on the higher difficulty level, why is it that even other ammo-clip enemies often don't have ammo clips themselves when killed. Did they come at you with the only ammo-clip on their possession already loaded into the weapon?

They try to make ammo limited so you take your shots more carefully (and they spouted such logic to game sites the same), but then turn around and make ammo overly abundant as long as you are willing to search every nook and cranny like you are vagrant looking to loot the place of valuables?
The whole system just doesn't make sense. Or lets not forget about the spots where they want you to camp and fight off waves of enemies until the next cut scene and then we have to deal with re-spawning ammo spots.

And lets not get into my issue with heat sinks and the M-96 Mattock Heavy Rifle. When I pick up 1 heat sink, it nets me 24 rounds total, but a single heat sink "round if fire" is only 16. So how does picking up one standard "heatsink" somehow change into 1.5 of a heat sink for a weapon. Its a ****ing farce - thats what it is.

I would understand the heat sink system of being rare and something you wanted to keep your hands on for the "just in case" fights if the weapon had a slow-auto cool system (say.. 20% of max every second) - so during emergency/overwhelming fights you could instantly cool down and finish bring down your enemy.

The ME1 system needed two fixes; a set consistent cool down period (16%/20%/25%-of-max/sec | depending on upgrades) {{{{NEVER ALLOWING FOR A NEVER OVERHEATING CONDITION}}}} - and if your weapon did over heat, you were not out of battle for the entire 5-6 seconds your weapon was cooling down, only to 50%, which would be 3 to 2 seconds with the above cool down rates.

Modifié par Murmillos, 30 avril 2011 - 09:54 .

[Adhin]

Yeah the picking up partial heat sync bugged me too. Most every gun you get 'less' then the max. Like that pistol I was talking about, 6 shots before sync-eject. But when you pick up a sync off an enemy you only get 3 extra shots. Your basically picking up partial-heat syncs all over the place and magically fusing them together.

As for how to fix ME1 system with out heatsyncs? I think kinda what your saying Murmillos but I'd ultimately shorten the overall cooldown period from total overheat to about 3 seconds flat. Majority of reload animations in most supers (that aren't extremely long) are around 1 second. Basically at 90% to 0% it should be 1.5 seconds, and if you overheat it should just toss another second onto that total.

Another change to that overall structure would be the idea of a wait to cooldown. That being, instead of it CONSTANTLY dumping heat causing a juggle-effect with each shot, every time you shoot there's a .5 second 'wait' before it cooldown. That way Burst-firing wouldn't create a perfect, endless stream of damage compared to full-auto. You'd still burn the heating system out.

If you go off that, getting to 90% and 'waiting for it' it would take 2 seconds straight to get back to 0. Also with what you said about an overheating, once its at 50% it should be safe to fire again instead of waiting to 0.

But again I like the reload mechanism in general, it causes a more general forced rhythm I just enjoy for reasons im generally unsure of. It's something I always felt lacking back in old shooters like Doom and didn't realize how much I felt it was lacking till I played Marathon around 1996 which actually had full magazine based system (not 'extra ammo'). Reloading early, meant emptying the mag since there wasn't a reload button, and even if there was you'd lose that ammo anyways.

It worked very well overall, created a bit more resource management but didn't ever really make you feel cramped for ammo at the same time. Partly why I think a universal setup of total reloads over ammo counter would work really well in ME3.

[Kusy]

From what I understand ME3 doesn incorporate weapon tradeoff...

I say both "ammo options" should be merged - you can wait for your gun to cool down or you can press R and pop the sink. Additionaly, each time your gun overheats it looses some durability. This way it's actualy making sense lorewise, solves the problem of sparse ammo (if you run out of ammo you start watching your heat'o'meter) and it adds more strategy to the combat situations where you have to consider if it's wise to pop all your sinks just because your fingers itch or maybee you should save that last one in case there's a charging Crogan around the corner. And if you go full retard and just shoot even when you can feel your hands melting into your gun, it soon becomes unusable or close to untill you fix it baco on the Normandy (or at some "crafting table" placed somewhere around the level).

[lolwut666]

Weapon overheat will kill the Claymore.

No, thanks.

Modifié par lolwut666, 30 avril 2011 - 11:12 .

[Murmillos]

lolwut666 wrote...

Weapon overheat will kill the Claymore.

No, thanks.

Just as your name implies.. lol wut?

[Bluko]

Devos wrote...

Ammo doesn't really inform any choice. It might demand you shoot better but that isn't really a choice.  Effectiveness against defence types, utility and ability synergy (for example charge + shotty) decide which guns you use. All the ammo system does is punish you if you suffer bad luck or don't spend time collecting thermal clips after every fight.

While the upshot of Mass Effect 2's ammo system isn't that you often run completely out of ammo it does generate busy work as you search for clips between every encounter.

Bingo.

I don't really enjoy the aspect of searching for ammo in shooters. If anything it has to the biggest annoyance about them. Realistically you'd just pack a ton of ammo to begin. And in the unlikely situation you do run out, you pick up an enemy weapon. That's about it. If you run out of ammunition for your weapon you should be ****ed. The idea you can resupply from fallen enemies is more or less a video game troupe.

(Yes I know Thermal Clips are "universal" but that makes very little sense to begin with. Also they aren't truly universal in game since technically you should have 1 ammo reserve.)

To me it would have been preferable to simply "vent" your weapons. It wouldn't come off as so much of retcon and you'd still have the aspects reloading and making your shots count. Only difference is you don't have to search for clips. Also it seems impractical to switch weapons in ME2, since it's always much faster to simply reload. So what again is the purpose of switching weapons? It seems to me your best off just sticking with SMGs and ARs for the entire game.

I'm of the opinion you should use the weapon that's right for the situation. I dunno it just seems silly to abandon a good sniping position simply because the Mantis and Widow have such limited reserves. Shotguns just kind of suck in general unless you're are firing point blank. They don't have much range and you can't afford to fire several shots at range, even with the ammo reserve upgrade. This makes them all but useless unless you're playing as a Vanguard.

And there's even less reason to use Pistols in ME2. About the only thing I've used Pistols for is blowing up explosive elements in levels as that's about the only thing they are good for being semi-accurate.

Devos wrote...

Also to be clear I'm not saying ME1's system is better but I'm saying that it does have some advantages. It did add depth and it didn't add empty busy work in the same way gathering thermal clips does.

As much as I love the game, purely as shooter Mass Effect was just awful. The lack of locational damage, bad level design, immunity were for me all worse offenders than its ammo solution. 

This is certainly true. Mass Effect gun battles have a bad tendency to drag on, especially on higher difficulties.

The two best suggestions I can offer:

1) Have guns vent: This still leaves in place the mechanics of reloading and having limited shots, but negates the need to pick up ammo. Really I think gameplay wise this would have made the game more fun. It also fits better with the lore that was established, although ME2 has already done it's damage.

I do realize this idea is somewhat unpopular since the idea of unlimited ammo again would apparently make the game less exciting. (Although I should stress unless you fire blankly at open spaces you won't ever truly run out of ammo. You only temporarily run out of ammo.)

2) Have all weapons use the same ammo reserve: You still have thermal clips and limited "ammunition", but you are free to use the weapon(s) of your choice as little or as much as you want so long as you have ammunition. Also this would better fit the lore as Thermal Clips are suppose to be universal. That should mean the same clip you'd put into your Assault Rifle you could also put into a Sniper Rifle. I feel this system would probably be the best as you can niether recklessly spend ammo, but nor are your forced to use weapons you don't want to.

Only problem I see with this system is that it may be a little tricky to balance the weapon's clip consumptions. Also it means they'd have to abandon the "individual bullet" count since there's no way you can preserve each shot within a freaking thermal clip. Although this would be a bonus to me since too many games encourage that you reload more often then you should. Personally this would add even more tension since then not only must you hit your targets, but you can't reload all the time and keep all the ammunition you have.

I think it would also make sense to add this given that ME3 will no longer regulate weapons. In fact they may almost need to do this to ensure the weapons are actually balanced in ME3.

Modifié par Bluko, 30 avril 2011 - 11:38 .

[lolwut666]

Murmillos wrote...

lolwut666 wrote...

Weapon overheat will kill the Claymore.

No, thanks.

Just as your name implies.. lol wut?

I don't know about you, but I can do the Claymore trick really fast.

Suddenly having to stop because it overheated would be lame.

[88mphSlayer]

the simplest explanation is that an ammo system will always be biased towards guns with more DPS

[Kandid001]

Epic777 wrote...

There so many threads on this subject.

With good reason.

[Mr. MannlyMan]

lolwut666 wrote...

Murmillos wrote...

lolwut666 wrote...

Weapon overheat will kill the Claymore.

No, thanks.

Just as your name implies.. lol wut?

I don't know about you, but I can do the Claymore trick really fast.

Suddenly having to stop because it overheated would be lame.

Using a example of an exploit to justify the effectiveness of a system is lame.

[TomY90]

no offence the huge issue with ME1's ammo system was that weapon customisation enabled you to make it that you could go throughout a whole mission just holding fire down without pausing because of it losing heat fast enough that you do not gain any. (i have done this many times).

I do feel on balance the ME2 system is better because it forces you to be careful with your ammo and where possible collect ammo which that is part of strategy games (thinking about how you fight not point and shoot and pause for a second to let the heat cool)

[lolwut666]

Mr. MannlyMan wrote...

[Using a example of an exploit to justify the effectiveness of a system is lame.

It's a feature, not an exploit, ******. Look it up.

I think it was Christina Norman who pushed for its inclusion.

Modifié par lolwut666, 30 avril 2011 - 11:55 .

[Bluko]

lolwut666 wrote...

Murmillos wrote...

lolwut666 wrote...

Weapon overheat will kill the Claymore.

No, thanks.

Just as your name implies.. lol wut?

I don't know about you, but I can do the Claymore trick really fast.

Suddenly having to stop because it overheated would be lame.

Umm yeah "ammo tricks" just means the game is broken. Seriously they aren't "special moves" it's just you abusing the game's code to force a reload faster. I believe the Claymore trick works by melee'ing am I right? I just find that sort of crap really stupid. If you can't deal with the normal reload speed, then you deserve to get the "Critical Mission Failure" screen.

This is exactly why I hate CoD, because you can physically see your hand remove the clip but if you mash the button fast enough you can magically resume fire with the clip in place. Sometimes I like to believe BF2 was closer to doing things right, although I saw too much bunny hopping/dolphin diving to know that was the case.
I really hope the rolling in ME3 isn't going to be like Gears of War.... Other may as well call ME3

ME3: Mass Relay of Time
Shepard's great rolling adventure across the plains of Tuchanka!

[DTKT]

Mr.Kusy wrote...

From what I understand ME3 doesn incorporate weapon tradeoff...

I say both "ammo options" should be merged - you can wait for your gun to cool down or you can press R and pop the sink. Additionaly, each time your gun overheats it looses some durability. This way it's actualy making sense lorewise, solves the problem of sparse ammo (if you run out of ammo you start watching your heat'o'meter) and it adds more strategy to the combat situations where you have to consider if it's wise to pop all your sinks just because your fingers itch or maybee you should save that last one in case there's a charging Crogan around the corner. And if you go full retard and just shoot even when you can feel your hands melting into your gun, it soon becomes unusable or close to untill you fix it baco on the Normandy (or at some "crafting table" placed somewhere around the level).

That sounds even more contrived.

Crafting tables? Scattered around a level. I would still prefer ammo clips over that.

If your game overheat, just apply some "malus". Less accurate, less ROF or less damage. No need to add a repair gimmick into this.

[lolwut666]

@Bluko

You sound like a big whiner who can't do those things well and gotta hate on those who can.

Also, the reload trick is a feature, not a glitch. It was confirmed by the devs.

Excuse them for rewarding skilled players.

[Epic777]

Kandid001 wrote...

Epic777 wrote...

There so many threads on this subject.

With good reason.

Good reason? At this stage we are simply beating a dead horse; a corpse at this point.

Modifié par Epic777, 01 mai 2011 - 01:01 .

[InfiniteCuts]

Hybrid system is best, with cooldown for standard ammunition and thermal clips for specialized ammo. This replaces the god-awful ammo talents and gives the player a choice: stick with your standard ammo and see if you can survive from this little perch you like so much, or move you #@! and find some armor-piercing rounds over by that dead merc.

This also separates capacity from thermal clips all together, making things less confusing/arbitrary in general. Example: Widow lets off two standard rounds before requiring 5-10 seconds of cooldown (depending on weapon type and/or mods). You want to take off that mech's head a little faster? That'll cost you one Tungsten round and 10 seconds of cooldown minimum. Special ammunition available for all, though limited.

Modifié par InfiniteCuts, 01 mai 2011 - 01:40 .

[Dr. Nexas]

Didn't Bioware already try a hybrid system, but dropped it because it sucked?